http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4523883It's a long original post, but actually, if the topic's of interest to someone, the original post is well worth reading, and the links too.
But if the subject's not of interest, go to the primitive comments; it's a really fun Hatefest.
Dr_eldritch (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-23-08 09:56 PM
Original message
The Cold Hard Math of Weight Gain
Well, it seems that there’s been another popular flame-thrower topic on DU these days. I have no illusions that I can put the issue to rest, but if I can shed some light on the issue, maybe fewer people will wind up at each-other’s throats or even tombstoned over this. Maybe this can even help a few folks.
First; to those who believe that obesity is just a ‘character flaw’ or even a ‘lifestyle choice’; it’s nowhere near that simple.
Obesity is not merely a ‘choice’. It’s not like walking into the video store and choosing one movie over another. It’s a difficult and horrible condition that generally exacerbates depression that, in turn, often results in further over-eating. Often this is originated by a medical condition or improper childhood nutrition... not the fault of the person. This vicious cycle is as hard to break as adamantium for most people. What’s worse, is the way that obese or even just heavy people are treated in society. Every look is a character judgment. Few people go out of their way to help you if you’re heavy. If you’re obese in this society, you’re often treated as a second-class citizen.
How much more depression and rejection can society dump on a person?
The uphill struggle is terrible, and many of us should be quite thankful that we don’t have to fight that one. We were lucky for any of a number of reasons; no genetic or medical disorders, raised to eat healthy, started and stayed with sports most of our lives, and never suffered a traumatic event and sank into a psychological quagmire wherein food was the only solace.
Those who are obese deserve encouragement, not ridicule or judgment. The latter just doesn’t help.
Now, here are the facts;
The body cannot, under any circumstance, create matter from nothing, nor can it function without utilizing a certain amount of energy from what we consume. The body cannot turn 2000 calories of food into a pound of fat. (A pound of fat contains about 3500 calories)
It simply cannot happen.
The body also cannot function without utilizing calories. Anyone who lives burns calories in proportion to their overall mass adjusted for lean/adipose variation, gender, age, and adverse medical conditions. No medical condition, of any kind, can reduce calorie utilization to 0... except death. No medical condition exists that can reduce calorie utilization to so low a point that only starvation will result in weight loss.
It is a fact that the more massive the individual, the more calories they will burn just sitting in a chair.
In another life, I worked as a weight management specialist and fitness trainer with many people who claimed that they 'couldn't lose weight even if they ate 'barely anything''. But once I spent the day going over their entire diet with them, we found, invariably, that they were well over the level of intake they thought they were at. Every time. The main reason they thought they weren't eating so much is because they were often just hungry all the time. That tends to indicate choosing high glycemic foods, and eating at poorly timed intervals.
One gains adipose mass when the number of calories taken in exceeds the number utilized. The more you weigh, the higher your basal metabolism. Yes every pound of fat utilizes 3 cal/day... that's not much compared to the 14 cal/day of lean mass, but an extra 100 pounds of fat raises the basal rate by 300 cal/day.
The Mufflin equation for RMR is considered fairly accurate:
* For men: (10 x w) + (6.25 x h) - (5 x a) + 5
* For women: (10 x w) + (6.25 x h) - (5 x a) - 161
…but having your RMR measured with an RMR device is accurate to within 1% of your actual RMR.
By the math, a 300 lb, 30 year old, 5'6" woman (136 kg, 168 cm.)
Has a Resting Metabolic Rate of 2255.
That means that doing nothing our subject burns 2255 cal/day.
Under even the worst case scenario, even severe hypothyroidism, ones RMR cannot be reduced by 40%. I have yet to hear of anything that defies this simple physiological fundamental that does not result in death.
Let’s just say that the impossible case is the case, our subject, we’ll call her 'Jane' because she’s a person we all know and love, has a RMR of about 1300. That means that Jane will not gain weight if she takes in no more than 1300 cal/day and engages in moderate exercise. In fact, under those conditions, she will lose weight. That’s 3 300 calorie meals and one 400 calorie meal per day. Very light meals to be sure… but not starvation.
In my other life I personally measured the RMR of nearly a thousand people with a BodyGem. It measures o2 in and out to accurately determine RMR. I've seen some unexpected measurements, but never anything below 1000 cal/day. I've had MANY heavy people tell me I would get a 'low' reading because 'they can't lose weight'.
I've never had a heavy person, with any condition register under 1600. Sure enough, when we restricted and thoroughly monitored their caloric intake... they lost weight.
That’s the bottom line; If you are heavy, you likely have a higher RMR than a lighter person. That means that it really is a matter of watching your intake and getting what activity in that you can.
I never recommend doing anything based on what you read on an internet discussion board. Do some research, consult a professional, and make good choices. Just knowing your RMR and getting into counting calories can make a huge difference. Understanding the Glycemic Index, nutrition, and the importance of proper macro-nutrition (protein, carbohydrate, fat) can only help as well.
The first, and sometimes hardest step, however, is finding a way to really love yourself after so many years or decades of mistreatment and low self-esteem. We always help the ones we love… so once you love yourself, there’s a better chance you’ll take care of yourself.
After all, we want good, conscientious people to be around as long as we can keep them here.
Glycemic index;
http://www.glycemicindex.com /
List of foods by GI;
http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm
(not all of them)
Macronutrients;
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/handouts/macronutrients.ht...
RMR Calculator;
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calrmr.php
As this isn’t an attempt at a flame thread (however else it may turn out), I have no idea if enough people will see it. So if you do read it, and you’re sick of the flaming give it a K+R
OmahaBlueDog (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-23-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Is this DU? I swear it's become like WebMD or the WeightWatchers website.
Can't we go back to hating Republicans, regardless of body mass index?
wildflower (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-23-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Actually, I thought medical advice wasn't allowed here
I'm responding to your sentence "One wouldn't consider it rude to discuss and recommend proven therapies and treatments which can mitigate, say, cancer or heart disease." I think discussion is okay, but not recommending.
ON EDIT: I just checked and the rules say not to post questions asking for medical advice, though I couldn't find anywhere it says not to give medical advice. But I thought that was technically against the rules.
Dr_eldritch (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. ....
"I never recommend doing anything based on what you read on an internet discussion board. Do some research, consult a professional, and make good choices."
Yeah, doc's right; he did in fact say that in his original post, word-for-word.
The doc being a primitive, I had to check to be sure.
The bulk of the thread is other primitives challenging the credentials of the doc primitive; it gets really hot and nasty.
Really nasty, and there's a lot of it.
But for the record, franksolich endorses the perceptions of the doc primitive; unlike the primitives, franksolich considers the message, and not the messenger. franksolich has no idea about the messenger, but the message appears spot on.
npincus (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. not very nice.
I think the OP is providing valuable general information with intention of helping people understand and manage their weight, and of course there would be medical exceptions and other extenuating circumstances. A member of my family takes steroids for a medical condition and is overweight, and she should not expect the same results as a someone her height and weight who follows the OP's advice.
Lerkfish (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. oh yeah, after all the fat-hate here lately, *I'm* the one who is not very nice.
maybe I'm just a little defensive after all the well-meaning attempts to make me want to commit suicide for being overweight.
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. But what changed in the last 20-30 years to cause the obesity epidemic in the US?
And not in most other nations?
It's sure as heck not genetics.
It's more to do with more sedentary lifestyles.
Food-stamps probably have something to do with it, too.
I'm not in favor of abolishing food-stamps, but I am in favor of making food-stamp purchases more restrictive, favoring basic essential do-it-yourself food ingredients; stuff that people have to actually make. No sodas and candy-bars either.
Ooops, the subway cat rolls in.
undergroundpanther (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
122. It has to do with pollution it has saturated the planet to the point it is effecting us now.Kids with asthma are more common than ever.
Why do you think that is?
Two headed frogs and conjoined twins were once rare too.
but now they are not rarities, fat has been seen as a form of inflammation.Inflammation is a symptom of being infected or poisoned.
after which the subway cat quotes from, and links to, various medical articles, which aren't as interesting as what the doc primitive posted, so never mind
Roland99 (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #132
146. And a great lack of self-control, too.
When I got to the point that I was about 15-20lbs overweight I decided to do something about it. I joined the YMCA and started eating better.
4 months later I was down to an ideal weight for my height and had dropped two jeans sizes.
Doesn't take much effort, just the willpower to be healthy (at least for the vast majority of people).
Now, this comment by the rolling primitive, above, should've caused some violence among the primitives, but for some reason it didn't.
undergroundpanther (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
117. Very thoughtful post, Dr_eldritch.I got a question for you..
Great post,
But I think you forgot a few things in your equation. You are assuming said heavy person is not taking any medications.Weight gain is a very common side effect of many kinds of medications.
And the way medications mess with your body is scary.
Secondly,You are assuming the hypothetical person has no genetic or physical issues interfering with weight loss.
Third, fact is,we live in a chemical stew.Our environment and our foods are contaminated,being poor increases the chance the food you eat will be low quality.This can effect weight as well.
Fourth, you didn't add in severe stress,in adulthood you mentioned it in childhood ,so kudos for that.. but domestic abuse is so common,rape is too common (1 in 4 girls are raped before age 18)and people get huge doses of stress at various times during their entire lives to deny emotions like lonliness,dispair or vulnerability or anger .Emotions our culture taboos.Emotions that should evoke compassion, or action but get us scorn instead..that messes with you too.
Here is my question: Can you explain to me how my situation below,fits into your model of calories in/out.I'm curious.
I lived at a halfway house. I was on meds but my weight was not effected by it. We were served meals there.They same portions everyday. I was 170 lbs.
One day while there,I faced an attempted rape,I beat the crap out of him,but the stress and triggers overwhelmed me anyway.I was still eating the same portions at the halfway house .On the same meds, no dose changes.
I gained two pant sizes in two weeks.
I was eating the same portions that I was eating before the incident,yet after that incident my weight jumped up at least 40 pounds with no additional food intake or medication changes. How?
At this house I could not go out and eat,and my food portions were controlled by the way they managed food there.I was not in control of the food I ate.I ate what they gave me.That's it.
So how did I gain over 40 pounds? in TWO weeks?
The doc primitive answers, but it's obvious he doesn't take the subway cat seriously, as nobody else does either.
Ah.....an allegedly authentic physician appears on Skins's island:
happy5 (51 posts) Mon Nov-24-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
120. I'm the biggest liberal, but give me a break...obesity in America is caused by mega portions and a sedentary lifestyle, legit medical conditions are a MINORITY. I lost 30 pounds last year via Weight Watchers, and I have kept the weight off since March. True, I have to lose another 25 pounds, but the key point is I stopped making excuses about having "fat genes" or a medical condition that predisposes me to gain weight.
As a young doctor, it upsets me having to hear people they "hardly eat" but still are overweight. It is difficult to lose weight, expensive to buy good, wholesome food, and hard to take the time for exercise, and you may not notice any changes in the first couple of months, but the weight will come off. Don't give me the "medical condition" crap. If you have hypothyroidism (common cause of sudden weight gain), get treatment, if you have diabetes, stick to your diet, and it will slowly control, even reverse itself, when you lose some serious weight.
The above calculators are nice, buy try this instead: (1) STOP making excuses, (2) have a realistic plan initially ("I want to drop 10 pounds in the next 4-5 months"), (3) take a toll of what it will cost you (no more late meals, only one happy hour every 1-2 weeks, cooking for the week, no going out unless it is planned), (4) look for help (Weight Watchers, a local nutritionist), and then (5) DO IT!
You have to eat. Don't claim you don't eat breakfast, have a small lunch, eat dinner, and then complain you don't lose weight. Eat most of your food at breakfast, medium to light lunch, eat the rest at dinner. Maybe one snack per day, that is it, 4 meals. And STOP eating junk food. You all know what I'm talking about. Hamburgers and hot dogs are American, but just because you are a patriot doesn't mean you have to eat one every day.
Rome wasn't built in one day. People that weigh 400, 300, or even 230 like I did, want to lose 8 pounds per month. Ain't gonna happen... be realistic, and be patient.
Sorry for the little rant, hope this helps.
undergroundpanther (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. your rant does not help
You sounded like an insensitive asshole.
I am NOT sedentary but I am fat.
I live in sprawl and I have no car, too POOR to have one. So I haul 40 pounds of groceries from the store to my home a half mile one way, another half mile back,and if I go anywhere I walk there.I can walk for hours and not get winded.Fat but fit.It exists.
I get groceries 2 times a week,and walk somewhere nearly everyday despite degenerative disc disease, yeah exercise will fix everything.You don't know shit.
Your rant was scapegoating crap..So curb your ignorance and bigotry.
nichomachus (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
121. And poverty is caused by not having any money
Whenever we give people lots of money, they're not poor any more.
Unfortunately, poverty, like a weight problem, is much more complicated than that.
undergroundpanther (1000+ posts) Mon Nov-24-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Poverty is caused by greedy people
Funny7 how fat bodies are hated yet over large bank accounts are not questioned as a dire problem.
Nobody has a right to be rich if others suffer because of your greed.
Now, this is a really funny thread, but really long too.
The doc primitive takes a lot of grief from the fat primitives, but holds his ground well. I just promoted the doc primitive into first-tier primitivedom; he used to be a third-tier primitive.
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Tue Nov 25th 2008, 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
"How I Lost 1LB Per Day"
It really wasn't that hard at all --
no diet, no exercise! -- Kelly
CLICK HERE to read my story!
