Union Card-Check

[rich_t]

Good for you    A working partnership between management and the workforce is something I find absolutely glorious, it does exist with certain companies... and I generally don't feel their is even a benefit of having a union when you have a whole organization striving towards the same goals together.  That's not always the case unfortunately...

I work for a business unit owned by Verizon.  A partially unionized company after the WorldCom Merger.

I don't feel that a Union will benefit me in any way, shape or form.

and I generally don't feel their is even a benefit of having a union when you have a whole organization striving towards the same goals together.  That's not always the case unfortunately...

 Care to post an example?

[rich_t]

Surely, albeit perhaps in pm, which example were you asking for?

Nay, not via PM...  Here in public.

The type of example I was asking about would be one that has a whole organization striving towards the same goals together, keeping in mind the context of the overall thread.

[NHSparky]

Oh come on... you have to admit it was funny    Now lets head back to the lounge and share some 

Seriously though, I advocate those provisions (cherry picking, qualifications, etc.), and many locals do have them.  If the local your company contracts out of doesn't... that's their choice.   

Actually, it's not really a choice of the company, or it's at best a Hobson's Choice.  The unions in MA and NH are basically on the same sheet of music about having a strict listing of who works when and where.

[rich_t]

No worries.  I think Toyota's managerial style, which has been applauded in numerous case studies and in business reviews would be a shining example.  It's in an industry which typically is unionized.  They work together, do not have a loathsome "us versus them" mentality, share performance goals and rewards, appreciate input, and typically maintain high levels of morale and appreciation.

Good example.

You seem to be an advocate of unions based on your previous commemts here. How would the workers of Toyota benefit from a union?

I apologize if I have mischaracterized you as a union supporter, but you have come off that way to me.

[AllosaursRus]

People are people... there is scum in every facet of life from the pastors and priests, to judges, doctors, executives... and yes... amongst union folks too.  Rather than shine a light on the individuals crimes and bring them to justice ... lets chastise and malign everyone in a remotely similar profession.    

Not all stewards use union business as an excuse to get out of work, nor are they often afforded that privilege.  If one actually takes on the responsibilities that they should, it is far more hardship and work than what they could be doing... as in just their primary profession.

As for your Red Cross drama that's easily remedied administratively, if it's felt that it's being taken advantage of.  Bitching huh... so you're bitching about someone else bitching

Come on mate, while not knowing the given industry you're in.  Having people who can finish eight hours worth of work in less time is generally a good thing.  Depending on the type of work, it may very well be essentially impossible to assign another job to do in their given eight hours and location.  Heck, in the production world one can even be punished for producing more units than alloted for that time span.

People are people... shrugs...

Holy Moses! I need to roll up my pant legs after that post!

What do ya mean if a person gets done with their work under 8 hours is a good thing??????????

I thought what you get done in 8 hours is what you get done in 8 hours!

I didn't know I could do 8 hours work in 4 hours and then call it a day, and get paid for 8? That's a new one on me!!!!!!!!!!!

I've always worked 8 hours, and what ever I produced is what 8 hours was worth on that particular day. Some days more, some days less. Are you telling me, you have set a limit for 8 hours work? I suppose if you hit that limit in 2 hours you can just skate the rest of the day. Shit, can't imagine why companies can't stand unions!

Didn't know you union personell could figure out what I should produce in 8. Just how in the hell did you come up with those figures?????? Ya got some kind of crystal ball? Who the hell are you to tell me what I can do? Ya think the company looks at it that way?

Oh, and by the way, I AINT your mate! I certainly don't know you well enough to call you that.

Unions suck big green donkey D****! Even at McDucks they realize you won't have the same production day in and day out. Sounds to me like you're a SLACKER. What ever you can get away with, you will, as long as you cover some kind of quota!

THAT IS BS!!!!!!!!!

[DumbAss Tanker]

As for unions, in all fairness they did a tremendous public service in making work reasonably safe, instead of the total crapshoot for life and limb that it was at the dawn of the 20th Century, particularly in the transportation, manufacturing, and natural resource areas.  However they made all this invaluable contribution between about 1890 and 1950, after that government bureaucracies, laws and systems pretty much took over all the important parts of that role (Railway Safety Appliance Act, building and construction codes, even OSHA).  Hate big government and its regulation all you want, but even free market Capitalism requires some checks and balances so the workers won't be reduced to being merely disposable 'material & supplies,' and unions did that, for a time.  Nowadays, not so much, all the positives have largely moved into the government sphere, for good or ill.   

[NHSparky]

Aw, there ya go Vonne, defender of the poor persecuted worker and the unions which will save us all..../sarc

And then you have this.  LINK

Now before you go accusing me of "cherry picking", keep in mind that this is but one example from TODAY, not some obscure Google search.  If you want to go into overall union corruption, please, by all means.  I'm your Huckleberry....

[rich_t]

As for the workers of Toyota, a union would benefit them by having a structure in place where adherence to safety, personnel, quality, production, and legal rules and laws can be brought up as concerns... without the draconian fear of reprisals.

Non-Union plants like Toyota and Honda seem to be doing quite well without Unions.  In fact they are beating the pants off of the big 3 in detroit.

Unions have outlived their usefulness in my opinion, and have become a detriment in many cases.

[docstew]

Holy Moses, Indeed!  Batman Too!  You don't see the potential benefit in a project being finished before its scheduled completion?  Just think of the resources saved!  Wait... that's that magic word... thinking...  

well, resources being saved would be true if there was work being done on the project. if someone does "8 hours" of work in 4, and then takes a 4 hour coffee break, how is that going to complete the project?  seems to me they did 4 actual hours of work and then billed the company for 8 hours of "meeting quota".  sounds like fraud to me.  that attitude kills productivity, especially if you have a shop steward who walks up and says "why don't you slow down a bit... wouldn't want you to get hurt"

[docstew]

You're adding conditions to a fictional example, than ridiculing them.  With the example of a dealership mechanic, I apologize if it wasn't clear enough that the time saved would be spent taking on additional work.  I thought that my point of increasing productivity and profits alluded to that, I apologize if it was to subtle. 

I could delve into this a bit more, there are numerous scenarios to explore with differing replies... but I think that this thread has run it's course. 

Have a great night 

you are correct that if the worker keeps working past their allotted "8 hours" of work, productivity and profitability will increase, and that behavior should be encouraged.

an example from the military... parachute riggers are only permitted to pack 25 parachutes per day, by regulation.  i've talked to some who say they "pack 25 and go home".  i'm not advocating they pack more, cuz they can't afford to make a mistake with a parachute that someone's life will depend on.  but what if they worked on another project?

[AllosaursRus]

Major corporations routinely disregard OSHA guidelines, labor laws, internal policies, and contractual agreements intentionally.  It may not always be some evil plot orchestrated by a tyrannical owner, but tends to generally be a morally astray middle manager who's looking out for his personal fiefdom and performance bonuses or an incompetent first line supervisor.  Individuals tend to not be capable of standing up for their rights, without the special legal provisions afforded their union reps.  With rare exception, and generally only in the most extraordinary incidents, can resolution be fought for in the courts... or even be worthwhile too...

Most professionals whether they be lawyers or doctors tend to band together, creating organizations that regulate themselves and lobby for their members interests.  Why shouldn't skilled trade members?

Perhaps most beneficial to society at large, is that Union Halls tend to serve a member owned talent agency.  With the cyclical nature of many construction and industrial projects, and the round robin of national contractors bidding on given projects.  A union hall allows the creation of skilled trade workforces which these companies and organizations can draw upon and are incapable themselves of creating.  While affording it's members a continual coverage of health care and accrued credits towards vacation and pensions; regardless that they may have worked for a dozen different contractors during a given year.  

 

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!

[AllosaursRus]

Holy Moses, Indeed!  Batman Too!  You don't see the potential benefit in a project being finished before its scheduled completion?  Just think of the resources saved!  Wait... that's that magic word... thinking...  

So you're trying to think, cheers!  If you try thinking a bit more or perhaps even educating yourself, you might discover things called firm bids for projects.  I'd loathe to confuse you any more... so instead of relating it too a complex project... I'll dumb it down...

Have you ever heard of an auto needing to be serviced?  You know, something breaks, routine inspections or alignments.  When you take it in, professional outfits tend to give you a firm bid on the repair or servicing, as is currently known.  That bid is carefully crafted, taking into consideration the work at hand, typical problems that arise, the expected work pace of a competent mechanic, etc.  Now a given mechanic goes to perform the work; no additional problems arise, his personal experience with similar projects save him time from referencing technical specs, and everything just goes smoothly.  He may finish that 3 hour job in 2 hours.  

You agreed to a firm bid.  You're still paying for 3 hours of work, which is the quantifiably agreed value of the work.  The shop keeps the profit of 3 hours worth of work, when only 2 were performed.  The shop has increased it's productivity and profitability.  Often that 3 hour project does take 3 hours to perform.  Sometimes it takes longer than 5 or more hours to perform.  Yet... you agreed to a firm bid, it's their incentive to have it finished early, their detriment to not finish on time.  Regardless, your costs can be calculated in advance for proper planning, comparison, and scheduling on your part.

You don't have to agree to a firm bid, you could have simply contracted hourly the given mechanic.  In that case though, you're hoping 'fingers-crossed' that their reputation and lust for future business, prevents them from... raping you over the coals and padding the time or just slothfully going about it.  While gambling, that no additional problems arise, no matter how minor.

Sometimes, but not always, that incentive is shared with the mechanic.  Meaning that he is paid per job and his hourly rate, rather than by a timer with each job.  That's why great dealership mechanics can earn such a good living.

Your employer may not have known that you weren't just simply being lazy, on those given days when your work production was less.  Why didn't you refund the difference in compensation?  

I'm not stating that I have a set limit for 8 hours of work.  Wait, are you attempting to make astute observations and logical flow path with deductive reasoning... while using an inductive premise?

I'm sure there is quite a bit you don't know, including spelling.  
As for what can be produced in a given eight hour time frame, that doesn't tend to be in the realm of duties for union personnel. The estimation and scheduling of a project tends to be the fiefdom of project managers or other management personnel. That may soon change though.  As the realization that Sigma Six Black Belts with MBA's who have never seen complex machinery or are aware of how it functions, tend to have problems dictating how the project should work on a flow chart. Let alone, their micro-management down to 15 minute increment blocks.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd be inclined to imagine your Dungeons and Dragons character has one  

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, nor would I.  There are things I'd advise though... getting laid, reading a book, taking a chill pill...

Once again education... oh hell... just read a book kid.  Neither them (books) or girls have cooties.  I was quoting Crazy Horse, not you with the mate statement.  Perhaps your reading comprehension isn't grasping certain context... wait... things are becoming clearer!

I love the film Idiocracy!  Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator it's "rich in electrolytes"   

   I thought things were clear before, but now...  So your basis of accusation stems from experience or personal knowledge of flipping Big Macs or Whoppers.  That's just too cute!

Christ on a crutch!! Just exactly what was all that bullshit? I worked for a general contractor for damn near 30 years! You don't know what the **** you are talking about!

You say that you get to tell me what 8 hours of work amounts to, then you tell me the work gets done early! WTF??????????

And as far as bids go, I have bid hundreds of jobs!!! I never, ever went over the bid. The reason I never went over is BECAUSE my crews always did MORE in 8 hours than was in the BID! Get it STUPID! Even if I had gone over we would never have been paid for it, so again WTF are you taliking about, idiot??!

When the Hanford Nuclear Res shut down there was an abundance of "union" carpenters out of work. They were forced to find non-union work. Guess what? That was me. We still paid damn near union scale, but we expected you to bust your ass every ****ing day! Not many of them ever kept up with us lowlifes who produce more in 8 hours than your union buds!!!!!!!!

And gues what moran? I WAS a project manager! 

Sit on it and twirl!

[rich_t]

I'm apprehensive about the comparison of Toyota and Honda versus the Domestics, it's a complex issue that far exceeds the mere presence of unions.

Vonne,

Honda and Toyota vehicles are being built domestically and have been for many years.  I live about 30 miles or so away away from a Honda plant.

I know several folks that work at that plant or have family members that do.  They claim they don't want or need a union.  They have safe working conditions, good benefits and make a pretty decent hourly wage to boot.

Both Honda and Toyota are union free plants.  Some of their suppliers may be in a union but the plants themselves are union free.  They are beating out the big 3 in Detroit for a reason and IMO part of that reason is they can sell a quality car for less due to cheaper labor costs.

[AllosaursRus]

Gender:  Male
Age: 28

That tells me everything I need to know!

Put on 30 years boy and then come talk to me!

[rich_t]

??Moron??

Sorry... I know I mentioned that I was concluded with this thread... but that... was just too cute 

Your "Sit on it and twirl" comment withstanding.

Rich...I proposed what a Union could do for them, as you asked.  I never said they needed one or it would be what's best.  Again, to go off on that tangent though would be quite the thread jack.  Some other time... Some other thread... Have a great night mate 

Ok...  The thread was drifting from the original post.

Card check... what do the unions gain?  Intimidation factor.  As has been previously discussed on another thread here.

[AllosaursRus]

??Moron??

Sorry... I know I mentioned that I was concluded with this thread... but that... was just too cute 

BTW... your reading Comprehension is not so good... as I mentioned earlier.  My niece is about to turn 5, I'm willing to mail you some of the books she's outgrown.

Rich...I proposed what a Union could do for them, as you asked.  I never said they needed one or it would be what's best.  Again, to go off on that tangent though would be quite the thread jack.  Some other time... Some other thread... Have a great night mate 

That figures. Nothing about the points i brought up at all. And exactly how is my reading comprehension come into question.

It surely appears to me you have said that unions are the good lords answer to the working man. According to you, going back to your original post about card check, is that it's the companies intimidating the employees.

I believe several posters including me have pointed out who uses the thugs to get what they want. I have seen it many times in the last half century. It has also been documented.

You then started with the 8 hours work theme of which I have first hand knowledge of both nonunion and union employees who have worked for me over the years. I notice you do not indulge in that theme whatsoever.

You talk about cherry picking when it certainly appears to me that is exactly what you are doing. Why wouldn't I call you a moran? I have first hand knowledge for which I speak, yet you dismiss it out of hand, tell me my spelling is poor, my reading comprehension is lacking, compare me to your 5 year old daughter when I have that many grandchildren, etc, etc...........

Exactly how many jobs have YOU pushed? How many bids have YOU completed and honored? How many union or nonunion employees have YOU supervised?

At 28, I doubt you could compete with my real life experience since I am twice your age.

Like I said, come see me in about 30 years.

[rich_t]

Vonne...

Google the word "moran".

[Crazy Horse]

Ok...  The thread was drifting from the original post.

Card check... what do the unions gain?  Intimidation factor.  As has been previously discussed on another thread here.

This will allow them to circumvent the secret ballot......................They will have a majority on the cards, many of whom just sign the cards to make em go away and have no intention of voting in the union.