Happy Hour inspired Immigration rant :-) Schad vs WE !

[Wretched Excess]

Which along with a very anti-women mindset among some there is the reason I asked my account to be suspended.

I said something mildly positive about GWB's immigration plan (yes, I am soft on immigration.  wanna make something out of it?  ), and the next thing I knew, it was about 40-2 against me.  ONE other freeper wanted to espouse the potential positive economic effect of immigrants, legal or not.  it started out as a very hypothetical conversation, but it took me THREE DAYS to fight my way out.

but I didn't back down

[Chris_]

I said something mildly positive about GWB's immigration plan (yes, I am soft on immigration.  wanna make something out of it?  ), and the next thing I knew, it was about 40-2 against me.  ONE other freeper wanted to espouse the potential positive economic effect of immigrants, legal or not.  it started out as a very hypothetical conversation, but it took me THREE DAYS to fight my way out.

but I didn't back down

I'm not as hard-line on immigration as some conservatives. It is one of my few 'moderate' views, but open borders is a no-go.

[Wretched Excess]

I'm not as hard-line on immigration as some conservatives. It is one of my few 'moderate' views, but open borders is a no-go.

I agree completely, but you can't get around the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.  that has been successful for over 200 years.  I am NOT in favor of "open borders", but I can think of many things that the federal government can spend money on besides rounding up 12 million illegals.

killing terrorists, for example.

[djones520]

I agree completely, but you can't get around the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.  that has been successful for over 200 years.  I am NOT in favor of "open borders", but I can think of many things that the federal government can spend money on besides rounding up 12 million illegals.

killing terrorists, for example.

Pretty much in agreement on that.  Though I think I may end up calling INS on an illegal soon.  There's concerns that he may attempt to take one of his daughters (my neice) and run.

[Schadenfreude]

I agree completely, but you can't get around the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.  that has been successful for over 200 years.  I am NOT in favor of "open borders", but I can think of many things that the federal government can spend money on besides rounding up 12 million illegals.

killing terrorists, for example.

Where to start? You're hopeless. We are a nation of immigrants, but most people who have respect for a nation's laws will, as their first action in the country, make sure it is a legal one. If they disregard the immigration laws, what's to stop them from disregarding, say driving laws...

[Wretched Excess]

Where to start? You're hopeless. We are a nation of immigrants, but most people who have respect for a nation's laws will, as their first action in the country, make sure it is a legal one. If they disregard the immigration laws, what's to stop them from disregarding, say driving laws...

when was the first law "controlling" immigrants?  1700?  1800? slavery?

and, in view of that, when was being an immigrant a BAD thing?

I question the foundation of our immigration laws, just like I questioned the foundation of our laws that made it legal for terry schiavo to be murdered.  I only bring that up, schad, because we agreed that it was the foundation of the law, and not the law itself, that mattered.

[ReardenSteel]

when was the first law "controlling" immigrants?  1700?  1800? slavery?

and, in view of that, when was being an immigrant a BAD thing?

I question the foundation of our immigration laws, just like I questioned the foundation of our laws that made it legal for terry schiavo to be murdered.  I only bring that up, schad, because we agreed that it was the foundation of the law, and not the law itself, that mattered.

This lounge thread was pushing for Cryin' in my Beer status and is pulling toward a Politics status. When will you people start dragging it into NSFW status? Wait. I know. How is everyone's alcohol intake going? 

[Wretched Excess]

This lounge thread was pushing for Cryin' in my Beer status and is pulling toward a Politics status. When will you people start dragging it into NSFW status? Wait. I know. How is everyone's alcohol intake going? 

point well noted.  I will split them off.

and I am halfway through my case'de beer.

[Wretched Excess]

thanks to dixie for splitting this thread.

[Wretched Excess]

immigrants have more of the entrepreneurial spirit than "real" americans.  you may not like it, but they do.

[DixieBelle]

You're welcome.

[Eupher]

immigrants have more of the entrepreneurial spirit than "real" americans.  you may not like it, but they do.

My experience with illegals is this:

• They work hard and don't complain out of fear of being caught. That is, until the money starts flowing back to Mexico - then they get pushy and selfish, just like the rest of us.
• They pay payroll taxes, but only if they work for a real company and were somehow able to worm their way past HR's checks (surprisingly easy to do with phony IDs). If they get paid under the table, they pay no taxes.
  
• They have broken the law. And for each day they're here, they break it that much more.
  
  • They make little attempt to assimilate into the population - except their own kind.
     
  
  A laissez-faire approach doesn't fix the problem, just as throwing a bunch of money at throwing the illegals out doesn't fix it. Going after those who hire and maintain the illegals is the beginning of the fix.
  
  But this topic, like abortion, is one of those hot-button topics that does very little but move little electrons around a computer monitor. At the end of the discussion, they're still pouring over the border and they're still sending money back to Mexico. Or Guatemala. Or Iran.
  
  Sealing the borders won't ever happen, either. Like the rats that carried bubonic plague, they'll stow away in rusty freighters and infest our ports.
  
  Becoming a third world country just might do it, though. Now, if Obama is elected, that idea just might have some merit......
  
   

[Wretched Excess]

My experience with illegals is this:

• They work hard and don't complain out of fear of being caught. That is, until the money starts flowing back to Mexico - then they get pushy and selfish, just like the rest of us.
• They pay payroll taxes, but only if they work for a real company and were somehow able to worm their way past HR's checks (surprisingly easy to do with phony IDs). If they get paid under the table, they pay no taxes.
  
• They have broken the law. And for each day they're here, they break it that much more.
  
  • They make little attempt to assimilate into the population - except their own kind.
     
  
  A laissez-faire approach doesn't fix the problem, just as throwing a bunch of money at throwing the illegals out doesn't fix it. Going after those who hire and maintain the illegals is the beginning of the fix.
  
  But this topic, like abortion, is one of those hot-button topics that does very little but move little electrons around a computer monitor. At the end of the discussion, they're still pouring over the border and they're still sending money back to Mexico. Or Guatemala. Or Iran.
  
  Sealing the borders won't ever happen, either. Like the rats that carried bubonic plague, they'll stow away in rusty freighters and infest our ports.
  
  Becoming a third world country just might do it, though. Now, if Obama is elected, that idea just might have some merit......
  
   

that is an outstanding post, pal.

why did you become a conservative?

(which brings to mind a great poll question)

[MrsSmith]

immigrants have more of the entrepreneurial spirit than "real" americans.  you may not like it, but they do.

SOME immigrants have more, not anywhere near all.  I think the difference is that many people who have the entrepreneurial spirit know that they have no chance in Mexico, and a much, much better chance here, so they get here.

I do agree that it's irrational to try to round up 12 million (or however many) illegal immigrants to ship them out.  However, it's completely rational to do what is possible to make them decide to leave on their own,  and to build whatever it takes to stop them from crossing our border at will.  (Especially in the areas where they are destroying state and federal parks doing so.)

Beyond that, someone who has lived here for years...and stayed off government support, should have some way to stay.  A path to citizenship is far more reasonable than a prolonged "war on immigrants," that we'll win just about as quick as the war on drugs and war on poverty.  I don't think the path should be terribly short, easy or even cheap, though.  Legal immigrants pay hefty fees and wait years, illegals should require double that...and should have to prove they are an asset to our country.

I also don't buy that old line about "jobs Americans won't do."  I lived in an area with pretty close to 0% illegal immigrants for most of my life, and every job got done.  In fact, when illegals did move in, wages dropped, unemployment went up, and crime increased.  (Not saying it was the illegals, could have been the people who couldn't find jobs, also.)  We don't NEED them.  THEY NEED US.  Make them earn their place.

[Eupher]

that is an outstanding post, pal.

why did you become a conservative?

(which brings to mind a great poll question)

Please do not misunderstand. I loathe Obama with every ounce of my being.

I have been conservative in my principles and beliefs for a very long time - basically since Jimmah Carter shelved the military.

[Randy]

First they are in no way "immigrants" they are illegal aliens, always have been always will be.
When they sneak across the border to bypass our laws they will never be "immigrants" and they've never had any intention of being one.
considering the La-Raza bullshit they can be considered an invading force and as such, shot on sight, thus eliminating that whole send 'em back problem.

[Schadenfreude]

First they are in no way "immigrants" they are illegal aliens, always have been always will be. When they sneak across the border to bypass our laws they will never be "immigrants" and they've never had any intention of being one.
considering the La-Raza bullshit they can be considered an invading force and as such, shot on sight, thus eliminating that whole send 'em back problem.

Thus the reason for my apples and pancakes comment which is probably in the happy hour thread looking all out of context.  I hate when it has the appearance of drunk posting. 

To call them immigrants is a slap in the face to the legal immigrants who respected the law and followed the process. And as I mentioned before, if they have no regard for the immigration laws, they really have no regard for any of our laws.

WE talks about how harmless the 12MM illegals are to the safety of the US. We don't know that. We just don't know who they are, what their purpose is for being here, and where their allegiances are... why?.... they bypassed all the screening. If any terrorist group wanted to slip into the US, it has been and would be easy as pie to exploit. 

[Crazy Horse]

I just hope one day that everyone can understand................

Illegal Alien...............NOT IMMIGRANT

Immigrant.................Legal Alien

[Thor]

First they are in no way "immigrants" they are illegal aliens, always have been always will be.
When they sneak across the border to bypass our laws they will never be "immigrants" and they've never had any intention of being one.
considering the La-Raza bullshit they can be considered an invading force and as such, shot on sight, thus eliminating that whole send 'em back problem.

H5 Randy (and CH) !! Some people are oblivious to LaRaza (The Race) and MeCha and the entire aztlan thing. Folks, these bastards are sneaky and their plan is starting to work. Look at California. Illegal aliens do nothing but drive down wages in any area they infest. They also have bankrupted some 6 or 7 hospitals out in California. Why?? Because they get services and don't pay for them as most Americans do pay for the services. Here in Texas, it's far worse than many places and the majority of them get paid "under the table". The only taxes they pay is the state sales tax on goods.

[Chris_]

I agree completely, but you can't get around the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.  that has been successful for over 200 years.  I am NOT in favor of "open borders", but I can think of many things that the federal government can spend money on besides rounding up 12 million illegals.

killing terrorists, for example.

We are a nation that was built by a history of accumulating personal wealth.   So lets allow bank robbing and free the ones we have caught.

[Chris_]

I agree completely, but you can't get around the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.  that has been successful for over 200 years.  I am NOT in favor of "open borders", but I can think of many things that the federal government can spend money on besides rounding up 12 million illegals.

killing terrorists, for example.

Illegals cost more than they benefit -- to the tune of $3 billion a year in California alone!  Any investment in repatriating illegals would pay for itself in no time.

And if we would enforce our laws, the illegals would self-deport.  They have already started doing it.