Author Topic: The DUI exception to the constitution  (Read 8099 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2009, 08:55:45 PM »
A sympathetic notion because drunk drivers are a despicable breed but it smacks too closely to the erroneous, "if you didn't do anything wrong than you don't have ant reason to keep the police from searching your __________ ."

At reflex it is very true but the fact remains: we have the 4th and 5th amendments and presumptions of innocence for a reason. Just because there are such things as drunk drivers does not give LEO's carte blanche in treating the entire balance of the citizenry as potential criminals.

Still, your underlying principle of not being a drunken ****head out on public roads is laudable


Unfortunately one of the first things that alcohol deadens is rational thinking and inhibitions, a bad combination. Once someone drinks past a certain level they can justify pretty much anything.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2009, 12:09:36 AM »
A sympathetic notion because drunk drivers are a despicable breed but it smacks too closely to the erroneous, "if you didn't do anything wrong than you don't have ant reason to keep the police from searching your __________ ."

You know I've been on this planet for now almost forty years...and in all that time when I've never seen the kind of heavy handed LEOs salivating at the thought of breaking the 4th and 5th Amendments like some others on here.

Midland, Texas....Savannah, Georgia...Junction City Kansas....Dothan, Alabama...Arlington, Fairfax and Alexandria Virginia and D.C. itself.

Never.

To here what some folks are saying on here...they sound...IMHO...like a bunch of paranoids.


Again it's real simple people....don't break the law...and there won't be any reason for the cops to be in your business.



Quote
At reflex it is very true but the fact remains: we have the 4th and 5th amendments and presumptions of innocence for a reason. Just because there are such things as drunk drivers does not give LEO's carte blanche in treating the entire balance of the citizenry as potential criminals.

They don't do that and you know it.  Statements like that border on tinfoil country.  :tinfoil2:

Quote
Still, your underlying principle of not being a drunken ****head out on public roads is laudable

It's as simple as following the damn law.  It's common sense.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2009, 04:46:25 AM »
A sympathetic notion because drunk drivers are a despicable breed but it smacks too closely to the erroneous, "if you didn't do anything wrong than you don't have ant reason to keep the police from searching your __________ ."

At reflex it is very true but the fact remains: we have the 4th and 5th amendments and presumptions of innocence for a reason. Just because there are such things as drunk drivers does not give LEO's carte blanche in treating the entire balance of the citizenry as potential criminals.

Still, your underlying principle of not being a drunken ****head out on public roads is laudable


Unfortunately one of the first things that alcohol deadens is rational thinking and inhibitions, a bad combination. Once someone drinks past a certain level they can justify pretty much anything.

Including saying to the supposed human female in the bed next to you, "Who are you, and how did you get here?"
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Offline FlaGator

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2009, 06:20:58 AM »
Nothing justifies my first marriage.  Nothing.


The exception that proves the rule my friend!
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Offline NHSparky

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2009, 07:19:14 AM »
Here's a simple solution.

Don't get effin drunk and then get behind the wheel.

Pretty simple huh?

Wow--so simple, even an Army guy gets it.
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Offline USA4ME

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2009, 09:15:06 AM »
Slightly off topic.

When I lived in Florida, I had a friend who was an EMT who told me that if one gets pulled over and you know you're gonna get nailed for drunk driving, fake a heart attack.  The police have no choice but to call an ambulance because they can't have you dying on them, they can't administer any kind of test on you, and then once you get into the ambulance or to the hospital you tell them no needles, so they can't draw your blood.  Worse thing that can happen (according to him) is the police, EMT's and hospital staff can testify that you had alcohol on your breath, they can testify to the way you behaved while in their care, but there's no evidence to prove you were drunk.

Didn't say this was the cheapest way to get out of a DUI, just a way to not get convicted of one.  I suppose some form of this carries over to every State.

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Offline Red October

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2009, 09:32:39 AM »
Great... now all I have to do is take some "Fake a Coronary" acting classes and I'll be hooked up.  :cheersmate:  :-)

The public roads are the same as the territorial waters around the United States.  The water is United states territory... essentially "public land."  Roads are the same thing, right?  Just like you can't cruise around the coast with drugs in your boat and not expect the Coast Guard to hop aboard, you can't cruise around the public roads and not expect the police to be watching you.  I just don't see where anyone's rights are being violated. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 09:34:46 AM by Red October »
 

Offline formerlurker

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2009, 09:40:15 AM »
Slightly off topic.

When I lived in Florida, I had a friend who was an EMT who told me that if one gets pulled over and you know you're gonna get nailed for drunk driving, fake a heart attack.  The police have no choice but to call an ambulance because they can't have you dying on them, they can't administer any kind of test on you, and then once you get into the ambulance or to the hospital you tell them no needles, so they can't draw your blood.  Worse thing that can happen (according to him) is the police, EMT's and hospital staff can testify that you had alcohol on your breath, they can testify to the way you behaved while in their care, but there's no evidence to prove you were drunk.

Didn't say this was the cheapest way to get out of a DUI, just a way to not get convicted of one.  I suppose some form of this carries over to every State.

.


Never seen ER records where the party refused tx before, but hey it may work.     

Offline USA4ME

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2009, 09:52:00 AM »
I actually had a friend of mine do it once in Tampa.  He was drunk as a skunk, in the car with his girlfriend, driving a 1971 Datsun 240Z and doing doughnuts in a bank parking lot at about 11pm.  His father had a history of having a heart condition, so that had some impact on the judge at the end.  But he followed this advise to the "T", and didn't get a DUI but rather a suspended license for about 30 days.

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Offline EastFacingNorth

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2009, 11:00:00 AM »
I`m sorry if I am reading this wrong but does that propose that only after the fact should any action be weighed as being injurious.
In other words murder isn`t illegal on its face but the act may be punishable if after the commission of it someone determines it to have been injurious.
Sounds silly but it leaves the door open for situation ethics...XYZ persons life wasn`t determined to be valuable or not enough so that his/her killing proved to be injurious.

Capital "L" Libertarianism is almost as confused and befuddled as its long distance cousin liberalism in trying to set up a utopian society and uses the same suspension of reality to argue its claims.

What it says is that you can only justly criminalize injurious actions, not simply actions which make one more likely to commit an injurious action, if said action does not in and of itself injure another person.  As related to the current topic: it's not the alcohol in the drunk driver's bloodstream that kills his passengers after a collision, it's the collision.  That collision is already a crime.  To protect the intoxicated driver from his own stupidity by criminalizing driving while intoxicated in an attempt to make his decisions for him - this smacks of nanny-statism, something conservatives are supposed to oppose.

In my experience, however, a great many conservatives oppose nanny-statism only when it involves providing the people with positive benefits - what you might call maternal government - but not government which attempts to control the behavior of its subjects through threats of force - what might be called paternal government.  In other words, many conservatives, along with the vast majority of liberals, are guilty of treating citizens - all citizens - like children.  They differ only in the implementation of that treatment - liberals want to spoil the "children," while conservatives want to raise them with discipline.  While I think conservatism is superior in this, as in most cases, I tend to think that a better solution is to just not treat everyone like a child.

And of course capital "L" Libertarianism is confused and befuddled - it contradicts itself.  It is an attempt to organize into a political party the rejection of politics - politics being, by their own philosophy, the exertion of control by one party over another. 

To say that libertarianism is the cousin of liberalism is misleading - true as far as it goes, but you neglect to mention that it is also the cousin of conservatism, being that liberalism is generally pro-personal liberties and anti-economic liberties, whereas conservatism is generally the opposite, and libertarianism is pro-both, thereby taking a pro- from each of the other two political philosophies.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2009, 11:04:48 AM »
Wow--so simple, even an Army guy gets it.

Blind squirrel...nut....you know the rest. :-)
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Offline formerlurker

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2009, 12:59:58 PM »
What it says is that you can only justly criminalize injurious actions, not simply actions which make one more likely to commit an injurious action, if said action does not in and of itself injure another person.  As related to the current topic: it's not the alcohol in the drunk driver's bloodstream that kills his passengers after a collision, it's the collision.  That collision is already a crime.  To protect the intoxicated driver from his own stupidity by criminalizing driving while intoxicated in an attempt to make his decisions for him - this smacks of nanny-statism, something conservatives are supposed to oppose.

Wow.   

Collision is not a crime.  Unless it was intentional, it is considered an accident.   Accidents are a risk associated with operating a motor vehicle.   

If not for alcohol, the collision would not have occurred.   A person who chooses to operate a vehicle while intoxicated, and as such is too impaired to safely operate his vehicle, is a little more than stupidity.   Any collision resultant of the operation of their vehicle is now considered deliberate, and accordingly a crime.   

Absence of the alcohol = accident.   Alcohol = deliberate. 

The primary purpose of law enforcement is public safety.   Absence of law enforcement is anarchy.    Anarchy can not work in any civilized society, and certainly was not in place when our country was founded, or anytime thereafter. 



Offline Carl

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2009, 01:10:09 PM »
What it says is that you can only justly criminalize injurious actions, not simply actions which make one more likely to commit an injurious action, if said action does not in and of itself injure another person.  As related to the current topic: it's not the alcohol in the drunk driver's bloodstream that kills his passengers after a collision, it's the collision.  That collision is already a crime.  To protect the intoxicated driver from his own stupidity by criminalizing driving while intoxicated in an attempt to make his decisions for him - this smacks of nanny-statism, something conservatives are supposed to oppose.

In my experience, however, a great many conservatives oppose nanny-statism only when it involves providing the people with positive benefits - what you might call maternal government - but not government which attempts to control the behavior of its subjects through threats of force - what might be called paternal government.  In other words, many conservatives, along with the vast majority of liberals, are guilty of treating citizens - all citizens - like children.  They differ only in the implementation of that treatment - liberals want to spoil the "children," while conservatives want to raise them with discipline.  While I think conservatism is superior in this, as in most cases, I tend to think that a better solution is to just not treat everyone like a child.

And of course capital "L" Libertarianism is confused and befuddled - it contradicts itself.  It is an attempt to organize into a political party the rejection of politics - politics being, by their own philosophy, the exertion of control by one party over another. 

To say that libertarianism is the cousin of liberalism is misleading - true as far as it goes, but you neglect to mention that it is also the cousin of conservatism, being that liberalism is generally pro-personal liberties and anti-economic liberties, whereas conservatism is generally the opposite, and libertarianism is pro-both, thereby taking a pro- from each of the other two political philosophies.

Hence my distinction between libertarian views of limited,unobtrusive government and the "party" views of isolation,almost anarchy in gov function,fisca conservativism and liberalism in the social sense.

Offline USA4ME

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2009, 03:44:05 PM »
To protect the intoxicated driver from his own stupidity by criminalizing driving while intoxicated in an attempt to make his decisions for him - this smacks of nanny-statism, something conservatives are supposed to oppose.

It also protects others from the drunk's stupidity.

And that's not nanny-statism anymore than saying premediated murder is a crime, or stealing is a crime.  It's just drawing a line in the sand where society has agreed that beyond this certain point you're doing something wrong.

The means by which law enforcement uses to keep drunks off the road is not really something one is going to get a lot of people all riled up about since it's viewed as a good thing.

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Offline Zeus

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »
It also protects others from the drunk's stupidity.

And that's not nanny-statism anymore than saying premediated murder is a crime, or stealing is a crime.  It's just drawing a line in the sand where society has agreed that beyond this certain point you're doing something wrong.

The means by which law enforcement uses to keep drunks off the road is not really something one is going to get a lot of people all riled up about since it's viewed as a good thing.

.

Until it affects them then all hell brakes loose eh. As long as it's the other guy ya know.
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Offline TheSarge

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2009, 09:30:15 PM »
It also protects others from the drunk's stupidity.

And that's not nanny-statism anymore than saying premediated murder is a crime, or stealing is a crime.  It's just drawing a line in the sand where society has agreed that beyond this certain point you're doing something wrong.

The means by which law enforcement uses to keep drunks off the road is not really something one is going to get a lot of people all riled up about since it's viewed as a good thing.

.

Does no good to tell some on here about reality.  What they want is anarchy.
Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years.  The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

If it walks like a donkey and brays like a donkey and smells like a donkey - it's Cold Warrior.  - PoliCon



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Offline FlaGator

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2009, 09:13:18 AM »
Slightly off topic.

When I lived in Florida, I had a friend who was an EMT who told me that if one gets pulled over and you know you're gonna get nailed for drunk driving, fake a heart attack.  The police have no choice but to call an ambulance because they can't have you dying on them, they can't administer any kind of test on you, and then once you get into the ambulance or to the hospital you tell them no needles, so they can't draw your blood.  Worse thing that can happen (according to him) is the police, EMT's and hospital staff can testify that you had alcohol on your breath, they can testify to the way you behaved while in their care, but there's no evidence to prove you were drunk.

Didn't say this was the cheapest way to get out of a DUI, just a way to not get convicted of one.  I suppose some form of this carries over to every State.

.

Doesn't work any more. If they take you to the hospital because of a traffic stop the hospital will automatically take some blood and test it to protect themselves and the police from any potential liability. If the results are positive for drugs and/or alcohol it will be used against you in a court of law. The are also trying to adjust the law so that if you refuse a field sorbriety test or breathalyzer blood will automatically be taken. Right now if you refuse the breathalyzer you lose your license for 1 year.
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Offline EastFacingNorth

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2009, 06:45:58 PM »
The means by which law enforcement uses to keep drunks off the road is not really something one is going to get a lot of people all riled up about since it's viewed as a good thing.

The ends justify the means, right?
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Offline Carl

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2009, 06:57:25 PM »
The ends justify the means, right?

No,there have been laws written by legislatures,signed by a chief executive and subjected to judicial review since the days of the founders.
It is how our form of government operates but since it is by men it isn`t perfect nor will it ever be.

Show me how the Libertarian philosophy of no or few specific laws with existence being based on a for the moment examination of what is in society supposed best interest (or that of those deciding) is any better.
Very soon it becomes a wild west fantasy which looks neat on TV but few would like to live in.

Offline formerlurker

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2009, 09:33:42 PM »
Quote
The end of the institution, maintenance, and administration of government, is to secure the existence of the body politic, to protect it, and to furnish the individuals who compose it with the power of enjoying in safety and tranquillity their natural rights, and the blessings of life: and whenever these great objects are not obtained, the people have a right to alter the government, and to take measures necessary for their safety, prosperity and happiness.

The body politic is formed by a voluntary association of individuals: it is a social compact, by which the whole people covenants with each citizen, and each citizen with the whole people, that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good. It is the duty of the people, therefore, in framing a constitution of government, to provide for an equitable mode of making laws, as well as for an impartial interpretation, and a faithful execution of them; that every man may, at all times, find his security in them.

We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.


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Offline Chris_

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Re: The DUI exception to the constitution
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2009, 09:37:28 PM »
No,there have been laws written by legislatures,signed by a chief executive and subjected to judicial review since the days of the founders.
It is how our form of government operates but since it is by men it isn`t perfect nor will it ever be.

Show me how the Libertarian philosophy of no or few specific laws with existence being based on a for the moment examination of what is in society supposed best interest (or that of those deciding) is any better.
Very soon it becomes a wild west fantasy which looks neat on TV but few would like to live in.

Anarchists don't understand your arguments.  They just wanna do what they wanna do when they wanna do it.  If other people get hurt, who the hell cares?  It is their RIGHT to do what they wanna do.

I have scoured the USC and couldn't find anything about the right to drive (or ride a horse or carriage or whatever). 
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.