Pedro Picasso gives parenting advice

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4736724#4736944

Oh my.

For those who don't know, Pedro Picasso, perilously close to the sixth decade of his life, is self-admittedly married, and self-admittedly the father of at least two sons.

Unless, of course, Pedro Picasso lied.

AngryAmish (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:14 AM
Original message
 
Saying NO to a toddler v. "That behavior is unacceptable"

I have a young tot at home who is getting into more and more stuff. When she starts pulling on electric cords etc. the natural thing to say is No and then move her away and distract her with something else. Well according to the parenting book saying no is wrong thing to say to a child, even one this young (11 months). We are supposed to say "That behavior is unacceptable". My wife is a rule follower and she has taken to saying this to our tyke sometimes.

My position is "that behavior is unacceptable" just becomes the new no. This is more a question of how language changes and how certain terms become unacceptable.

I get it. Negro is now unacceptable when before it was the preferred term. Retarded is now developmentally disabled. Queer was acceptable, then unacceptable, then kinda acceptable.

I use the preferred terms because one tries no to cause offense.

But language is a weird thing. I don't decry political correctness for calling people by what they try to call themselves.

TexasObserver  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
 
2. It's bullshit. Sort of.

When a toddler is about to stick the fork in a socket, NO! is the word.

When a toddler is about to stick a fork in a dog, NO! is the word.

When a toddler runs loose in the mall, NO! is the word.

NO! works because it's fast, and that's what you need when you're watching a toddler.

Explaining NO! comes after getting the intercession NO! brings.

Kids already know they aren't supposed to do IT most of the time, whatever IT is.

Being two is about challenging limits, about investigating, and about repeating NO! back to mommy and daddy. You can change the language, but the process is timeless.

It's good to explain things to kids, but first you have to stop them from doing whatever it is they are about to do, or doing.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2

10. NO has a clear, distinct meaning to a toddler. A five-syllable word doesn't.

NO is strong and forceful and shows authority (that might turn off some DUers right there).

"Unacceptable" is a touchy-feely bullshit way of making the parent feel like they're treating their child with respect. Toddlers aren't looking for respect. They're looking for limits.

Just say NO.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
 
11. They won't tune it out if they're sure of what it means.

If you say "NO!" and then let them do it, then yell "NO!" again as they keep misbehaving, then sure, "No" becomes meaningless. But if you are consistent with your follow-through, NO means NO and they get to know it pretty quick.

Atman  (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
 
14. What you are saying is fine...and should be preceeded by a firm NO...

...THEN the explanation.

BTW, as for your nail polish example...I defy you to find me a toddler who understands the concept of "...that belongs too..." So what? To a toddler, everything belongs to everyone. Their concept of ownership extends scarcely beyond their blanky and anything that happens to be in their hands at the time.

NeedleCast  (1000+ posts)      Tue Dec-30-08 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
 
52. Oooooooo! Parenting Thread

This will end well...

[Carl]

This is one of the most infuriating part about dealing with libs.

The whole thread is about a stupidity that lib think brought on in the first place.

It is the same with the cost on society dealing with their free sex and drugs mantra from the 60s to today...they demand that the impact of that be paid for by the populace but never accept the blame or suggest they should change in their practices.

It is always about them.

[Flame]

It's "NO" in our house, and always has been.  And "because I said so" is a valid reason for me to say "no", too!

There is no reasoning with a toddler.  There are limits and distractions, but there is no reasoning.

[BlueStateSaint]

It's "NO" in our house, and always has been.  And "because I said so" is a valid reason for me to say "no", too!

There is no reasoning with a toddler.  There are limits and distractions, but there is no reasoning.

As it is, or is going to be (my daughter understands "NO!" but not my explanation), in my household.

[formerlurker]

The principles of Applied Behavorial Analysis (antecedent, behavior, consequence) can be utilized for all children (and adults).    Once a parent realizes that their actions/response/lack of response can be the antecedent to their child's next behavior they can control how events/tantrums play out. 

Problem: mom tells her friends "why is it my kids only come when I scream at them?"

Mom wants her 2 year old son Jack to come over to her so she can put his coat on as they are late getting out the door.   Jack is playing in the playroom.   Mom says "Jack, come here",  no response.    Mom rushes about pulling their stuff together getting increasingly annoyed "JACK, COME HERE" she calls again with more emphasis.   No response.    This goes on for a few more minutes until Mom is close to snapping -- the yell for Jack now is eqivilent to a scream, with a littany of words after "you come when I call you, we are late...."    What did Mom's actions here teach Jack? 

When mom said Jack's name the first time and Jack completely ignored her, the consequence for his behavior of ignoring her was absolutely nothing -- mom went about her business, and Jack was allowed to continue playing.  Mom just reinforced Jack ignoring her.   It wasn't until Mom almost lost it and charged into the playroom did Jack see a consequence.   So in effect, mom taught Jack that he does not have to respond until Mom is losing it as that is the only time there will be a consequence.   

When mom asks Jack to come to her, mom has to follow up immediately with the consequence to his not listening by going into the playroom, taking his hand, and bringing him over to his coat (preferably without words and as neutral as possible).   Jack will then learn that when he is called, he must respond. 

Problem: tantrums

This one is the most difficult to do at first, but children do catch on quickly and you will see them virtually disappear.   My son Jack was notorious for his tantrums until I used ABA with him.  Now they last about 10 seconds (he is 4 years old -- we had them under control when he was 2). 

Jack has a tantrum because it was his twin brother's turn to play with the toy he loves.    Jack starts wailing his lungs out.   Mom completely ignores him, does not even look at him, but stays very close.     The second Jack stops crying (even if it is just to catch his breath), mom says "that's being quiet, do you want me to help you find a new toy?",  Jack immediately starts crying again.   Wash, rinse and repeat until he stops altogether.      Even if it takes an hour.    Once you nail the first tantrum the rest get less in length, until they are nonexistent.    I promise you this works for every single child on this planet -- from special needs to gifted children.  Any attention you give a tantrum reinforces the tantrum.   Do not do it, no matter how long it lasts.   Praise the quiet when they stop for seconds at a time, but ignore the crying.   You can outlast them -- the long term rewards are worth the PIA it is dealing with the first couple of tantrums. 

You can apply this to anything such as hanging up his coat -- stand there completely ignoring the whines and cries, when there is silence state "hang up your coat Jack", and physically hand over hand do it with him.   Then state "that's hanging up your coat."   Take the coat down, and start over until your child does it independently.   

With regard to abberant behaviors -- if you don't like a behavior, then don't reinforce that behavior by responding to it.    Praise and model good behaviors.   Ignore improper ones.   If tantrum occurs in public then scoop and remove the child to your vehicle as neutrally as possible.    When he calms down, praise that and try again.   Tip though on this: it is best to conquer the tantrums at home and until they are dealt with, limit your trips to the store/restaurant, etc.  as consistency is critical for this to work. 

Dangerous situations call for immediate response of removing child from danger.   I agree there is no reasoning with a two year old -- keep it simple "hot", "hurt", "no" and "danger" are completely fine.  Children who bite and hit need to be scooped and removed to isolated environment, then play out the tantrum protocol.   The consequence for biting is they no longer are allowed to play with their peers, and will be isolated until they calm down.   Reasoning with a two year old on biting is the equivilent of trying to explain how 9/11 happened to a truther,   a total waste of time.   

Parenting magazine makes me laugh out loud when I read it in the doctor's office.   My oldest son is autistic.   The parenting skills I have obtained from training I have received to teach my son/carry over his programs to the home and community setting are priceless to me.
Every parent should be trained in ABA protocols, IMHO.

Golden rule of parenting?  yelling doesn't work (sure it makes you feel better, but it isn't effective parenting).

[franksolich]

Golden rule of parenting?  yelling doesn't work (sure it makes you feel better, but it isn't effective parenting).

It works with cats, too, this being patient and neutral with them, rather than yelling and screaming at them.

[Flame]

Yep, follow through is THE most important thing.  People always wonder at how my kids clean the kitchen, and do it well.  They say "mine never do a good job...blah blah blah.  Well, mine didn't start off doing it perfectly, but they learned, and if it isn't done to "standard" they get called back in to fix whatever is wrong.  They learned it was easier to just do it right the first time, than to keep getting pulled back in from whatever they are doing to fix it.

[USA4ME]

A few other suggestions, DUmmies.  If your kid is playing with a electrical socket, besides saying NO, a quick slap on the hand reinforces the NO.  And I realize how difficult it is to love someone other than yourselves, but you libs should then pick up the child, hug and kiss them, tell them how much you love them and how you don't want them to get hurt playing with the socket.  Point at it and say "You will get hurt.  No. No. It will hurt you."  Or how about you DUmmies letting go of some dope money for a week and buying some plastic socket covers?

Atman

To a toddler, everything belongs to them

Fixed.

Poor Pedro.  Poor, poor Pedro.

.

[franksolich]

Poor Pedro.  Poor, poor Pedro.

Yeah, he is starting to get a little fuddy-duddy in his enroaching inevitable old age.

I suspect the "empty nest" syndrome's getting to him, too.

By the way--I noticed Pedro Picasso's emulating you, in that period thingamajig.

Emulation of course is subconscious admiration; "Gee, I wish I could be as good as him."

I'm considerably disheartened that thus far the only primitive who's ever emulated franksolich was the sensitive lad, the piano-playing primitive, the "GoodBoy" primitive.

I'd just as soon some other primitive emulate me.

[PatriotGame]

AngryAmish (1000+ posts)        Tue Dec-30-08 10:14 AM
Original message
 
Saying NO to a toddler v. "That behavior is unacceptable"

I have a young tot at home who is getting into more and more stuff. When she starts pulling on electric cords etc. the natural thing to say is No and then move her away and distract her with something else. Well according to the parenting book saying no is wrong thing to say to a child, even one this young (11 months). We are supposed to say "That behavior is unacceptable". My wife is a rule follower and she has taken to saying this to our tyke sometimes.

My position is "that behavior is unacceptable" just becomes the new no. This is more a question of how language changes and how certain terms become unacceptable.

I get it. Negro is now unacceptable when before it was the preferred term. Retarded is now developmentally disabled. Queer was acceptable, then unacceptable, then kinda acceptable.

I use the preferred terms because one tries no to cause offense.

Not to worry DUmmy - ignorant, stupid, commie sacks-o-shit will always be a viable way to describe DUmmys.
Some things need no explanation.

[PatriotGame]

It's "NO" in our house, and always has been.  And "because I said so" is a valid reason for me to say "no", too!

There is no reasoning with a toddler.  There are limits and distractions, but there is no reasoning.

The way I was raised a swift kick in the ass had the same meaning of NO!
So, now you know why I am the way I am.

[delilahmused]

Golden rule of parenting?  yelling doesn't work (sure it makes you feel better, but it isn't effective parenting).

I appreciate all the psychological bullshit but if my child is about to run out into the street and I'm still at the top of the driveway or about to grab a pan of boiling water off the stove you bet I'm saying "NO" as loudly and forcefully as possible, followed by a swat on the behind or a slap of their hand. There are some situations that are life-threatening enough that a shock to their tiny little psyches is quite appropriate.

Cindie

[Zeus]

I appreciate all the psychological bullshit but if my child is about to run out into the street and I'm still at the top of the driveway or about to grab a pan of boiling water off the stove you bet I'm saying "NO" as loudly and forcefully as possible, followed by a swat on the behind or a slap of their hand. There are some situations that are life-threatening enough that a shock to their tiny little psyches is quite appropriate.

Cindie

They will never be your bestest buddy if'n you raise your voice to them ya know. 

You can pretty much pick em out of a crowd,the kids raised by psychobabble & the kids raised with active discipline wether it be a stern word or a swift kick.

[formerlurker]

I appreciate all the psychological bullshit but if my child is about to run out into the street and I'm still at the top of the driveway or about to grab a pan of boiling water off the stove you bet I'm saying "NO" as loudly and forcefully as possible, followed by a swat on the behind or a slap of their hand. There are some situations that are life-threatening enough that a shock to their tiny little psyches is quite appropriate.

Cindie

I can pick out the child in the crowd who is hit by mom and dad in a NY minute.   They tend to be the ones who don't play well with others. 

ABA isn't psycho bullshit, and I did address the danger situation.   

We will forget for a minute the mentality of the parents who left a pot of boiling water unattended around children who don't know better than to stay the hell away from it. 

[formerlurker]

Yep, follow through is THE most important thing.  People always wonder at how my kids clean the kitchen, and do it well.  They say "mine never do a good job...blah blah blah.  Well, mine didn't start off doing it perfectly, but they learned, and if it isn't done to "standard" they get called back in to fix whatever is wrong.  They learned it was easier to just do it right the first time, than to keep getting pulled back in from whatever they are doing to fix it.

Exactly.  Consequences to behavior -- parents stay consistent, children learn how to behave.  Easiest concept but totally misses the boat with some parents. 

[Zeus]

I can pick out the child in the crowd who is hit by mom and dad in a NY minute.   They tend to be the ones who don't play well with others. 

ABA isn't psycho bullshit, and I did address the danger situation.   

We will forget for a minute the mentality of the parents who left a pot of boiling water unattended around children who don't know better than to stay the hell away from it. 

That's a hard declaration. More than likely the kid that doesn't play well with others is a only child and spoiled rotten, that's the parents fault not the childs.

With my son a couple swats on the behind or the back of his hand was enough for him to comprehend No meant no. My daughter on the other hand was more of a let's see if you are bluffing type.  my children for whatever reason were able to accept a no from me at face value whereas with their mother no had to be followed by a disertation of what & why.

[formerlurker]

Not really.   Parents who place the fear of God in their children by threat of violence raise children who learn how to obtain their objective the same way.   Those children are usually extremely aggressive.   Spoiled children trantrum, tattle tale, whine and bully.   I am involved in enough parent groups to make the distinction quickly. 

Babies/toddlers learn by rote methodology.   Redirecting them, modeling and rewarding proper behaviors are the foundations on which you build on.    I am going to guess that your children respect your method of discipline because of your consistency in effecting real consequences to their aberrant behaviors.  My dad never laid a hand on us (7 children), but he instilled the fear of God and respect for his position in all of his children through consistent effective parenting.  I don't consider a swat here and their as hitting a child, but rather a parent who screams as a means of communicating their displeasure, and then couples that with violence/hitting as something that is not very effective long term. 

 

[FlaGator]

When their knowledge is adequate to understand the explanation, then they get an explanation... maybe.

[delilahmused]

I can pick out the child in the crowd who is hit by mom and dad in a NY minute.   They tend to be the ones who don't play well with others. 

ABA isn't psycho bullshit, and I did address the danger situation.   

We will forget for a minute the mentality of the parents who left a pot of boiling water unattended around children who don't know better than to stay the hell away from it. 

And you have how many children? I don't care what you addressed. These are MY children, they grew up just fine without my consulting the text for child psychology 101 every time I had a disciplinary issue. As for the boiling water, if your 4 year old comes running into the kitchen with a gash in his head and blood pouring out because he fell off the top bunk (DO NOT lecture me about "safety" I raised, active, normal boys who played like active, normal boys), I'd probably rush said child to the sink (notice I'm not leaving the kitchen ) to clean the wound and see how bad it is. Sometimes a cut on the forehead bleeds a great deal but isn't as bad as it looks once it's cleaned up. Meanwhile, the 2 year old comes bounding into the kitchen and heads for the stove. I turn around, say "NO" loudly and firmly and slap the little hand reaching for the pot. You can't reason with a 2 year old and they need to understand there's a huge difference between grabbing for a boiling pot and not sharing the Spiderman action figures. Notice, I haven't left the pot unattended, but do have an "emergency" issue that demands immediate attention. This is a real and not uncommon situation in households with more than one child running around with minds of their own. My sons have plenty of friends, they had plenty of friends growing up...at least there were certainly plenty of kids in the back yard playing and coming in to grab a snack or something to drink. I took psychology courses in college too and read all the books while I was pregnant. Then I had children and discovered real life often can't be addressed by neat little chapters in the latest trendy parenting book. Not to mention, children are individuals and what works for one won't necessarily work for another. I'm guessing I didn't destroy their fragile little minds too terribly much since both boys are happy, successful adults.

Oh, and a bitch-slap for thinking you know how to best raise other people's children.

Cindie

[formerlurker]

And you have how many children? I don't care what you addressed. These are MY children, they grew up just fine without my consulting the text for child psychology 101 every time I had a disciplinary issue. As for the boiling water, if your 4 year old comes running into the kitchen with a gash in his head and blood pouring out because he fell off the top bunk (DO NOT lecture me about "safety" I raised, active, normal boys who played like active, normal boys), I'd probably rush said child to the sink (notice I'm not leaving the kitchen ) to clean the wound and see how bad it is. Sometimes a cut on the forehead bleeds a great deal but isn't as bad as it looks once it's cleaned up. Meanwhile, the 2 year old comes bounding into the kitchen and heads for the stove. I turn around, say "NO" loudly and firmly and slap the little hand reaching for the pot. You can't reason with a 2 year old and they need to understand there's a huge difference between grabbing for a boiling pot and not sharing the Spiderman action figures. Notice, I haven't left the pot unattended, but do have an "emergency" issue that demands immediate attention. This is a real and not uncommon situation in households with more than one child running around with minds of their own. My sons have plenty of friends, they had plenty of friends growing up...at least there were certainly plenty of kids in the back yard playing and coming in to grab a snack or something to drink. I took psychology courses in college too and read all the books while I was pregnant. Then I had children and discovered real life often can't be addressed by neat little chapters in the latest trendy parenting book. Not to mention, children are individuals and what works for one won't necessarily work for another. I'm guessing I didn't destroy their fragile little minds too terribly much since both boys are happy, successful adults.

Oh, and a bitch-slap for thinking you know how to best raise other people's children.

Cindie

 

Never said that.   Touched a nerve?     Read my posts next time.

[terry]

The principles of Applied Behavorial Analysis (antecedent, behavior, consequence) can be utilized for all children (and adults).    Once a parent realizes that their actions/response/lack of response can be the antecedent to their child's next behavior they can control how events/tantrums play out. 

...

Not really related to this topic, but my youngest was diagnosed with autism when he was 3 (a bit of an over diagnosis for him, but that's another story).   We also had 18 months of ABA therapy and it worked well.  It wasn't really classic ABA there were a lot of other things going on as well.  One thing that surprised me with Tim, was how well declarative language worked.

When he was basically non-verbal and not listening.   If I said "Tim, pick up your coat" .. I got no response.   Even if he was looking directly at me.   If I said "Tim, your coat is on the floor".   He looked at me, looked at the coat then picked it up.  It was a real break through in communicating with him.   If I said "Go eat your breakfast".. nothing.. "your cereal is on the table" .. brought him to the table.  I have no idea why it worked, but it did.   

He's six now and communicates about as well as most six year olds but I was amazed at how well just a slight change in my communication style really opened things up for him.

[formerlurker]

Not really related to this topic, but my youngest was diagnosed with autism when he was 3 (a bit of an over diagnosis for him, but that's another story).   We also had 18 months of ABA therapy and it worked well.  It wasn't really classic ABA there were a lot of other things going on as well.  One thing that surprised me with Tim, was how well declarative language worked.

When he was basically non-verbal and not listening.   If I said "Tim, pick up your coat" .. I got no response.   Even if he was looking directly at me.   If I said "Tim, your coat is on the floor".   He looked at me, looked at the coat then picked it up.  It was a real break through in communicating with him.   If I said "Go eat your breakfast".. nothing.. "your cereal is on the table" .. brought him to the table.  I have no idea why it worked, but it did.   

He's six now and communicates about as well as most six year olds but I was amazed at how well just a slight change in my communication style really opened things up for him.

My son (he will be 7 in April) is nonverbal also, with receptive language skills that are fleeting (one day he is "on, the next he is deer in the headlights).   He has a seizure disorder which has come to the front burner these past few months (he had a few febrile seizures when he was 2, and 4 years old but nothing that warranted medication).   I have done a lot of research on them and came across a recent study that shows spikes in brain waves (which my little guy has) disrupts speech and language as there is a microsecond delay in those critical neuro connections.    A great deal of children on the autism spectrum have irregular brain wave activity, which makes sense they have a corresponding speech and language delay.

I have to keep direction very short with my son  -- "coat on", "brush teeth" etc.   He is super smart, he just has a delay in processing the information you provide him.  Keeping it short yields the best response from him.   

What you describe though is very interesting.   "Go eat breakfast" is abstract, "your cereal is on the table" is very concrete.    Is your son Aspie (super high functioning, brilliant, but social and abstract is difficult)?   H5 to you for tackling that language issue mom and sharing that here.    In the world of special needs, parents helping parents is how we get through this.   

[terry]

I was going to switch to PM but other folks might want to join in.  I'll start a thread in the lounge to take the conversation out of this thread.

[delilahmused]

Never said that.   Touched a nerve?     Read my posts next time.

Not at all, but your kind of arrogance pisses me off. The kind of people you find with tenure at universities or posting at DU. No one person, book, etc. has all the answers for all situations, period. You may have addressed emergency situations but it's much easier to sit back and think about how to react in a given situation, it's entirely something else to be in the middle of it. That's what I was trying to point out. It's kind of like the old adage that well-planned battles end when the war starts. Reality trumps theory every single time. I read you're posts and just like I used to tell my children, many times it's not what you say, it's how you say it. We have an entire generation of spoiled, immature adults (and I use the term loosely) raised by a generation of people who were afraid to discipline them, including the occasional spanking. And those children who don't play well with others...often they're also the ones who are so indulged by mommy and daddy they have NO clue how to interact with others. And as I said children are different. What works for one won't work for another, even as a toddler. One of my sons, just the thought that he might be grounded was enough. My other one, you could practically take away everything but his underwear and he was still stubborn as an ox. These are humans with flaws and gifts, not little gingerbread men cut from the same cookie cutter.

Cindie

[formerlurker]

Not at all, but your kind of arrogance pisses me off. The kind of people you find with tenure at universities or posting at DU. No one person, book, etc. has all the answers for all situations, period. You may have addressed emergency situations but it's much easier to sit back and think about how to react in a given situation, it's entirely something else to be in the middle of it. That's what I was trying to point out. It's kind of like the old adage that well-planned battles end when the war starts. Reality trumps theory every single time. I read you're posts and just like I used to tell my children, many times it's not what you say, it's how you say it. We have an entire generation of spoiled, immature adults (and I use the term loosely) raised by a generation of people who were afraid to discipline them, including the occasional spanking. And those children who don't play well with others...often they're also the ones who are so indulged by mommy and daddy they have NO clue how to interact with others. And as I said children are different. What works for one won't work for another, even as a toddler. One of my sons, just the thought that he might be grounded was enough. My other one, you could practically take away everything but his underwear and he was still stubborn as an ox. These are humans with flaws and gifts, not little gingerbread men cut from the same cookie cutter.

Cindie

Never said or implied any of those things.   My kind of arrogance?        Sorry, but if you understood the time that I have committed to obtaining information, and always approaching every parenting technique with an open mind for the benefit of my children you never would have made such a comment.

I have three boys by the way.   My oldest is special needs.   My life is consumed with advocating for him.   I have met and learned from amazing parents who have helped more than any parenting magazine or guru ever could.    ABA is an evidenced based therapy for special needs children.  It is not something you will find Dr. Spock writing about.    I share what I have learned for sharing purposes only.  I appreciate it very much when others share their experiences and hardly get offended if I find myself disagreeing with comments made.     

You clearly did not read my posts prior to you first post as I stated quite clearly how I feel about the occasional swat of a child, consistency to discipline, and parenting in general.   Never at any time did I claim my way or the highway.   You infered that because you didn't agree with me.   

So much for debate eh?