Author Topic: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush  (Read 10992 times)

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Offline megimoo

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Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« on: January 22, 2009, 07:28:37 PM »
 Modern liberalism shows remarkably little concern for freedom, democracy, and the will of the people if it's not politically expedient, but now some of the most influential members of the Democratic Party are starting to drift towards outright fascism with the suggestion that members of the Bush Administration should be jailed once they leave power.

For example, we have Paul Krugman caterwauling that Bush should be investigated for his policy on the environment, voting rights issues, political appointees, contracts in Iraq, and because ludicrously, Krugman claims Bush "deliberately misled the nation into invading Iraq."

Furthermore, John Conyers has spoken of going after the Bush Administration for "illegal wiretapping, torture, detention, and other practices (that) could land some members in an international tribunal."

Additionally, Vice-President Joe Biden and House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi have both declared that they're also open to prosecuting members of the Bush Administration.

Let's be very clear what these Democrats want to do: because they hate George Bush and the Republican Party, they're proposing partisan witch hunts in search of a crime that they can use to jail members of the Bush Administration. In other words, this has nothing to do with anyone, including the President, being "above the law." We're not talking about perjury, bribery, corruption, a Nixonian break-in, or some other real crime.

To the contrary, what we're really discussing is the party in power abusing their office to try to jail their political opponents over policy differences. Put another way, it's the sort of thing we'd expect to see in Putin's Russia, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, or Castro's Cuba -- not in the United States of America.

snip

Trying to prosecute key Bush Administration officials on what are viewed as trumped up, politically based charges would create a firestorm of partisanship and outright hatred that would surpass anything in American history since the Civil War. Members of a political party in the United States, whether it be Republican or Democrat, are simply not going to stand by idly with their hands in their pockets while their political views are criminalized.

At best, this would lead to tit-for-tat prosecutions. By that, I mean if Democrats throw George W. Bush in jail for ten years, Republicans will do their best to find an excuse to throw Barack Obama in jail for ten years -- and don't think it can't happen. The American political system tends to be cyclical and so today the Democrats may be on top -- but in four to eight years, when Obama leaves office, it's entirely possible the GOP could be in charge of both Houses of Congress -- and looking for an opportunity to get payback for Bush. Again, that is the best case scenario. The worst case scenario could mean blood in the streets, riots, and a breakdown of the "orderly transfer of power" that has always been a hallmark of American democracy.

One of the reasons that has never been an issue previously is precisely because the loss of power for an American politician doesn't mean that he's threatened with the loss of his life or liberty. If we throw the rule of law out the window and leaving office may mean a prison sentence or worse, those "orderly transfers of power" we have in this country are going to begin to break down -- and politicians will use any means necessary to remain in charge. It's understandable if that sounds farfetched since events of that sort haven't happened on a widespread scale here since the Civil War, but there are many nations across the world where a change of leadership is a terrifying and violent ordeal for the populace. There's very little to be said for potentially joining their ranks.

However, if Krugman, Conyers, Pelosi, Biden and Company get their way and we abandon a practice that has helped assure political stability for more than two centuries in this country, then we should not be surprised if America starts to experience the same troubles as the unstable banana republics that we've always urged to follow our example. That would be a truly disastrous turning point for our democracy and that's why it's highly irresponsible for Democratic officials to even publicly speculate about going down that dark and perilous road.
 


http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/01/20/endangering_american_democracy_to_go_after_bush


Offline Chris_

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 07:37:13 PM »
A great expose of just how childish the democratic party is...
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Offline Hawkgirl

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 08:04:56 PM »
Unfortunately for us, today's democratic leaders are stupid and arrogant enough to believe they will remain in power forever.  They live in a delusional bubble.  I fear something like this will happen.  It's not country over party for them.

Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 08:39:57 PM »
I see one of two things happening.
1) its all talk. Democrats will do nothing.
2) They will do this, and they will be destroyed as a result.

in either scenario, democrats will come across as cowards.

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 11:07:55 PM »
Talk about a slippery slope right there.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 11:31:05 PM »
The DEM party hasn't given a shite about freedom, democracy, and the will of the people for decades.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 01:06:54 AM »
I see one of two things happening.
1) its all talk. Democrats will do nothing.
2) They will do this, and they will be destroyed as a result.

in either scenario, democrats will come across as cowards.

I agree with the two paths, however I believe the MSM will simply not talk at all about the particular fanatics like Conyers if it goes through Door #1, and the most that will ever be said is that 'Certain elements' of the Demoncrat party were 'dissatisfied' at the "More restrained, moderate and statesmanlike approach of their distinguished leaders."   
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Offline Redstatecka

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
Islamofascists and other terrorists, everywhere, domestic and foreign, already must be tired of their daily ROTFLMAO parties. And they must be fatigued to have already given so many thanks to Allah or whatever other false god(s) they worship.

Why?

For seeing how the U.S. Congress and White House are now full of the majority called Democrats. And how these doofuses appear to be hell-bent on destablizing the U.S. and its security.

Giod help us all.
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Offline Miss Begotten

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2009, 04:38:27 AM »
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.

 
Quote
We're not talking about perjury, bribery, corruption, a Nixonian break-in, or some other real crime.

 Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 04:59:05 AM »
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.

 
 Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!

Normally, I'm polite with ladies but since you're a liberal and insist on being treated the same as men...

You're an idiot.

No one lied us into a war. The senate intelligence oversight committee was established to prevent just such an episode.

No one is being tortured. The techniques used to break the worst of the jihadists have been used on any US service member attending SERE IV training.

No one profitted from the war for the sake of oil. Why would anyone waste the time, money and political capital to fake an entire war when a simple executive order would unlock the oil reserves this nation is floating on top of?

There were no illegal wiretaps. Foreign citizens do not have a constituional right to use US phone line to faciliate the killing of Americans even if one of their conspirators is also an American.

No one is being held illegally. People who were civilian clothes, hide their weapons, do not answer to a central national authority and who deliberately target non-combatants are war criminals and as such the Geneva Convention says they have NO rights.



The fact of the matter is: the dems realized idiots like you like to protest the war so those idiots curry favor from you idiots and you idiots hate Bush for no other reason than he beat the even bigger idiot Algore in 2000 fair and square. It galls you to think someone not so eloquent who actually goes to church for sincere reasons (as opposed to hiding semen-stained dresses or cursing the US) beat out that fat slob enviro-fraud.

There were no crimes.

If you want to prosecute real war criminals you wuld be supporting the GWoT.

But I'll meet you halfway:

If a jihadist ever took you prisoner and was cutting out your eyes before sawing off your worthless head I would NOT waterboard him or wiretap his phones to affect your rescue. I think you should meet you end--even if slow, pain and gruesome--knowing full well your smug sense of self-satisfied moral superiority remains unblemished.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:13:55 AM by Mr Snuggle Bunny »
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Offline Miss Begotten

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2009, 05:22:09 AM »
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you. 

 

Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us?  So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?

Offline docstew

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2009, 05:44:19 AM »
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you. 

 

Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us?  So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?


I'm sorry, when have we subjected those we have captured to starvation (virtually all Japanese POW camps), forced marches (Bataan), forced labor for war reasons (virtually all Japanese POW camps, and a violation of Geneva Conventions), poor medical care (rampant malaria at many Japanese POW camps), or held as hostages (Cabanatuan)? Japanese War Crimes

The truth is, most (if not all) of those we capture are captured on the field of battle while they are actively engaged in combat with American troops.  They are not uniformed or responsive to a central headquarters.  They are not the armed force of any recognized country.  Therefore, they are not accorded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.

Those illegal combatants (as they would be classified in the Geneva Conventions) who are held at Guantanamo have, on average, gained 15 pounds from the nutritious food provided (that, btw, meets the dietary laws for their religion), have a clinic that is better than the one for the guards, have religious material provided for them, opportunities for recreation, etc.  We have released more detainees from Guantanamo than we currently hold (and about 10% of those have been killed on the battlefield in combat with US troops)

These are the facts:  even though those we capture have no protections under the Geneva Conventions, we treat them as if they do.  They would not hesitate to torture or kill any American they capture, and we do not retaliate against those we hold captive.

I welcome your attempts to debate these facts.

Offline djones520

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 05:45:54 AM »
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you. 

 

Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us?  So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?


Ringo, when your banned that means your not welcome here.  We don't take kindly to you threatening members.

And I know your not going to start this waterboarding/water cure crap up again after I womped your ass about it over at CU.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:47:41 AM by djones520 »
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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 05:49:23 AM »
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you. 

Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us?  So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
Civility?

It ain't civil to make amorphious, deliberately ambiguous allegations is hardly civil. In other words: you first. Otherwise, take your lame excuse for not have a valid resposne back to whatever liberal cess pool you oozed from. If I talk roughly its because my life is rough; I've broken 8 bones in the last year alone and still get up every morning at 0130 to work like an animal in sub-zero weather and when I do my army time I can still outrun punks half my age.

Civility? I got civility drunk, poked it in the *** and told it to walk home on its 18th birthday.

At least you're allowed to stay which is more than we'd get out of DU. Typical lib: give me what I want how I want it or I'm not going to finish what I started. It's a cheap cop-out for, "damn, I didn't expect an answer to my professor's latest talking point." If you can't play here just admit it and get out of our sandbox.

But to address your lame false analogy:

To try and place the US on the same level as Japan c. 1939 is a slander to both the US and the victims of Japanese imperialism. Iraq is not Nanking. Abu Ghraib is not the Bataan Death March. Gitmo is not a Philipine internment camps.
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Offline Miss Begotten

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 05:56:04 AM »
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact.  What is DU?  I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned. 

Offline Thor

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2009, 06:06:08 AM »
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact.  What is DU?  I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned. 


Hmmm, somewhere I missed where someone "swore at you". It's early, so I may have overlooked it.
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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2009, 06:09:30 AM »
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact.  What is DU?  I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned. 
Is that ALL we prosecuted the japs for?

As I noted, virtually every attendee of the SERE IV course gets waterboarded...and worse.

If it's OK to do to train US service personnel why is it so bad to do to unawful combatants trying to mass murder civilians?

And you act as if it is common place. It's rare and used only with great exception. To date only a dozen or so have been waterboarded. Tell us nancy? On 9/12/2001 what was more important: not waterboarding or no more WTC-type attacks?

BTW - You libtards made great noise in 2004 about Chimpler McBushburton not having served in combat thus not being allowed to be CinC (odd how that fell off this past election cycle) but you want to discuss war in soft cozy terms. We're talking about a process wherein people are mutilated to death. There is no nice way to talk about it and its horror should never be dulled.

Grow a set you ****ing whining *****. Gawd, I'd love to get you into basic training (the real stuff, not this marshamallow shit they have going on today).
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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2009, 06:10:19 AM »
Hmmm, somewhere I missed where someone "swore at you". It's early, so I may have overlooked it.
It's lib-speak for, "I got nothing. I need a way out. LOOK A BABY GIRAFFE!"
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2009, 09:06:21 AM »
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact.  What is DU?  I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned. 


We prosecuted the Japs for beheading american POW's with swords, using live POW's for bayonet practice, germ and chemical warfare experiments, and medical experiments that entailed gutting them while alive and very much awake. ...and we didn't prosecute and hang all of them that did that. The Jap car you're probably driving was for 40 years headed by a WW2 war criminal of the worst sort.

Why don't you liberals read some history sometimes?
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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2009, 09:16:36 AM »
Why don't you liberals read some history sometimes?
Because making it up as you go along is much quicker and politically expedient.
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Offline Red October

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2009, 09:35:38 AM »
Just a reminder, in case you liberals forgot:

Quote
Japanese POW camps

Tojo's orders regarding POWs was very clear. Guards "must supervise their charges rigidly, taking care not to become obsessed with mistaken ideas of humanitarianism or swayed by personal feelings toward prisoners that might grow over a long incarceration." (50) Rarely did top government officials visit any Japanese prison camps. Therefore, the local commanders could do as they wished without reprimand. However, considering the indoctrination of Japanese troops, reprimand was highly unlikely. If the commander wished, he could make anything, even whistling, a crime and inflict any type of punishment, including execution. (51)

The Geneva Convention stated that if a prisoner escaped and was recaptured, he was not to be punished. However, the Japanese did not care. The POWs were forced to sign non-escape oaths soon after they reached the POW camps. They signed at the advice of their officers with the secret understanding that the oaths were not morally binding. Escapes were rare. Any re-captured escapees were executed. Not only were they killed in front of the other POWs, but ten additional POWs were executed as well. While some officers knew the Geneva Convention said it was their duty to escape, many did not know this and the rest did not want to have the POWs left behind to suffer for their actions should they get caught. Therefore, few escapes were attempted. Fewer still succeeded. (52) Successful escapees, such as Dyess, were the rare exception and not the rule.

The Japanese tried to get some POWs to turn on their comrades or tell military secrets. POWs selected would be questioned for hours. Others would receive good treatment for a day, in the hopes that they would be more willing to talk. Most did not cooperate with their captors. (53)

There were over 140,000 white POWs in Japanese prison camps. They received the harshest treatment of all.

One in three died in captivity at the hands of the Japanese, starved to death, worked to death, beaten to death, dead of loathsome epidemic diseases that the Japanese would not treat. From the beginning, what the Japanese did to their prisoners, body and soul, was humanly appalling. Even so, the prisoners stayed and took it. For them the stakes were: try to escape, with the chances of suffering and dying almost a hundred percent, or stay with what turned out to be a two-to-one chance of surviving. The final gross score was: died trying to escape, next to none; died as prisoners, tens of thousands. (54)





Quote
The atrocities committed by the Japanese were not ignored. Justice had to be served, though nothing could ever be true justice for the victims, survivors, and their families. There were three classifications for war criminals. A Class was the top officials. The International Military Tribunal of the Far East, (IMTFE), tried them. B and C Class criminals were tried by the Allied nations in the areas where the crimes occurred.

The top Japanese war criminal was Tojo Hideki, Japan's war minister and Prime Minister. It was under his orders and with his blessing that the atrocities were committed against the POWs. He made an unsuccessful suicide attempt after Japan surrendered. On December 8, 1945, he was sent to Sugamo Prison in Tokyo as an A Class war criminal. He was executed on December 23, 1948.

Yamashita Tomoyuki also received a death sentence. He was the Japanese Army commander who faced MacArthur as the war ended. His death is significant because, "he was the first ever high level officer of a defeated army to be tried by the victors for command responsibility, specifically for atrocities committed by his troops in the Philippines." (57)

Homma Masaharu, the Japanese general before Bataan fell, was charged with "bombing Manila after it was declared an open city, refusing quarter to the American troops on Corregidor, and - specifically concerning POWs - allowing the massive atrocities of the death march out of Bataan, and the disgusting atrocities at O'Donnell and Cabanatuan that followed." (58) In April 1946 he was executed by a firing squad and not allowed to wear his military uniform.

While hundreds were accused of war crimes, a little over two dozen were tried and sentenced. Over 300,000 Japanese were charged as B and C Class criminals, but all were not tried due to their vast numbers. Over 5,700 were brought to trial. Trials lasted anywhere from days to months. Sentences ranged from prison terms to executions. Only seven A Class criminals were put to death, four due to their treatment of POWs.

"Twenty-five A Class criminals were convicted and sentenced, seven of them to death, sixteen to life. Five thousand seven hundred-plus B and C Class criminals were brought to trials, about 3,000 were convicted and sentenced, 920 were executed." (59)
This is roughly equal to one Japanese sentence for every fifty POWs held for three-and-one-half years (over 150,000) and one executed for every 250-plus who died due to atrocities (almost 232,000). The Japanese did not believe their sentences were just, saying it was only Allied revenge. (60)

Japan's emperor, Hirohito, remained in power.

http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/st/~ehimchak/POW_camps.html

Now, in light of all this, I hope you find it as incredulous as I to blithely say "We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding," and to compare our operation at Gitmo with WWII prison camps.  I mean, honestly!  Even the most cursory examination of documented history should blow that idiotic claim out of the water. 
 

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2009, 09:36:45 AM »
Miss BeHave.....why don't you do a yahoo search for  The Bataan Death March, Unit 731, Unit 501, Unit 100, Japanese Death Ships, Rape of Nanking.......etc.

When you're finished reading you might ....just might....have an idea of what real torture is.

Waterboarding....hahahahahahaha....the Japanese should have been so civilized.

  
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2009, 10:37:13 AM »
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.

They don't want to punish them.  That's the problem.

The Democrat Party elects them to public office.

 
 
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Offline docstew

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2009, 10:44:11 AM »
They don't want to punish them.  That's the problem.

The Democrat Party elects them to public office.

 
 

Why shouldn't we want to subvert the Constitution?  It's a fundamentally flawed document. [/Obama]  :banghead: :puke:

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Re: Endangering American Democracy to Go After Bush
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2009, 10:56:21 AM »
Why shouldn't we want to subvert the Constitution?  It's a fundamentally flawed document. [/Obama]  :banghead: :puke:
Whoopie Goldberg told McCain if he appointed originalist judges she'd be a slave again.
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