one in three teachers says teach creationism alongside evolution

[MrsSmith]

It is an easy question -- how old do you think the Earth is?  In years: thousands, millions, billions?

So is mine...how long were they in the Garden? 

[MrsSmith]

I didn't say he lied -- I say that people who close their eyes to the facts must come to the conclusion that God lied.

Me?  It is very clear that God made this Universe and gave us the ability to discover its wonders.  It is sad when people reject the gift of discovery.

Why would anyone reject the gift of discovery?  On the other hand, why would anyone be so sure that the current scientific beliefs are more accurate than the eyewitness account of the Creator?  It takes way too much faith to believe that our current scientific beliefs are all accurate. 

[MrsSmith]

It is based on knowledge.  Knowledge of languages and culture.  Anthropology.

Or do you decry that as well?

Of course not, since so much of it backs up the Biblical accounts.      There have been many, many digs in the Holy Land that proved the scoffers were wrong when they doubted the Biblical history.  Just as eventually our discoveries will prove that the account in Genesis is completely factual...if He gives us that long, given that we're currently working frantically in the wrong direction in many areas.

[djones520]

Of course not, since so much of it backs up the Biblical accounts.      There have been many, many digs in the Holy Land that proved the scoffers were wrong when they doubted the Biblical history.  Just as eventually our discoveries will prove that the account in Genesis is completely factual...if He gives us that long, given that we're currently working frantically in the wrong direction in many areas.

Could you site examples please?  Just for my curiousity.

[USA4ME]

Qoute where it says that if the Bible is not accurate to the word, then there is no God?

2 Timothy 3:16-17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

If all scripture is given by inspiration of God, then it is accurate to the word.  That's exactly what this verse means; that God's Word was given by inspiration, and it's all that man needs in order to be instructed in righteousness.  If I can't trust God's Word as being 100% accuarate, then I can't trust any of it, and I wouldn't.  I'm certainly not in any position to use it "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."  It would be foolish to do so.

Once again, any "God" who is so weak they can't preserve their word accurately from generation to generation isn't much of a "God."  It's my conclusion that under those circumstance that God doesn't exist.  A God that is unable to make sure His Word is not 100% accurately delivered for us to know and be certain about is a God that doesn't have the power to save anyone from their sins.  So I'll change it a little;  if there were a "god" that could only give us a "Bible (that) is not accurate to the word," then he isn't much of a god, certainly not worth listening to since he can't even deliver us scripture than is reliable.

Guys, there's just no way you're ever going to win this argument, because your argument isn't with me, it's with God, and you're not going to defeat God.  Once you place the Bible in the "some of it is fable" category, then who's to say what is fable and what isn't?  The Bible tells me that Jesus died on the cross for my sins.  Who's to say that isn't a fable?  Or if His death on the cross isn't a fable, who's to say that the fable isn't that He died for my sins?  Maybe He didn't die for my sins at all, but He died in order to assure that the people on the planet Blandron in Galaxy NGC 1275 wouldn't die from Lexortrymothia.  Or that God really wants me to "pray without ceasing."  Maybe that's just a fable, too.  freedumb said that "God wanted us to understand the important moral lessons in His word."  What moral lessons?  Who's to say that these supposed "moral lessons" aren't just fables.  Given that premise, there is an endless amount of Bible references that you could provide but could never prove that they aren't fables.  You've painted yourself into a corner.  Once you cross that threshold, then why believe in God at all?

.

[Thor]

Well, God.  He said there was an evening and a morning, one day.  As He was talking about this planet, either He held it to extremely slow rotations without all the attendant hot and cold effects, or He meant a 24 hour day.  Read Genesis again.  He was very explicit. 

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

and: http://www.netrover.com/~numbers/bible-numbers-2a.html

and for those that might also believe some of what the Quran says:

In the 70th chapter of the Qurán, for instance, a Day is
declared to be 50,000 years!
The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure
whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: Qurán 70.4

Again, like I said, time is relative, at least relative to one's perception. Also, one must remember that the Quran is largely based on the Old Testament with Muhammed's ideologies thrown in. Even Jesus was recognized as a prophet by the Quran.

[USA4ME]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

All that's saying is that God is an eternal being and time has no meaning to Him.  If you have no beginning and no end, what is a day compared to eternity?  what is a week compared to eternity?  what is 50 quadrillion years compared to eternity?

Those verses were never meant to be used to say that when God says "day and night" that he could have meant billions of years.  In fact that's a misuse of those verses.

The Hebrew words in Genesis describing the days of creation are the same words used in other OT scripture denoting a normal 24-hour day.  A simple examination in an Interlinear Bible and/or a good reference book like Strong's Exhaustive Concordance will point the way.  Once again, either one believes God is powerful enough to speak the universe into existance in 6 days, or they don't.  If God is that powerful, then creating an aged earth (and universe) which appears to be much older than it truly is really becomes a non-issue with Him.  Really, if being is so powerful they can just speak and something is formed from nothing, then that same being making a rock that appears to be trillions upon trillions of years old, when it's really only a few seconds old, would be a snap.

.

[MrsSmith]

Could you site examples please?  Just for my curiousity.

Sodom and Gommorrah were found to have high levels of bitumen and evidence of high heat...and were in the areas descibed in the Bible

The walls of Jericho did fall, and fell outwards.


Saul's armor was put in the temple of Ashtaroth and his head in the temple of Dagon.  This had been considered an error because those temples are not usually found in the same place, but they were found.

The Pool of Siloam was found to be inside the city walls, despite "scholars" opposite opinions.

There were conflicting opinions on the "gutter" used by Joab to enter Jerusalem until it was discovered.



For more information, try Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

[MrsSmith]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

and: http://www.netrover.com/~numbers/bible-numbers-2a.html

and for those that might also believe some of what the Quran says:

In the 70th chapter of the Qurán, for instance, a Day is
declared to be 50,000 years!
The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure
whereof is (as) fifty thousand years: Qurán 70.4

Again, like I said, time is relative, at least relative to one's perception. Also, one must remember that the Quran is largely based on the Old Testament with Muhammed's ideologies thrown in. Even Jesus was recognized as a prophet by the Quran.

The fact that God lives outside time does not mean He doesn't know what an evening and a morning are. 

 Gen 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

 Gen 1:6 Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."


 Gen 1:7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.


 Gen 1:8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.


 Gen 1:9 Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.


 Gen 1:10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.


 Gen 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, {and} fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.


 Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.


 Gen 1:13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

 ...There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
...There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
...And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Then He rested the seventh day, and made that DAY a day of worship and rest for humans.  If each day were a million years long, then we aren't even to the first resting period.   

[Wineslob]

The Bible has been translated numerous times from the oldest copies available in the original languages.  There are more preserved copies and partial copies of the Bible than of any other manuscript ever.  The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the copies were unchanged.  If you choose not to believe, that's your prerogative, but it isn't based on "reason and intellect," it's based on assumptions and pride.

I have yet to see any of the portions of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were anything close to the Bible. At least those that were NOT interpreted. I've only read transliterations without the "researchers" "guessing" at missing portions.
 I would, however like to see the entire known scrolls done in the same way as in the book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered".

Freedumb, can you point me to a transliteration of Genesis?

[Chris_]

So is mine...how long were they in the Garden? 

Since I think the "garden" is allegorical it makes your question rhetorical.  The garden and the tree of knowledge is ow God told His children to behave -- or else.

Mine is a very concrete question.  How old is the Earth?  You don't even have to be specific -- magnitude will do.

[Chris_]

I have yet to see any of the portions of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were anything close to the Bible. At least those that were NOT interpreted. I've only read transliterations without the "researchers" "guessing" at missing portions.
 I would, however like to see the entire known scrolls done in the same way as in the book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered".

Freedumb, can you point me to a transliteration of Genesis?

This is as good a starting point as any -- http://www.hareidi.org/ref/Genesis1.htm

It already points to 4 generations of possible misinterpretation.  It isn't a question of "guessing" missing portions -- it just ideas and concepts that don't carry from culture to culture.  Like the mexican "chinga" -- it does not translate to English in any way shape or form. It is 100% culture-dependent.  You can approximate but unless you understand the underlying concept, MEANING IS LOST.

Sorry, that is just Anthropology 101.

[Chris_]

Sodom and Gommorrah were found to have high levels of bitumen and evidence of high heat...and were in the areas descibed in the Bible

The walls of Jericho did fall, and fell outwards.


Saul's armor was put in the temple of Ashtaroth and his head in the temple of Dagon.  This had been considered an error because those temples are not usually found in the same place, but they were found.

The Pool of Siloam was found to be inside the city walls, despite "scholars" opposite opinions.

There were conflicting opinions on the "gutter" used by Joab to enter Jerusalem until it was discovered.



For more information, try Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict."

Evidence of modern history suggested in the Bible is not evidence of ancient history (millions or billions of years prior). It is like saying "I found a bottlecap from 1964 -- there must have been bottle factories in 1192."

God was speaking to His children in concepts and language they could understand in the time.

[Wineslob]

This is as good a starting point as any -- http://www.hareidi.org/ref/Genesis1.htm

It already points to 4 generations of possible misinterpretation.  It isn't a question of "guessing" missing portions -- it just ideas and concepts that don't carry from culture to culture.  Like the mexican "chinga" -- it does not translate to English in any way shape or form. It is 100% culture-dependent.  You can approximate but unless you understand the underlying concept, MEANING IS LOST.

Sorry, that is just Anthropology 101.

With the scrolls the sections are gone/missing or un readable. Some of the reasearchers would guess at the missing sections from the previous sections. They really diden't know.

Very interesting reading at the link. TY.

[Sam Adams]

Teachers should teach that God created the heavens and the earth in six days. Because He did. Everyone, in whatever position, should promote the truth.

This may not be exactly what evolutionists believe, but so be it. They, and their theory, certainly have enough problems to deal with.

[MrsSmith]

Since I think the "garden" is allegorical it makes your question rhetorical.  The garden and the tree of knowledge is ow God told His children to behave -- or else.

Mine is a very concrete question.  How old is the Earth?  You don't even have to be specific -- magnitude will do.

I think the "concrete" age of the Earth is allegorical. 

[MrsSmith]

Evidence of modern history suggested in the Bible is not evidence of ancient history (millions or billions of years prior). It is like saying "I found a bottlecap from 1964 -- there must have been bottle factories in 1192."

God was speaking to His children in concepts and language they could understand in the time.

  As civilization is only a few thousand years old, it isn't surprising that the proofs of biblical cities are somewhat less old than the beginning of civilization.  The Bible makes no pretense at accounting for millions and billions of years that didn't exist.  It only accounts for the time since Creation.

[Chris_]

I think the "concrete" age of the Earth is allegorical. 

Very simple -- how OLD is the Earth using current time measurement?  Hundreds, thousands, millions or billions?

Quit playing word games and answer the question.  I have been 100% clear -- the Bible is an allegorical reference designed by God and written by many men over a relatively short time to tell us how He loves us and to describe in detail our relationship to Him.  It is not a science text and contains little science (some can be inferred) since that was never its intent.  The latter passages include some history, but that does not make it a historical text, else it would describe the Olmecs (for example).

Answer the question.

[Chris_]

  As civilization is only a few thousand years old, it isn't surprising that the proofs of biblical cities are somewhat less old than the beginning of civilization.  The Bible makes no pretense at accounting for millions and billions of years that didn't exist.  It only accounts for the time since Creation.

"It only accounts for the time since Creation."

Which was how long ago?

[Chris_]

...
Answer the question.

I've been wondering when you would get around to doing just that.

[MrsSmith]

"It only accounts for the time since Creation."

Which was how long ago?

Unless we know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before death began, there is no way to count.  Scriptural counts give an estimate based on whenever Adam started counting his years, something that makes no sense for an immortal.  So, the earth is as old as the best scriptural count plus whatever time Adam and Eve lived in the Garden.  It could have been 2 days, it could have been a million years.  When you die, ask them!  They may remember.  

[Chris_]

Teachers should teach that God created the heavens and the earth in six days. Because He did. Everyone, in whatever position, should promote the truth.

This may not be exactly what evolutionists believe, but so be it. They, and their theory, certainly have enough problems to deal with.

Yes, TToE has to deal with its problems the same way that astronomy has to explain the Red Shift and geology has to explain Pangea.  Right?

Please explain how the Biblical story of creation is "better" than, say, this one:

First there were giants. The giants lived on the land and ate plants that they gathered. One day, when it was almost winter, a mother giant and a father giant had a baby girl. Her name was Sedna.

As the days got shorter, Sedna got bigger and bigger. Every day she got bigger. Soon she was huge - bigger than her giant mother and father. She got so big that there wasn't enough food for her anywhere. She got so hungry that she started to bite her mother and father's legs!

Well, that was too much for her parents. They managed to push Sedna into a blanket and between them they carried her to their canoe. It was dark but there was a moon to see by and they paddled the canoe out to sea. When they got way out in the middle of the ocean, where you couldn't even see the land, they dumped Sedna overboard into the cold water and left her to drown.

Inuit kayak
Inuit kayak (about 1890 AD)
That was that. They started to paddle their canoe home, feeling cold and ashamed of themselves for dumping their own daughter overboard. But they had just started when the canoe stopped - they couldn't seem to make it go no matter how hard they paddled. Oh no! They saw that Sedna's huge hands were holding their canoe and rocking it. She was going to toss them into the ocean and they would drown!

Inuit sea lion carving
Inuit carving of a sea lion
(American Museum of Natural History)
So Sedna's mother and father started to chop at Sedna's fingers with their sharp stone knives and they cut off her fingers, one by one. But as Sedna's big fingers splashed into the water, they changed into animals. One finger became a whale. One finger became a seal. One finger became a walrus. One became a salmon.

Sedna swam to the bottom of the ocean and stayed there. The fish built her a tent there to live in. She still lives there, and if we are hungry, we can ask Sedna to send us more food, even in the winter.

Will you tell the people who believe this to be origin of the Universe they are wrong?  And on what basis?

[Chris_]

Unless we know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before death began, there is no way to count.  Scriptural counts give an estimate based on whenever Adam started counting his years, something that makes no sense for an immortal.  So, the earth is as old as the best scriptural count plus whatever time Adam and Eve lived in the Garden.  It could have been 2 days, it could have been a million years.  When you die, ask them!  They may remember.  

The Bible tells us how old Adam lived -- do you now decry that figure?

[Chris_]

I've been wondering when you would get around to doing just that.

Which question?  You haven't posed any.

[Chris_]

Which question?  You haven't posed any.

...just the ones you ignored, but that's okay.  I never really expected answers.