Author Topic: primitives argue over their favorite president from the 19th century  (Read 1176 times)

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Offline franksolich

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Oh my.

Listening to the primitives jibber-jabber about history is like.....listening to the primitives jibber-jabber about economics, civics, sociology, religion, and just about anything else.

Darth_Kitten  (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:05 PM
Original message

Name your favourite 19th century President........and why they are.

Have some fun with history.

faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. This won't be close.
after which a photograph of Abraham Lincoln

TahitiNut  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Wanna bet???

after which a photograph of Thomas Jefferson

faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yup. And that's no criticism of Jefferson. But as a president, not close.

TahitiNut  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #4

12. Jefferson DOUBLED the size of the US (without war) and Liincoln nearly HALVED it. 

... with the bloodiest war in our history.

Is this, above, gator's mole?

faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #12

15. He saved the Union. Others tried to "halve it." 

You obviously have a problem with Lincoln.

Ever read this, his Second Inaugural? I suggest you do so. By the way, Lincoln loved Jefferson, and he enshrined the ideals of the Declaration into the fiber of this nation. They are not competitors, they are complementary. But it's ugly to blame Lincoln for the Civil War:

after which a long account of March 4, 1865, the second inaugural of Lincoln

lastliberalintexas  (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #15

19. By doing many of the things we criticize Bush for doing 

Illegal prisons, torture of POWs, suspension of habeas. Lincoln wouldn't listen to those who thought that the South should be left to secede and then die the slow, painful death sure to doom its agrarian economy. Instead, he and the Unionists insisted on a bloody and very likely unnecessary war that left generations unable or unwilling to embrace the other regions of the US. Though I do believe that reconstruction would have been much, much better if he had not been murdered.

Lincoln did do a great many things, but I can't imagine him being placed above either Jefferson or Madison. Madison has to be the most underrated president we've had thus far.

truedelphi  (1000+ posts)       Wed Feb-06-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #19

25. And an almost identical situation in grabbing immigrants

And forcing them into the Army - In Lincoln's day it was the Irish just off the boats in NY harbors, and in our day it is recruiters going to Central America and painting a rosy picture of how wonderful the cash flow will be when they are in Iraq. No mention of the dangers, or how little soldiers are really paid.

And then pops in franksolich's new primitive, the lupine ferris-wheel primitive:

fenriswolf  (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. teddy roosavelt

the teddy bear was named after him

he was an original "rough rider"

He got shot before a speech and stayed to finish half of it before passing out.

he was "bully"

*edit: not my favorite president but my favorite charecter who was a president.

after which a photograph of Theodore Roosevelt

Uh-oh; the lupine ferris-wheel primitive gets owned:

faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #2

8. He was all those things. He was also president 1901-1909. 

19th century, my friend.


after which another photogrpah of the first Roosevelt

TahitiNut  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message

5. Jefferson ... by a mile. 

Two terms ... scholar ... liberal ... the Founder with the greatest impact on EVERYTHING having to do with Human Rights and Civil Liberties.


faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Slowly, now: We are talking presidents here. Presidents.   

Again, all due respect to Thomas Jefferson. But as PRESIDENT, Lincoln was the greatest.

Thothmes (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #5

16. except the institution of chattel slavery

TahitiNut  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16

22. Jefferson abolished the Atlantic slave trade. 

We must remember that Jefferson fought the Federalist view of national government and, to the degree he was successful, he built the foundation upon which eventual abolition was enacted. During Jefferson's Presidency we got Marbury vs. Madison ... which more fully established SCOTUS at the pinnacle of the Judiciary and thus fleshed out a viable third branch of government with the power to balance the Legislative and Executive.

IMHO, it's really not valid to assume equivalent Presidential powers when comparing Jefferson to later (and even much later) Presidents, since Jefferson was so instrumental in even creating those balanced powers in the federal government while preserving and strengthening the inviolability of individual rights. It was, imho, a deft and highly intelligent course he charted.

Thothmes (1000+ posts)      Wed Feb-06-08 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #22

24. Actually he did not abolish the Atlantic slave trade

What he did was sign the legislation that prohibited the importation of slaves into the United States. This action had been authorized in the Constitution of the United States, before Jefferson became the President. Slaves were still imported into the Caribbean and South America. The Royal Navy was what actually ended the Atlantic slave trade, aided by the United States Navy in the 1820s.

And then the false oracle primitive pays homage to "diversity":

truedelphi  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message

7. My fave President would be Jefferson, for so many reasons
But I include Tecumseh as another great 19th century leader, despite his being considered a minor Native American tribal leader.

He said the following:

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.

Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life.

Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people.

Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.

Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely
place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living.

If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.

Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

—Chief Tecumseh, Shawnee Nation, quoted in Lee Sulzman, "Shawnee History"

apocalypsehow (79 posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message

9. Thomas Jefferson, with Abraham Lincoln a close second.

I work for workers (356 posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message

13. He's not my favorite, but I think Grant is underrated as a president.

And as a general for that matter. He did a lot to curtail the KKK during his presidency.

Now, the idle primitive, above, HAS to be a mole.

faygokid  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #13

14. He is underrated as president. He kept the troops in the South during reconstruction. 

Grant genuinely fought to protect our black citizens from the depredations they faced during Reconstruction.

He made mistakes as president, but he was a personally honest man who tried to do the right thing. After he left office, the troops also left, and the horrors of Jim Crow took over for the next 90 years in the South.

He was also the first great modern general, and there is one hell of an underrated statue of him outside the Capitol - one of the finest statues in America.

after which a photograph of Ulysses Grant

lastliberalintexas  (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #13

20. Not necessarily underrated

But certainly dismissed from any "greatest" list because of the rampant corruption in his administration. Almost makes Bush II look clean.

JDPriestly  (1000+ posts)       Tue Feb-05-08 09:52 PM
Response to Original message

18. James Madison

Because he wrote a good portion of the Federalist Papers, was one of the leading authors of the Constitution and scribe and note-taker of the Constitutional Convention, pretty much authored the Bill of Rights and pushed it through Congress and, after having been double-crossed by the British with regard to trade and the boarding of American vessels and taking prisoners by the British Navy, finished the fight for American sovereignty and independence from England. Also, because he married Dolly Madison one of our great First Ladies.

And then the roddy lad primitive explains what criteria's necessary for the primitives, when rating a president:

Rowdyboy (1000+ posts)      Tue Feb-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message

 21. James Buchanan aka "Aunt Fancy"-the first gay president!

after which a photograph of James Buchanan

In 1819 Buchanan was engaged to Ann Caroline Coleman, the daughter of a wealthy iron manufacturing businessman and sister-in-law of Philadelphia judge Joseph Hemphill, a colleague of Buchanan's from the House of Representatives. However, Buchanan spent little time with her during the courtship; Buchanan was extremely busy with his law firm and political projects at the time, taking him away from Coleman for weeks at a time. Conflicting rumors abounded, opining that he was marrying for her money as he came from a less affluent family, or that he was involved with other women. Buchanan, for his part, never publicly spoke of his motives or feelings, however, letters from Ann revealed she was paying heed to the rumors, and after Buchanan paid a visit to the wife of a friend, Ann broke off the engagement. Ann soon after died; the records of Dr. Chapman, who looked after Ann in her final hours, and who said just after her passing that this was "the first instance he ever knew of hysteria producing death," reveal that he theorized the woman's demise was caused by an overdose of laudanum.

His fiancée's death struck Buchanan. In a letter to her father – which was returned to him unopened – Buchanan said "It is now no time for explanation, but the time will come when you will discover that she, as well as I, have been much abused. God forgive the authors of it... I may sustain the shock of her death, but I feel that happiness has fled from me forever." The Coleman family became bitter towards Buchanan, and denied him a place at Ann's funeral. Buchanan vowed he would never marry, though he continued to be flirtatious, and some pressed him to seek a wife. In response he said "Marry he could not, for his affections were buried in the grave." He preserved Ann Coleman's letters, kept them with him throughout his life, and requested they be burned upon his death.

For fifteen years in Washington, D.C., prior to his presidency, Buchanan lived with his close friend, Alabama Senator William Rufus King. King became Vice President under Franklin Pierce. He took ill and died shortly after Pierce's inauguration, and four years before Buchanan became President. Buchanan and King's close relation prompted Andrew Jackson to refer to King as "Miss Nancy" and "Aunt Fancy," while Aaron V. Brown spoke of the two as "Buchanan and his wife." Further, some of the contemporary press also speculated about Buchanan and King's relationship. Buchanan and King's nieces destroyed their uncles' correspondence, leaving some questions as to what relationship the two men had, but surviving letters illustrate "the affection of a special friendship", and Buchanan wrote of his "communion" with his housemate. Such expression, however, was not unusual amongst men at the time. Though the circumstances surrounding Buchanan and King have led some to speculate that he was America's first homosexual president, there is currently no evidence that King and Buchanan had a sexual relationship.

The only President never to marry, Buchanan turned to Harriet Lane, an orphaned niece whom he had earlier adopted, to act as his First Lady. "I feel that it is not good for man to be alone", he wrote, "and should not be astonished to find myself married to some old maid who can nurse me when I am sick, provide good dinners for me when I am well, and not expect from me any very ardent or romantic affection."

Yeah, gaiety's important to the primitives.
apres moi, le deluge