What would you do?

[djones520]

So I've seen it countless times on here and other sites like it pointing out how people like John Edwards are responsible for driving up health care costs with their litigation.

But at what point is it justified to hold the medical profession liable for their **** ups?

One of my best friends was forced to wait two weeks beyond her due date with her baby.  She asked to be induced, and even requested a c-section but they kept telling her no.  Finally the babies heart beat begins to fail, and their forced to do an emergency c-section.  Now she has to spend the first week on oxygen.  When my wife was pregnant with our son, our Dr. told us that they will not let the baby stay in past 10 days after the due date, because it gets to become to big of a risk for the baby.  She told us that the exact thing that happend to my friends baby is what could happen.  On top of that, now her incision is badly infected, and I'm praying it's not a Staph infection.

So when is enough enough?  At what point does the Dr's negligence need to be punished?  Because the Dr waited so damn long, the life of my friends daughter was put in danger.  Because of the hospitals negligence in following up with an invasive surgery, she may have a life threatening infection.

I'm beyond furious at this hospital, and I've advised she find a lawyer.  Is that wrong?

[MrsSmith]

It might be better for her to start with the Patient Representative at the hospital.  Some places are now starting a new program called "Sorry Works" in which they do an internal review of their mistakes...and often go ahead and make some financial offer, if they're following the program correctly. 

If she gets no satisfaction that way, then a lawyer is good back-up.  It's undeniable that we mess up sometimes...and we should be held accountable.  Even medical staff are starting to realize that...hence the program mentioned above.

[rich_t]

So I've seen it countless times on here and other sites like it pointing out how people like John Edwards are responsible for driving up health care costs with their litigation.

But at what point is it justified to hold the medical profession liable for their **** ups?

One of my best friends was forced to wait two weeks beyond her due date with her baby.  She asked to be induced, and even requested a c-section but they kept telling her no.  Finally the babies heart beat begins to fail, and their forced to do an emergency c-section.  Now she has to spend the first week on oxygen.  When my wife was pregnant with our son, our Dr. told us that they will not let the baby stay in past 10 days after the due date, because it gets to become to big of a risk for the baby.  She told us that the exact thing that happend to my friends baby is what could happen.  On top of that, now her incision is badly infected, and I'm praying it's not a Staph infection.

So when is enough enough?  At what point does the Dr's negligence need to be punished?  Because the Dr waited so damn long, the life of my friends daughter was put in danger.  Because of the hospitals negligence in following up with an invasive surgery, she may have a life threatening infection.

I'm beyond furious at this hospital, and I've advised she find a lawyer.  Is that wrong?

In the example you just provided, I think suggesting she consult a lawyer is good advice.    Two weeks after the due date is a long time.  Especially this day and age were tools like ultrasound scans are available to help a doctor track a baby's development in the womb.  Even 21 years ago when my youngest child was born, 10 days beyond the due date was considered the limit.

Do you know why her OB made her wait so long?

[franksolich]

No, it's not wrong.

Medical personnel, being human, make mistakes.....and while many of those mistakes are simply normal human errors, some of those mistakes are caused by unprofessional irritation, caprice, or selfishness.

There was, for example, one physician up on the Native American reservations in southwestern South Dakota, who was notorious for doing Caesarians prematurely just because he wanted to go play golf down in Arizona.

Physicians deserve vacations just as much as anybody else, but that was rather too much.

Around here, there's many on social security disability because they're "depressed"--and all their physicians do is increasingly prescribe more pharmaceuticals in increasingly large doses, nothing more than that, just to get them out of the office.

If one thinks a physician, or any other medical professional, has erred simply out of laziness or caprice or convenience, one should seek legal redress, I think.

Of course, part of the problem is that patients don't argue with physicians; I strongly encourage them to do so, but it's like yelling into the wind.

[Chris_]

Sorry, friend, until I hear from the Doctor I can't give a proper evaluation of the situation.

I am hearing A led to H without hearing A led to B let to C so I did D which caused.... through to H.  I have found that doctors suffer more from inability to communicate than from just screwing up what appears to be something so straightforward.

I am suspicious of malpractice, especially in the Ob/Gyn area.  Do you know some states are having such an Ob/Gyn shortage, completely due to claims and awards, that people in thiose states need to go to the next state over to get basic Ob/Gyn care?

I am not saying your friend is wrong in what she is saying, nor in her actions -- but a lawyer immediately puts the situation into a confrontational stance and the medical "truth" may never be known.

[rich_t]

Sorry, friend, until I hear from the Doctor I can't give a proper evaluation of the situation.

I am hearing A led to H without hearing A led to B let to C so I did D which caused.... through to H.  I have found that doctors suffer more from inability to communicate than from just screwing up what appears to be something so straightforward.

I am suspicious of malpractice, especially in the Ob/Gyn area.  Do you know some states are having such an Ob/Gyn shortage, completely due to claims and awards, that people in thiose states need to go to the next state over to get basic Ob/Gyn care?

I am not saying your friend is wrong in what she is saying, nor in her actions -- but a lawyer immediately puts the situation into a confrontational stance and the medical "truth" may never be known.

I'm pretty sure that the doctor won't be posting here FD.

[Chris_]

I'm pretty sure that the doctor won't be posting here FD.

You are probably right, but that doesn't change the quandry.

[Zeus]

So I've seen it countless times on here and other sites like it pointing out how people like John Edwards are responsible for driving up health care costs with their litigation.

But at what point is it justified to hold the medical profession liable for their **** ups?

One of my best friends was forced to wait two weeks beyond her due date with her baby.  She asked to be induced, and even requested a c-section but they kept telling her no.  Finally the babies heart beat begins to fail, and their forced to do an emergency c-section.  Now she has to spend the first week on oxygen.  When my wife was pregnant with our son, our Dr. told us that they will not let the baby stay in past 10 days after the due date, because it gets to become to big of a risk for the baby.  She told us that the exact thing that happend to my friends baby is what could happen.  On top of that, now her incision is badly infected, and I'm praying it's not a Staph infection.

So when is enough enough?  At what point does the Dr's negligence need to be punished?  Because the Dr waited so damn long, the life of my friends daughter was put in danger.  Because of the hospitals negligence in following up with an invasive surgery, she may have a life threatening infection.

I'm beyond furious at this hospital, and I've advised she find a lawyer.  Is that wrong?

This the only Docter in the area. Second opinions or consults are available.  Sure the Dr. is the expert and one should be faith in & rely on his/her medical prognosious but when in doubt then the burden is transferred to the patient. Another Dr's opinion is cheaper than a lawyer and healthier for the patient.

[DumbAss Tanker]

She needs to talk to a lawyer, and not sign anything waiving her right to sue in the meantime.  The doc would have to have one hell of an explanation for refusing to induce her for two weeks after the due date.  The fact that docs and patient administrators are almost pathologically unable to admit they screwed up generally makes trying to get a straight-up explanation futile, but it does make it easier for the plaintiffs' lawyers.

The "Sorry works" thing does exist, but almost no medical facility will actually front the additional costs caused by their own mistakes, so if those are substantial or the patient just doesn't want to suck them up even if they're minor, it's all for the docs and their insurers and no benefit whatsoever for the patient -- unless you are dealing with a truly unusual doc. 

[rich_t]

You are probably right, but that doesn't change the quandry.

There is no quandry IMO here.  Merely consulting a lawyer does not mean the woman in question will sue.  She will merely be exploring the options available to her.

[Chris_]

There is no quandry IMO here.  Merely consulting a lawyer does not mean the woman in question will sue.  She will merely be exploring the options available to her.

It is probably a good first step.  But frequently "exploring options" with a lawyer = gonna sue. Otherwise, what is in it for the lawyer?

I guess I am suggesting a light step and broad vision.  The upthread suggestion of getting with a Patent's Representative is also a good avenue.

[MrsSmith]

She needs to talk to a lawyer, and not sign anything waiving her right to sue in the meantime.  The doc would have to have one hell of an explanation for refusing to induce her for two weeks after the due date.  The fact that docs and patient administrators are almost pathologically unable to admit they screwed up generally makes trying to get a straight-up explanation futile, but it does make it easier for the plaintiffs' lawyers.

The "Sorry works" thing does exist, but almost no medical facility will actually front the additional costs caused by their own mistakes, so if those are substantial or the patient just doesn't want to suck them up even if they're minor, it's all for the docs and their insurers and no benefit whatsoever for the patient -- unless you are dealing with a truly unusual doc. 

As I understand the Sorry Works program, money is supposed to be part of the apology.  The speaker that came to our facility made it quite clear that many people would be reasonably satisfied with the doctor and hospital merely explaining their mistake, apologizing, and listing the steps taken to insure the mistake will not happen again...BUT because hospitals have for so long been completely unwilling to admit mistakes, the medical industry has made money part of the issue.  Therefore, the medical industry needs to continue to make money part of the apology.  

If the lady in the OP does go to the Patient Representative in the hospital, and IF the hospital is one that has adopted the Sorry Works program, then they should investigate honestly, admit fault, and offer financial renumeration of some amount.

As a patient and family member, I find myself sceptical about this posibility...but as a healthcare worker, I know with certainty that the administration of my hospital is very determined to follow this program to the letter.  After all, the hospital gains also.  Not only do they save legal fees, but they also gain a reputation for honesty in their community...something that all hospitals need.  Healthcare facilities all have to remember that people can go elsewhere for all those elective things that actually make money.

[Chris_]

As I understand the Sorry Works program, money is supposed to be part of the apology.  The speaker that came to our facility made it quite clear that many people would be reasonably satisfied with the doctor and hospital merely explaining their mistake, apologizing, and listing the steps taken to insure the mistake will not happen again...BUT because hospitals have for so long been completely unwilling to admit mistakes, the medical industry has made money part of the issue.  Therefore, the medical industry needs to continue to make money part of the apology.  

If the lady in the OP does go to the Patient Representative in the hospital, and IF the hospital is one that has adopted the Sorry Works program, then they should investigate honestly, admit fault, and offer financial renumeration of some amount.

As a patient and family member, I find myself sceptical about this posibility...but as a healthcare worker, I know with certainty that the administration of my hospital is very determined to follow this program to the letter.  After all, the hospital gains also.  Not only do they save legal fees, but they also gain a reputation for honesty in their community...something that all hospitals need.  Healthcare facilities all have to remember that people can go elsewhere for all those elective things that actually make money.

Personally, I think it is much better to listen to Mrs. Smith than me on this.  My posts are based on ideology and a bit of historical stuff.  She clearly knows of which she speaks.  Not that I am backing off on my position -- this would be the "wide vision" of which I spoke (or at least that is my stand and I am sticking to it).

If I was you I would spend a LOT of time PMing Mrs. Smith -- but any additional info that can be shared with the rest of us would be greatly appreciated.

[rich_t]

It is probably a good first step.  But frequently "exploring options" with a lawyer = gonna sue. Otherwise, what is in it for the lawyer?

I guess I am suggesting a light step and broad vision.  The upthread suggestion of getting with a Patent's Representative is also a good avenue.

I understand what you are trying to convey and I agree with the concept.  I don't have any 1st hand experience with the "Sorry Works Program".  But I do not have a lot of faith in most "patient advocate" programs.

[MrsSmith]

I understand what you are trying to convey and I agree with the concept.  I don't have any 1st hand experience with the "Sorry Works Program".  But I do not have a lot of faith in most "patient advocate" programs.

Yeah, I fully sympathize.  I've been angry enough at treatment of my own family members to have talked to a lawyer.  But I think a lot of places are FINALLY getting the message that we're not perfect...and it's really stupid and expensive to hide behind a brick wall when we blow it.  And, as a healthcare worker, I have to say that one of my jobs is to turn my fellow employees in when they blow it...and I do.  I'll write a variance the moment I have any proof someone blew it.

[ReardenSteel]

So when is enough enough?  At what point does the Dr's negligence need to be punished?  Because the Dr waited so damn long, the life of my friends daughter was put in danger.  Because of the hospitals negligence in following up with an invasive surgery, she may have a life threatening infection.

I'm beyond furious at this hospital, and I've advised she find a lawyer.  Is that wrong?

Negligence ought to be punished quickly and harshly. By all means talk to a lawyer if you want to and please do it guilt free.

I have no special knowledge of law or medicine but I can tell you this. My problem with the kind of Lawyer that John Edwards was has nothing to do with what you describe. Edwards used bogus science and emotional appeal in seeking a so called "justice" for his clients then pimped himself as a man of the people after taking the lions share of what he won in court for his clients.

Just because some Lawyers are snakes does not mean others, or even most, are such. I wish you and your friend the best. Prayers for the baby.

[MrsSmith]

Personally, I think it is much better to listen to Mrs. Smith than me on this.  My posts are based on ideology and a bit of historical stuff.  She clearly knows of which she speaks.  Not that I am backing off on my position -- this would be the "wide vision" of which I spoke (or at least that is my stand and I am sticking to it).

If I was you I would spend a LOT of time PMing Mrs. Smith -- but any additional info that can be shared with the rest of us would be greatly appreciated.

I'm not sure I'd know anything that would be of any more help than the suggestion to start at the hospital, and save the lawyer for step 2.  I have worked in healthcare for 14 years now, but I work on equipment, not with people, so I'm not at all "on the front lines."  IF this facility has gotten into the program and IF their administration is fully committed, starting with the Patient Rep may be all that's needed.  However, if they try this and get stonewalled...then, in my humble opinion (especially if things get worse), this facility deserves to have some big-time lawyer looking over their shoulders.  It is greatly in OUR interest as healthcare facilities to be honest when we mess up...especially with the threat of government-run healthcare hanging over our heads.  

[Jim]

OK, two separate issues here. 

The incision could just as easily gotten infected irrespective of when the c-section got done.  That could be the doc's fault or the hospital or both.  And infection is the most common complication possible and happens, relatively speaking, a lot.  What would be significant is if this doc had a relatively high infection rate compared to others at that hospital.

Regarding the when of the c-section, there could be reasons for that that we can not know.

Obviously its best to look into this stuff before you entrust yourself to their care.  Too late for that now so the only way to find this out is a deal the M speaks of or to sue.  The payment is likely close to the same only you don't enrich lawyers and it doesn't show up on the next patient's radar unless they are sick of this happening over and over with this guy and they punt him.  But with OBs in short supply they may not be able to punt him s minimizing their costs will have to do.

In short, no good answers.

[Bondai]

Sue the hell outa' them...then sue again just for good measure.

[DumbAss Tanker]

As a lawyer for 24 years, I have a much more jaded view and less generous supply of faith in the wide-eyed good will of patient administrators or other medical personnel I don't personally know.  A reputable attorney will talk to her and advise her whether there appears to be anything amiss, and will be speaking from the standpoint of someone with no stake in covering his own butt, and won't want to take the case and pursue it unless the attorney sees clear negligence in it.

By all means she should talk to the facility and tell them she isn't happy.  However she shouldn't sign anything before she consults with an attorney.  If they try to act hurt and guilt her out of taking their offer (if any) to an attorney for an independent review, they're almost certainly trying to get over on her.  I've heard a whole lot more instances of care facilities covering their butts than of them stepping up to the plate (and on top of everything else, billing the patient's insurance carrier for all the extra work they caused, then billing the patient for any associated deductible).

The problem with getting satisfaction after a disappointing surgery experience is that responsibility is divided several ways in a real surgery, the facility with the OR, the operating doc, the anesthesiologist/NA, and possibly the imagery, the pharmacy, and God knows what else are separate entities and not actual employees of the facility (with separate malpractice carriers), just mutual 'contractors,' so getting the one who actually screwed up to admit it and get on board with making a kumbaya pie is pretty tough. 

So sure, give them a chance to make an offer.  She just should also realize she's asking someone who apparently couldn't get it right at least twice so far to come clean and police up all the broken crockery to perfection.  In the real world this is generally viewed as cause for distrust on the third shot. 

She also needs to make sure she isn't in a rush to sign off on anything for the provider, to ensure there is no developmental damage to the child from the delay.  The attorney can tell her what time gates she has to hit in that state so her rights are fully protected, few if any care providers will tip their hands on this subject on the basis that they 'Can't provide her legal advice,' which really means they hope nobody else will do so either.

[PatriotGame]

So I've seen it countless times on here and other sites like it pointing out how people like John Edwards are responsible for driving up health care costs with their litigation.

But at what point is it justified to hold the medical profession liable for their **** ups?

One of my best friends was forced to wait two weeks beyond her due date with her baby.  She asked to be induced, and even requested a c-section but they kept telling her no.  Finally the babies heart beat begins to fail, and their forced to do an emergency c-section.  Now she has to spend the first week on oxygen.  When my wife was pregnant with our son, our Dr. told us that they will not let the baby stay in past 10 days after the due date, because it gets to become to big of a risk for the baby.  She told us that the exact thing that happend to my friends baby is what could happen.  On top of that, now her incision is badly infected, and I'm praying it's not a Staph infection.

So when is enough enough?  At what point does the Dr's negligence need to be punished?  Because the Dr waited so damn long, the life of my friends daughter was put in danger.  Because of the hospitals negligence in following up with an invasive surgery, she may have a life threatening infection.

I'm beyond furious at this hospital, and I've advised she find a lawyer.  Is that wrong?

There is more than one doctor in the world. There is more than one plumber or mechanic in the world. If your current doctor does not fit your needs, call your healthcare provider, tell them you think your current doctor sucks and ask them to recommend another. The last thing any of them want is another John Edwards lawsuit on their hands so they will gladly point you to another doctor. If you explain the situation and your dissatisfaction to the new doctor, you will be surprised at how quickly your demands are met.
Nice and easy...

Always and I mean ALWAYS remember to play the politically correct bullshit! Tell the insurance company or the new health care provider that you feel that the old doctor was shitting on your wife's concerns because she is a woman. ZIP-BOOM-BAM!! Case completed!

[Chris_]

As a lawyer for 24 years, I have a much more jaded view and less generous supply of faith in the wide-eyed good will of patient administrators or other medical personnel I don't personally know.  A reputable attorney will talk to her and advise her whether there appears to be anything amiss, and will be speaking from the standpoint of someone with no stake in covering his own butt, and won't want to take the case and pursue it unless the attorney sees clear negligence in it.

By all means she should talk to the facility and tell them she isn't happy.  However she shouldn't sign anything before she consults with an attorney.  If they try to act hurt and guilt her out of taking their offer (if any) to an attorney for an independent review, they're almost certainly trying to get over on her.  I've heard a whole lot more instances of care facilities covering their butts than of them stepping up to the plate (and on top of everything else, billing the patient's insurance carrier for all the extra work they caused, then billing the patient for any associated deductible).

The problem with getting satisfaction after a disappointing surgery experience is that responsibility is divided several ways in a real surgery, the facility with the OR, the operating doc, the anesthesiologist/NA, and possibly the imagery, the pharmacy, and God knows what else are separate entities and not actual employees of the facility (with separate malpractice carriers), just mutual 'contractors,' so getting the one who actually screwed up to admit it and get on board with making a kumbaya pie is pretty tough. 

So sure, give them a chance to make an offer.  She just should also realize she's asking someone who apparently couldn't get it right at least twice so far to come clean and police up all the broken crockery to perfection.  In the real world this is generally viewed as cause for distrust on the third shot. 

She also needs to make sure she isn't in a rush to sign off on anything for the provider, to ensure there is no developmental damage to the child from the delay.  The attorney can tell her what time gates she has to hit in that state so her rights are fully protected, few if any care providers will tip their hands on this subject on the basis that they 'Can't provide her legal advice,' which really means they hope nobody else will do so either.

Spoken like a lawyer.

I rest my case.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Spoken like a lawyer.

I rest my case.

I should probably also tell you that unicorns don't prance on the licorice grass in the lollipop forest, but I'm afraid that might be too much for you to swallow.

 

[Thor]

IMO, there's a big difference between being human, making a mistake and outright negligence. In cases of mistakes, there should be some amount of forgiveness. In cases of negligence, the full force of the law should be brought down on a Doctor. The instance that Jonesy cited sounds more like a case of negligence or "dereliction of duty" (for lack of  better term) than anything else. Sure, babies DO come late, but there should be some common sense used in the matter.

[debk]

Don't sign anything and find a "decent" lawyer....not an ambulance chaser.

I was badly burned within an hour of being born.....took my parents 4 years to find an attorney willing to sue a Catholic hospital, and Order of Nuns, and the doctor.

Now....lawyers would have been standing in line to take on the whole lot of them.


Not sure which is worse....not finding a decent lawyer or having a throng of them....