one in three teachers says teach creationism alongside evolution

[MrsSmith]

No one has claimed science knows more than God -- that particular strawman is always irritating.

For the last time -- science is SILENT on God. It is a tool we use tro explain the physical Universe God provided.

As far as your other strawman -- the idea ANYONE says science is "perfect" -- that also misrepresents my statements and the scientific process. Science has built-in mechanisms to correct itself.  The scientific METHOD probably won't change in millenia. 

We saw that in action when Eisenstein laws of gravity replaced Newtonian laws in the science world. And the theory of Gravity is still being hotly debated.

But apples still fell from trees, despite the change of the theory.  And man still evolved from lower life forms, no matter how many laypeople don't like that idea.  In fact, the more data we gather (you know there are BILLIONS of data points now, right?  None of which contravene TToE), the more it is clear that TToE is broadly accurate.

God said that man did not evolve from lower forms.   Obviously, the science of evolution hasn't gotten it right, yet.

[Chris_]

No one has claimed science knows more than God -- that particular strawman is always irritating.  You mean like the "angels holding up airplanes?  That strawman?

There is a difference between an analogy and a strawman argument. 

Just because someone has a belief -- be it literal creationism or angels holding up an airplane  -- it has no scientific weight. To say that when someone understands science that means they are saying science knows more than God is a strawman argument.  It is a complete misrepresentation od the argument. See the difference?  Try hard.

God spoke the Universe into existence.  In doing so, He began the process that ended up being Man.

[MrsSmith]

There is a difference between an analogy and a strawman argument. 

Just because someone has a belief -- be it literal creationism or angels holding up an airplane  -- it has no scientific weight. To say that when someone understands science that means they are saying science knows more than God is a strawman argument.  It is a complete misrepresentation od the argument. See the difference?  Try hard.

God spoke the Universe into existence.  In doing so, He began the process that ended up being Man.

Just curious...which parts of the Bible do you believe, and which do you toss under the bus? 

[Chris_]

God said that man did not evolve from lower forms.   Obviously, the science of evolution hasn't gotten it right, yet.

He said no such thing.  Show me in the Bible -- any language -- where He spoke of evolution at all.  While you are at it, show me where He explains gravity, physics, quantum mechanics, string theory, astronomy and chemistry.

His story of Adam was a simplification to show Man's relationship with God -- not a science text on the process by which Adam was actually created.  he had to summarize for the very very simple savages to whom He was speaking.  You don't tell your 2 year old the detailed how he/she was brought intro existence do you?  Man 3 thousand years ago was pretty much a 2 year old in terms of the ability to read, write and reason.

[Chris_]

Just curious...which parts of the Bible do you believe, and which do you toss under the bus? 

I believe the whole thing -- as a theological text.

[Woody]

Like I mentioned earlier, God is clever enough not to leave his fingerprints all over his creation.  I'm guessing that He would not leave behind any evidence other than what we feel in our hearts.  Otherwise, we could have belief without faith. 

What's wrong with the idea that evolution is God's plan?  Why does it have to be a literal interpretation?  Why does there have to be conflict between Darwin and God? 

[Chris]

What's wrong with the idea that evolution is God's plan?  Why does it have to be a literal interpretation?  Why does there have to be conflict between Darwin and God? 

Because the Bible states that God made Man in his own image.  Maybe the thought of being "evolved" from a ****ing ape is just a little disgusting.  Man was a divine being before the Original Sin happened and Adam was cast out of the garden.

jmho.

[rich_t]

Like I mentioned earlier, God is clever enough not to leave his fingerprints all over his creation.  I'm guessing that He would not leave behind any evidence other than what we feel in our hearts.  Otherwise, we could have belief without faith. 

What's wrong with the idea that evolution is God's plan?  Why does it have to be a literal interpretation?  Why does there have to be conflict between Darwin and God? 

Excellent post, Sir.

[rich_t]

Because the Bible states that God made Man in his own image.  Maybe the thought of being "evolved" from a ******* ape is just a little disgusting.  Man was a divine being before the Original Sin happened and Adam was cast out of the garden.

jmho.

God's physical image?  Does he even have one?

Did time as we know it, even exist before God created the heavans and the earth?

Genisis states that God created it all in 6 days and rested on the 7th. IIRC

Does God use the same 24 hour clock that we humans created?

[Chris_]

He said no such thing.  Show me in the Bible -- any language -- where He spoke of evolution at all.  While you are at it, show me where He explains gravity, physics, quantum mechanics, string theory, astronomy and chemistry.

His story of Adam was a simplification to show Man's relationship with God -- not a science text on the process by which Adam was actually created.  he had to summarize for the very very simple savages to whom He was speaking.  You don't tell your 2 year old the detailed how he/she was brought intro existence do you?  Man 3 thousand years ago was pretty much a 2 year old in terms of the ability to read, write and reason.

Yeah, those pyramids were created by morons, huh?

Question for you:  Do you belive that God created everything?

[USA4ME]

He said no such thing.  Show me in the Bible -- any language -- where He spoke of evolution at all.

I can show you in the Bible where it says God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.  Can you give me the scriptures where it says He did it via evolution?  By your own admission, you can't.  So now it's your non-scripture backed beliefs verses scripture backed statements.  You verses God.

His story of Adam was a simplification to show Man's relationship with God

Show me the scriptures where this is the claim.

If you're going to discuss with me how the heaven and earth came into being, you better have scriptures to back up your claims or it's worthless.

And don't give me this logical fallacy crap of "The Bible doesn't talk about gravity.  Does that mean it doesn't exist?"  That's dishoinesty beyond the pale.  The fact is the Bible *does* discuss how the heavens and earth were created, which is in direct oppostion to the concept of millions and millions of years.  That's the only concept under discussion here.  So try and stick with what the scriptures do talk about and not about things they don't.

So start coughing up Book, Chapter and Verse to back up your beliefs, or don't bother.

The same Bible that tells me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God says that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.  If the creation account can't be taken liteally, then the whole Bible is worthless.  I believe all of the scriptures and am not aware of any who truly believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob who don't.  They may claim they do, but they don't.  Someone says they believe in God but how the universe came into being was that God created the circumstances and allowed it to do what it did over a large expanse of time, then God doesn't consider that person to be a believer in Him, and based upon that neither will I.

.

[Splashdown]

Like the wise franksolich, I have no dog in this fight. It contents me to know there is a living God, He guides our life, and He has sent his Son to ensure us a place in heaven.

That said: Jesus taught his followers using parables. Was there really a "Prodigal Son" or a "Good Samaritan," or was Jesus trying to make a point establishing our relationship with God and each other? If there was no actual Prodigal Son, does that make Jesus a liar? Of course not. Can't the Genesis story be a parable about original sin and God's infinite love for us from the moment of cration?

[Peter3_1]

THANK YOU SPLASHDOWN. You have stated my point better than I could have. I get too wrapped up in the evidence.

But, actually, God's "footprints" are EVERYWHERE. Simple things, like water expanding when it freezes, seasons, wind, thunderstorms, falling, birds, fish, whales, the Sun/Moon/Stars and so on all present us with questions that we need to answer. Like the facts of inherence that Mendel gave the building blocks centuries before DNA was discovered. Gravity and basic Physics as established by Sir I. Newton, and even Dr. A. Einstein's theories were all clues that God gave us to help figure it all out.

And, clearly, the Creator intended us to figure it out by ourselves. Both Jesus and St. Paul contain lessons that we should learn to carry us forward to what ever we are intended to be, and to deny fact is not what Christianity or Judism is all about. Let's leave that to the Muslims.


Reread that New Testiment without the help of a Minister.

[Woody]

Well said.  God didn't give me a brain just so I can ignore everything it tells me because someone can use the Bible to justify ignorance.  God didn't give me a heart so I can ignore everything it tells me because someone can use the Bible to justify hate. 

Men of God had good men who would not ignore the evidence before them put to death.  Had they used their brains instead of insisting that their version of God trumps all, we would be much more technologically advanced. 

Men of God presided over wars so long and terrible that vast numbers of people chose to take a dangerous sea voyage to an unknown land just to get away from them.  Had they listened to their hearts instead of what they saw as God, things might have been different.

Men of God used the Bible to justify slavery, calling blacks the 'descendants of Ham'. 

Personally, I think of Science as using our little brains to discern the true wonder of God's creation.  Man is infinitely fallible, and we can find evil in the Bible just as easily as we can find it in Science.  If that means that I'm not a Christian in your eyes, then frankly I don't care; your opinion does not matter.  That judgment is reserved for one being alone. 

[MrsSmith]

Well said.  God didn't give me a brain just so I can ignore everything it tells me because someone can use the Bible to justify ignorance.  God didn't give me a heart so I can ignore everything it tells me because someone can use the Bible to justify hate. 

Men of God had good men who would not ignore the evidence before them put to death.  Had they used their brains instead of insisting that their version of God trumps all, we would be much more technologically advanced. 

Men of God presided over wars so long and terrible that vast numbers of people chose to take a dangerous sea voyage to an unknown land just to get away from them.  Had they listened to their hearts instead of what they saw as God, things might have been different.

Men of God used the Bible to justify slavery, calling blacks the 'descendants of Ham'. 

Personally, I think of Science as using our little brains to discern the true wonder of God's creation.  Man is infinitely fallible, and we can find evil in the Bible just as easily as we can find it in Science.  If that means that I'm not a Christian in your eyes, then frankly I don't care; your opinion does not matter.  That judgment is reserved for one being alone. 

Men without God have done just as poorly.  In fact, far worse.  We've discussed the millions killed by godless leaders repeatedly.

When the Church was so heinous, it was also the main political player.  Most high offices could be purchased... true faith was not required.  This was the reason for the First Amendment.  It was NOT to keep Christians out of politics, but to keep politicians out of our ministries. 

Christians were on both sides of the slavery issue...and a whole lot more of them on the side against.  It was Christian work that eventually ended it.  Ever hear of William Wilberforce? 

Evolution is beyond any doubt something God made.  He built all of his creatures with the ability to adapt to their environment.  This does in no way change the fact that He created each creature.  Man was not evolved from apes, Man and Ape were both created.  Both may have changed since then, but the fossil record constantly reflects older and older "first men."  Just as they've stopped searching for that "missing link" that was so necessary to "prove evolution" when I was a teen, and have stopped talking about it in hopes we'd all forget that no link was found, they've repeatedly found older and older evidence of modern man.  Eventually, when they get it right, it will become obvious that modern man is only a few days younger than any other creature.  All the evidence that is so important to prove that all things were created by evolution will eventually prove that they weren't.

[Chris_]

I can show you in the Bible where it says God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days. Can you give me the scriptures where it says He did it via evolution?  By your own admission, you can't.  So now it's your non-scripture backed beliefs verses scripture backed statements.  You verses God.

So you are on record as saying that the Earth was created in 6 days -- literal days.

Correct?

[MrsSmith]

God's physical image?  Does he even have one?

Did time as we know it, even exist before God created the heavans and the earth?

Genisis states that God created it all in 6 days and rested on the 7th. IIRC

Does God use the same 24 hour clock that we humans created?

Of course God has a physical image.  Jesus is a man.  

The Bible doesn't mention when God created time...though possibly it was when He created light.  

As for the seven days issue, God said "there was an evening and a morning."  He wanted to make those "days" very specific.

For all you who semi-believe, that moment when He spoke energy into existence was a pretty big one.  A Being that can speak energy into existence, build planets and suns, build the universe and set it into motion, write the laws of physics in reality, maybe... just maybe, wouldn't have a big problem going ahead and creating each animal and plant, and Adam.  You suppose?  He told us TWICE that He'd created all things.  Maybe He had a reason for repeating Himself?  

[Chris_]

Both may have changed since then, but the fossil record constantly reflects older and older "first men."  Just as they've stopped searching for that "missing link" that was so necessary to "prove evolution" when I was a teen, and have stopped talking about it in hopes we'd all forget that no link was found, they've repeatedly found older and older evidence of modern man.  Eventually, when they get it right, it will become obvious that modern man is only a few days younger than any other creature.  All the evidence that is so important to prove that all things were created by evolution will eventually prove that they weren't.

Please do not mistake your ignorance for some sort of reasoning.  See the following chart and tell me which one would be your missing link (it isn't the one in blue). It demonstrates a smooth ongoing transition from early hominid to modern man.  There is no talk about a missing link because there isn't a need for one:

[MrsSmith]

[rich_t]

As for the seven days issue, God said "there was an evening and a morning."  He wanted to make those "days" very specific.

The time duration as we know it between evening and morning varies by what planet one is discussing.

Jupiter for example has a slower rotation IIRC.  Therefore the spread of time between morning and evening can and does vary.

I think God created it all.  As to God's physical image...  Jesus as the son of God, was sent to earth in human form according the bible.

I don't semi-believe.  I fully believe that God created the universe.

[Chris_]

The time duration as we know it between evening and morning varies by what planet one is discussing.

Jupiter for example has a slower rotation IIRC.  Therefore the spread of time between morning and evening can and does vary.

I think God created it all.  As to God's physical image...  Jesus as the son of God, was sent to earth in human form according the bible.

I don't semi-believe.  I fully believe that God created the universe.

As do I.

[Woody]

As do I.

Ditto.  I also feel that the theory of evolution does a much better job of explaining the evidence than Genesis does. 

This entire thread illustrates my biggest problem with most organized religion.  Instead of focusing on the Big Message of love and forgiveness, we're arguing over the details of Genesis. 

[The Night Owl]

Oh, but they do say that, and their acolytes are even more noisome than authentic scientists about the matter; I give you the example of the malicious cartoon character primitive, the "Kelvin Mace" primitive, and the instance the nocturnally foul one who, while not accepting evolution 100%, thinks all other theories are garbage.

For the record...

You should probably throw me in with the 100% crowd. Evolution is a science fact. A science fact can at any time be overturned by a new information but that doesn't mean that the fact is in doubt. Evolution has been shown to be a fact and therefore should not be doubted.

[MrsSmith]

Evolution is a scientific fact. That it was the force that created every living creature is a scientific assumption.

[Chris_]

Evolution is a scientific fact. That it was the force that created every living creature is a scientific assumption.

There is no creature alive whose origin cannot be explained by TToE.  The MOST studied creature with the MOST evidence of this is Homo Sapiens.