Author Topic: "Free Healthcare"  (Read 2044 times)

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Offline LC EFA

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"Free Healthcare"
« on: January 07, 2009, 05:56:48 PM »
This is what "free healthcare" can do for you !!

Quote
Patients tested by wait
Bronwyn Cummings

Thursday, January 8, 2009

© The Cairns Post
 
PATIENTS sick enough to be admitted to Cairns hospital must wait in the emergency department for an average of seven hours before they can get a bed.

The wait time is among the worst in the state.

Health Minister Stephen Robertson recently released figures that show the wait times for admission to a bed at Cairns Base Hospital has jumped more than an hour-and-a-half since 2004 when patients waited on average five hours and 21 minutes

[more]

http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2009/01/08/22725_local-news.html

...and there's still advocates of handing control of the healthcare system to the government (or allowing it to retain control as the case may be).

Offline Chris_

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 06:40:22 PM »
This is what "free healthcare" can do for you !!

...and there's still advocates of handing control of the healthcare system to the government (or allowing it to retain control as the case may be).

What's a little death when your ideology wins?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 06:43:27 PM »
But the American Socialists Democrats can do better than the other countries have done.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 02:53:34 AM »
But the American Socialists Democrats can do better badder than the other countries have done.

“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

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Offline Sam Adams

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 05:11:22 AM »
How should health care be allocated? If you give it away for free, the quantity demanded will quickly exceed the quantity supplied. People will use free emergency room services, instead of more expensive primary care services, even for relatively minor health problems. Then the system becomes overloaded.

Offline formerlurker

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 06:07:04 AM »
Actually you don't have to look far at all to get stats like that.   Uninsured Americans and illegals utilize emergency rooms for their general health care needs as they can receive free care there.   The average wait at big city hospitals is pretty much on par with this article, sometimes even longer. 

While the "real conservatives" like to dub Romney a Rino for his health care plan (it is actually a very good plan), his plan eliminates the free care at hospital emergency rooms.   You come in without insurance, you get reported.  No more illegal aliens utilizing MA hospitals for their healthcare needs.  No more blank checks to hospitals to bail them out for the free care they provide (which was over $1billion a year with no way to cap it).   

Novel concept that is working. 


Note:   My son was taken by ambulance to the ER for a seizure issue from school.   We were in and out of there in 2 hours (and that included an EEG).    No lines, no waiting.   
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 06:09:50 AM by formerlurker »

Offline Gratiot

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 05:22:44 PM »
Uninsured Americans and illegals utilize emergency rooms for their general health care needs as they can receive free care there.   The average wait at big city hospitals is pretty much on par with this article, sometimes even longer.

While we could debate the frequency of waits approaching that length, they're certainly not unheard of  :(  Medical care financing is one heck of a problem, which I'm unaware of any country that has perfectly resolved.

Offline MrsSmith

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 05:47:50 PM »
The ER route for free healthcare will be declining in the US.  My hospital is having to severely cut next year's budget, and we're feeling lucky that they aren't laying off, yet.  There are rumors that smaller hospitals in this area are considering closing.  If the economy recovers, we'll have breathing room for a while, but the crunch is coming. 

I just heard the figures for a university medical center a couple hours from where I live...they are expected to lose 60 million dollars in 2009.  The group that owns my hospital (a group of Catholic nuns), has been hired to help run the place because we're losing less money that anyone else in the state right now.  Evidently, some major philanthropists have donated big-time to keep this center open because if it closes, the surrounding systems will bankrupt like dominoes as the non-paying case load moves.

I am totally against government-run healthcare, but the bums and slackers are killing us.
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Offline BEG

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 05:58:10 PM »
When I had that scare a little over a year ago (I was afraid I was having TIA's) my doctor told me to go to Baylor Hospital right away (downtown Dallas  :whatever: ).  He called and told them I was coming yet I still had to wait hours before I got to be seen by a doctor.  They did perform a few tests before I got to see a doctor by taking me out of the waiting room and performing the test then sending me back into the waiting room (this happened three times).  I was wearing a hosptial gown and carrying my clothes in a bag because I had to change into a hosptial gown for the tests.  I felt really stupid hanging out in the waiting room in a hospital gown.  It really made me mad, I could have had another stroke by the time they got to me.  By the time they did finally get to me I had a full blown migraine and had it for the full 5 days I was in the hospital.

Edited to add:

Contrast that to Denton Regional.  When my daughter had a boating accident and hit her chin so bad that we thought all of her teeth were knocked out the wait in the emergency waiting room was 15 minutes MAX.  We were in and out of the hospital in a couple hours.  I know why, we live in the suburbs and there aren't as many uninsured people as there are in the inner city.  I know I'm going to sound really bad but I could tell who down at the Baylor ER didn't have insurance, about 90% of the people in the waiting room.  There was one lady who came in via the EMT's and walked out of the emergency waiting room 20 minutes later.  There was nothing seriously wrong with her.  They came in and called her name (after you walk in you have to sign in then they call you to give them your information) and when they realized she was gone I heard one of the ladies comment that that was the third time this woman had done this that week.

Edited again to add a disclaimer: I don't want anyone to think that I feel that people who don't have insurance shouldn't go to the ER if they have a real emergency.  I just don't like them using the ER to replace seeing a regular doctor.  I know that many of them have no choice.  I was commenting on why ER's are so overloaded.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 06:22:09 PM by BEG »

Offline Miss Mia

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 06:03:24 PM »
When I had that scare a little over a year ago (I was afraid I was having TIA's) my doctor told me to go to Baylor Hospital right away (downtown Dallas  :whatever: ).  He called and told them I was coming yet I still had to wait hours before I got to be seen by a doctor.  They did perform a few tests before I got to see a doctor by taking me out of the waiting room and performing the test then sending me back into the waiting room (this happened three times).  I was wearing a hosptial gown and carrying my clothes in a bag because I had to change into a hosptial gown for the tests.  I felt really stupid hanging out in the waiting room in a hospital gown.  It really made me mad, I could have had another stroke by the time they got to me.  By the time they did finally get to me I had a full blown migraine and had it for the full 5 days I was in the hospital.

When I was a junior in high school, my parents took me to the ER in the middle of the night.  I was having horrible pain in my side and we were worried it was appendicitis.  I remember sitting there for hours waiting to get in.  Then when I was finally taken back, a sadistic nurse proceeded to jam me 5 times trying to get an IV started.

This was August of 1997.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2009, 06:05:05 PM »
When I had that scare a little over a year ago (I was afraid I was having TIA's) my doctor told me to go to Baylor Hospital right away (downtown Dallas  :whatever: ).  He called and told them I was coming yet I still had to wait hours before I got to be seen by a doctor.  They did perform a few tests before I got to see a doctor by taking me out of the waiting room and performing the test then sending me back into the waiting room (this happened three times).  I was wearing a hosptial gown and carrying my clothes in a bag because I had to change into a hosptial gown for the tests.  I felt really stupid hanging out in the waiting room in a hospital gown.  It really made me mad, I could have had another stroke by the time they got to me.  By the time they did finally get to me I had a full blown migraine and had it for the full 5 days I was in the hospital.

I am thinking we need to transfer your brain and good looks to a cyborg.
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Offline BEG

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2009, 06:11:16 PM »
I am thinking we need to transfer your brain and good looks to a cyborg.

I think my health issues add another layer to my irresistible charm.   :-)

Offline EastFacingNorth

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 09:34:09 PM »
Actually you don't have to look far at all to get stats like that.   Uninsured Americans and illegals utilize emergency rooms for their general health care needs as they can receive free care there.   The average wait at big city hospitals is pretty much on par with this article, sometimes even longer. 

While the "real conservatives" like to dub Romney a Rino for his health care plan (it is actually a very good plan), his plan eliminates the free care at hospital emergency rooms.   You come in without insurance, you get reported.  No more illegal aliens utilizing MA hospitals for their healthcare needs.  No more blank checks to hospitals to bail them out for the free care they provide (which was over $1billion a year with no way to cap it).   

Novel concept that is working. 


Note:   My son was taken by ambulance to the ER for a seizure issue from school.   We were in and out of there in 2 hours (and that included an EEG).    No lines, no waiting.   

Or we could just, you know, not force hospitals to take on charity cases.  But nah, forcing the taxpayers to subsidize insurance plans for the indigent, as well as forcing successful young adults into purchasing insurance that both common sense and the actuarial tables tell them they are likely better off not buying, is such a better alternative.
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Offline Tantal

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 10:22:33 PM »

Contrast that to Denton Regional........the wait in the emergency waiting room was 15 minutes MAX.  We were in and out of the hospital in a couple hours. 
You should try Cook Children's on a Saturday night. It looks like a 3rd World country in there. One lady, at 1 am, was bringing her son into the ER........for a damned PHYSICAL for football! Just recently we had to take Mrs. Tantal to the ER for an infected tooth. We didn't dare go anywhere near downtown. First we hit Harris H.E.B. in Bedford. Pretty-much a zoo, even though it's the Mid-Cities. We decided it wasn't worth the wait, so we headed up to Baylor Grapevine. That place rocked. In a room in 5 minutes. Out the door within an hour and a half. It pays to go to the quieter part of town.
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 07:43:17 AM »
Or we could just, you know, not force hospitals to take on charity cases.  But nah, forcing the taxpayers to subsidize insurance plans for the indigent, as well as forcing successful young adults into purchasing insurance that both common sense and the actuarial tables tell them they are likely better off not buying, is such a better alternative.

Well that is where reality comes charging in.    Hospitals that accept federal funds cannot turn patients away in their emergency rooms.  Now I can whine until I get sick of my own voice about that, but it won't do a hill of beans of good cause that will never change.   Never.   So, we have to address how we can stem costs to the taxpayer.   

Let me tell you something about actuarial tables and the personal responsibility crowd.  Oh wait, my bad -- I don't need too.   MA was bailing hospitals out to the tune of $1 billion plus a year (with NO way of capping or controlling those costs).   That pretty much represents how "responsible" those folks are.    Of course actuarial tables provide you with data for young adults who actually have insurance, not really giving you the breakdown of those who get freecare every year, which include college students and those already in the workforce.   (Why "successful young adults" is referenced in your post is intriguing.   Is it your assertion that only the successful young adults be given the choice to forego coverage?).     

You can also look to how much MA consumers pay on their auto insurance premiums.   You see a huge population of "personal responsibility" residents of NH (the state that says it's all you baby, no auto insurance necessary) travel to MA to work.   They get into car accidents.   No insurance.   No actual demonstration of personal responsibility to pay for the loss, or the resulting injuries to those "successul young adults" who are also personally responsible as the actuarial tables told them to roll the dice, you don't need insurance cause bad things don't happen to young successful people. 

The knock on the door you are hearing is reality paying a visit cause someone has to pay -- as you know as sure as I am typing this that those "successul young adults" aren't going to pass up the EMT placing them in the ambulance.   I wonder who will foot the bill for that?   It's a mystery....


Offline NHSparky

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 08:00:53 AM »
I'll thank you not to paint EVERYONE in NH with such a broad brush, thanks very much.

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Offline EastFacingNorth

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2009, 11:09:47 AM »
Well that is where reality comes charging in.    Hospitals that accept federal funds cannot turn patients away in their emergency rooms.  Now I can whine until I get sick of my own voice about that, but it won't do a hill of beans of good cause that will never change.   Never.   So, we have to address how we can stem costs to the taxpayer.   

Let me tell you something about actuarial tables and the personal responsibility crowd.  Oh wait, my bad -- I don't need too.   MA was bailing hospitals out to the tune of $1 billion plus a year (with NO way of capping or controlling those costs).   That pretty much represents how "responsible" those folks are.    Of course actuarial tables provide you with data for young adults who actually have insurance, not really giving you the breakdown of those who get freecare every year, which include college students and those already in the workforce.   (Why "successful young adults" is referenced in your post is intriguing.   Is it your assertion that only the successful young adults be given the choice to forego coverage?).     

You can also look to how much MA consumers pay on their auto insurance premiums.   You see a huge population of "personal responsibility" residents of NH (the state that says it's all you baby, no auto insurance necessary) travel to MA to work.   They get into car accidents.   No insurance.   No actual demonstration of personal responsibility to pay for the loss, or the resulting injuries to those "successul young adults" who are also personally responsible as the actuarial tables told them to roll the dice, you don't need insurance cause bad things don't happen to young successful people. 

The knock on the door you are hearing is reality paying a visit cause someone has to pay -- as you know as sure as I am typing this that those "successul young adults" aren't going to pass up the EMT placing them in the ambulance.   I wonder who will foot the bill for that?   It's a mystery....



As long as their are people around like yourself, who care more about pragmatism than rightness when it comes to voting (or anything else, I'd wager), then you're probably correct, such things won't ever change.  (Interesting, though, that a self-identified conservative would be such a pragmatist, given that pragmatism is an explicitly left-wing political philosophy, held by such notables as Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Mussolini.)

Now if, instead of winding up with a candidate like John McCain because of your pragmatist ilk, the people who have a conviction or two became the majority in the GOP, leading to the nomination of a Hunter or a Tancredo - or yes, even a Ron Paul - then the country might stand a chance on getting on the right track.

Given that you've amply demonstrated you don't know a damned thing about actuarial science, whereas I'm studying to become an actuary, even if your malformed ramblings had expressed a coherent thought, I would have ignored it anyhow, given that it is almost certainly wrong.  By way of example - the data which are used to create actuarial tables are not taken merely from the set of insured persons but from statistics of all sorts, such as casualty and mortality data, police reports, etc.

And your conclusion - that the previous debt due to uninsured patients is indicative of the irresponsibility of all who choose to forego coverage - is fallacious.  I've been uninsured for three years now - which would make me a criminal in your state - and I've never once incurred a medical bill which I've not paid.  This is in part due to the fact that, being a member of the demographic I mentioned, successful young adults, I'm far less likely than a member of any other demographic to need medical care.  That isn't to say that only successful young adults should have the choice of declining health insurance - I think everyone should have that choice - but only that they are the prime example of a demographic for which it can be a good choice.  If you had so much as half a functioning brain, my referrencing of that demographic wouldn't be "intriguing," it'd be plain common sense.

As far as auto insurance, if you're uncomfortable with the prospect of driving on roads with uninsured drivers while feel-good laws prohibit you from recovering all your losses, you've got a bit of a problem.  I doubt New Hampshire is willing to curtail the liberty of its residents, which means that if you want to have a level playing field (i.e. not see those outrageous premiums) you're going to have to increase liberty in your state, something which I know is an anathema to you personally.  In the long term, you'll have to work at changing those afore-mentioned feel-good laws so that you can recoup your losses by taking the causal agent of the accident's home, other car, the shirt off his back, his dog, and his liver if need be.  THAT is personal responsibility.  True personal responsibility is impracticable under the current system, which encourages and abets moral hazard (if you don't know the term, look it up - it probably doesn't mean what you think) - so to critisize the advocates of personal responsibility for hypocrisy makes little sense.

In the short term, just get comprehensive coverage.  Was that so hard?
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Offline Gratiot

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 11:42:57 AM »
I've been uninsured for three years now - which would make me a criminal in your state - and I've never once incurred a medical bill which I've not paid.  This is in part due to the fact that, being a member of the demographic I mentioned, successful young adults, I'm far less likely than a member of any other demographic to need medical care.

You're placing your future, credit, and assets at risk to save a thousand a year?  If you're a young and healthy adult, adequate insurance for only serious catastrophes ($5k deductible) is readily affordable (around $1k a year).  You'll still have to pay for routine dental visits, flu shots, and the like out of pocket... but in worst case scenarios where medical liabilities can quickly run into the hundreds of thousands... you'll find solace, in that your future won't be ruined.

Rampant medical liabilities are a leading cause of bankruptcy.  A position you're placing yourself at risk for, while patting yourself on the back for being successful?  Regardless of how much wealth you may have, you're playing roulette with your assets and future.

Perhaps being a bit of a pragmatic, isn't such a bad thing...

Offline formerlurker

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 12:24:44 PM »
As long as their are people around like yourself, who care more about pragmatism than rightness when it comes to voting (or anything else, I'd wager), then you're probably correct, such things won't ever change.  (Interesting, though, that a self-identified conservative would be such a pragmatist, given that pragmatism is an explicitly left-wing political philosophy, held by such notables as Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Mussolini.)

Now if, instead of winding up with a candidate like John McCain because of your pragmatist ilk, the people who have a conviction or two became the majority in the GOP, leading to the nomination of a Hunter or a Tancredo - or yes, even a Ron Paul - then the country might stand a chance on getting on the right track.

Given that you've amply demonstrated you don't know a damned thing about actuarial science, whereas I'm studying to become an actuary, even if your malformed ramblings had expressed a coherent thought, I would have ignored it anyhow, given that it is almost certainly wrong.  By way of example - the data which are used to create actuarial tables are not taken merely from the set of insured persons but from statistics of all sorts, such as casualty and mortality data, police reports, etc.

And your conclusion - that the previous debt due to uninsured patients is indicative of the irresponsibility of all who choose to forego coverage - is fallacious.  I've been uninsured for three years now - which would make me a criminal in your state - and I've never once incurred a medical bill which I've not paid.  This is in part due to the fact that, being a member of the demographic I mentioned, successful young adults, I'm far less likely than a member of any other demographic to need medical care.  That isn't to say that only successful young adults should have the choice of declining health insurance - I think everyone should have that choice - but only that they are the prime example of a demographic for which it can be a good choice.  If you had so much as half a functioning brain, my referrencing of that demographic wouldn't be "intriguing," it'd be plain common sense.

As far as auto insurance, if you're uncomfortable with the prospect of driving on roads with uninsured drivers while feel-good laws prohibit you from recovering all your losses, you've got a bit of a problem.  I doubt New Hampshire is willing to curtail the liberty of its residents, which means that if you want to have a level playing field (i.e. not see those outrageous premiums) you're going to have to increase liberty in your state, something which I know is an anathema to you personally.  In the long term, you'll have to work at changing those afore-mentioned feel-good laws so that you can recoup your losses by taking the causal agent of the accident's home, other car, the shirt off his back, his dog, and his liver if need be.  THAT is personal responsibility.  True personal responsibility is impracticable under the current system, which encourages and abets moral hazard (if you don't know the term, look it up - it probably doesn't mean what you think) - so to critisize the advocates of personal responsibility for hypocrisy makes little sense.

In the short term, just get comprehensive coverage.  Was that so hard?

Casualty adjuster, with lots of initials after my name.   I have forgotten more about insurance than you will ever know.  How about you link me to your actuarial table and we will discuss it?   Mmmkay? 

As long as there are people.....  yes junior, as long as there are people.   It's call reality -- the world you refuse to accept. 

You never had medical bills you couldn't pay.   See there is a difference junior.   I presented to you what the actual cost is for those who chose to go without.   If you had so much as half a functioning brain, you would take pause and consider the make-up of those who accessed that free care.   You see Mitt Romney did that.  But what the hell does he know? Silly Mitt isn't studying to be an actuary........ :whatever:

Personal responsibility granted to those in NH make my auto premiums go up.   The consequence of those who choose not to purchase auto insurance directly affects my family.    Hmmm,   those-sue-his-pants-off rules are already in affect.   My insurance carrier subrogates directly against those personal responsibility folks, but your know what junior?  that takes time, and resources, and what Bueller?  that's right money.  Say it with me, M-O-N-E-Y.   So our premiums in MA go up to subsidize the live free or die morons in NH.    Ah, when theory meets practice.   Kind of bites you in the ass doesn't it?








Offline formerlurker

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Re: "Free Healthcare"
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 12:27:52 PM »
You're placing your future, credit, and assets at risk to save a thousand a year?  If you're a young and healthy adult, adequate insurance for only serious catastrophes ($5k deductible) is readily affordable (around $1k a year).  You'll still have to pay for routine dental visits, flu shots, and the like out of pocket... but in worst case scenarios where medical liabilities can quickly run into the hundreds of thousands... you'll find solace, in that your future won't be ruined.

Rampant medical liabilities are a leading cause of bankruptcy.  A position you're placing yourself at risk for, while patting yourself on the back for being successful?  Regardless of how much wealth you may have, you're playing roulette with your assets and future.

Perhaps being a bit of a pragmatic, isn't such a bad thing...

The youth think they have all the answers and will live forever.