Almost A New Low: Primitives Screech At The Campfire About McCain...

[asdf2231]

Amerigo Vespucci  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 03:48 PM
Original message
McCain retreated to safety, watched his ship burn on closed-circuit TV during his "3 AM moment"

TRIAL BY FIRE
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believ...

Sometimes 3 a.m. moments occur at 10:52 in the morning.

It was July 29th, 1967, a hot, gusty morning in the Gulf of Tonkin atop the four-acre flight deck of the supercarrier USS Forrestal. Perched in the cockpit of his A-4 Skyhawk, Lt. Cmdr. John McCain ticked nervously through his preflight checklist.

Now 30 years old, McCain was trying to live up to his father's expectations, to finally be known as something other than the ****-up grandson of one of the Navy's greatest admirals. That morning, preparing for his sixth bombing run over North Vietnam, the graying pilot's dreams of combat glory were beginning to seem within his reach.

Then, in an instant, the world around McCain erupted in flames. A six-foot-long Zuni rocket, inexplicably launched by an F-4 Phantom across the flight deck, ripped through the fuel tank of McCain's aircraft. Hundreds of gallons of fuel splashed onto the deck and came ablaze. Then: Clank. Clank. Two 1,000-pound bombs dropped from under the belly of McCain's stubby A-4, the Navy's "Tinkertoy Bomber," into the fire.

McCain, who knew more than most pilots about bailing out of a crippled aircraft, leapt forward out of the cockpit, swung himself down from the refueling probe protruding from the nose cone, rolled through the flames and ran to safety across the flight deck. Just then, one of his bombs "cooked off," blowing a crater in the deck and incinerating the sailors who had rushed past McCain with hoses and fire extinguishers. McCain was stung by tiny bits of shrapnel in his legs and chest, but the wounds weren't serious; his father would later report to friends that Johnny "came through without a scratch."

The damage to the Forrestal was far more grievous: The explosion set off a chain reaction of bombs, creating a devastating inferno that would kill 134 of the carrier's 5,000-man crew, injure 161 and threaten to sink the ship.

These are the moments that test men's mettle. Where leaders are born. Leaders like . . . Lt. Cmdr. Herb Hope, pilot of the A-4 three planes down from McCain's. Cornered by flames at the stern of the carrier, Hope hurled himself off the flight deck into a safety net and clambered into the hangar deck below, where the fire was spreading. According to an official Navy history of the fire, Hope then "gallantly took command of a firefighting team" that would help contain the conflagration and ultimately save the ship.

McCain displayed little of Hope's valor. Although he would soon regale The New York Times with tales of the heroism of the brave enlisted men who "stayed to help the pilots fight the fire," McCain took no part in dousing the flames himself. After going belowdecks and briefly helping sailors who were frantically trying to unload bombs from an elevator to the flight deck, McCain retreated to the safety of the "ready room," where off-duty pilots spent their noncombat hours talking trash and playing poker. There, McCain watched the conflagration unfold on the room's closed-circuit television — bearing distant witness to the valiant self-sacrifice of others who died trying to save the ship, pushing jets into the sea to keep their bombs from exploding on deck.

As the ship burned, McCain took a moment to mourn his misfortune; his combat career appeared to be going up in smoke. "This distressed me considerably," he recalls in Faith of My Fathers. "I feared my ambitions were among the casualties in the calamity that had claimed the Forrestal."

The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."

 

Cooley Hurd  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. The USS Forrestal was in danger of being lost, and McCain hid...
 Why do you think he tranferred to the USS Oriskany? Because he lost ALL repect of the crewman of Forrestal.

Amerigo Vespucci  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm finding out that he's actually worse than Bush
 Seriously. To me, Bush was (and is) a frat boy, a screw-up, a guy with a deep, deep Oedipal complex and no ambition beyond sitting back and letting money come to him through his family's power.

McCain, on the other hand (if you want to believe the recent Rolling Stone articles) had / has serious rage issues, little red flags like being defensive over his "diminutive" stature, which led him to pick constant fights with anyone who looked at him sideways (also documented in R.S.)...

But this whole "John McCain is a hero who gave his all for his country" riff rings a little hollow and seems like he'd be the kind of guy to cower in a Florida classroom reading a children's book if the U.S. ever came under attack.

dmr  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Yes, but that was after he left the night of the fire for a 2 month vacation!
 He met and nurtured an alliance with a NY Times reporter while the fire enraged killing and injuring more than a couple hundred sailors. Then he left that night with the reporter and partied. The reporter was the first of many that McCain pal'd with to promote his myth through the years.

His family did him, the Navy and our country a disservice by coddling and giving in to his every whim, temper-tantrums, error of judgments, and selfishness.

I read that long article the other night, and as I read it, I must have said "Wow!" a near dozen of times at his shallowness and callowness. Some of what was written I had heard in bits and pieces through the years, but to see it all in one article along with everything else - it just blew me away!

The thing is, McCain is delusionally spoiled enough to really believe in the myth of himself. So, when we see him talk during the debates or on the campaign trail, he honestly believes he is all that. When people tell him he's changed, he doesn't see it - and that is because he is still the selfish bastard he has always been.

One thing that struck me was why Cindy has bothered to stay with the bastard. With the emptiness and sadness she has endured, she could have taken her money and nice looks and found someone who would treat her well. But, one can never really pre-judge these sorts of things because we just don't know what her internal self-worth is. His treatment of women in general is sickening. Carol is fortunate to be away from him.

I noticed though, the article never spoke of his children. I wonder if it would have been too devastating to them.

Nordic65 (262 posts)     Sun Oct-12-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is pure utter unadulterated BULLSHIT!
 The single biggest reason the situation got so bad had absolutely nothing to do with McCains hinted lack of gallantry, but rather the lack of proper management in controlling the fire. In fact some of the first causalities was the few officers in charge of exactly that task. From there on, the situation went from bad to worse. They simply made bad decisions. Lots of them.

The crew, now without its trained firefighters, tried to put out the fire with water. Not only did it not succeed, but it nearly also sunk the ship.

McCain was on the flight deck, in his plane, got hit by a rocket, the plane/bombs exploded, he escaped - END OF STORY.

This has nothing to do with candidate McCain in 2008, and was not, repeat NOT, a 3 a.m. moment!

 

Raster  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Do you have anything to back up your "information," Nordic65?
 And it certainly seems you feel very strongly about this...

And there's the Troll Call Out at the guy talking sense...

FogerRox  (1000+ posts)        Mon Oct-13-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. 134 military personal died on that ship. Blaming McCain for any part of it is a no win situation
 Its more important to understand that McCain was flying straight and level when his A-4 got hit by a SAM missile. Most A-4s were lost to AAA fire, not SAMs. The A-4 is a very manuaverable plan, and very good at avoiding SAMs.

It is more important that McCain lost his 3rd plane while returning from the Army Navy football game. Ever heard of drinking and driving ?

I've spoken to some liberal Vietnam Vets, they are not comfortable with this line of attack about the carrier fire.

At a certain point those who have not served, need to stand down and defer to those who have served. This might be one of those moments. I'll leave it to everyone to make up their own minds.

RamboLiberal  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Interesting Information
 While I've defended McCain against the false tale floating around the internet and here at times that McCain started the Forrestal tragedy with a "wet-start" which is a complete BS story, it has disturbed me that unlike many others on the ship McCain seems to have done far far less in helping to fight the fires and retrieve the bodies.

This is even more disturbing to find out that McCain took off at first chance for R&R while shipmates bodies remained unrecovered and in many spots the ship was probably still burning.

From what I've read of much of McCain's naval career he was indeed a spoiled Admiral's brat.

starroute  (1000+ posts)        Sun Oct-12-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Brave Sir Robin Ran Away
 Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin! 

[Chris_]

Said the brave keyboard warriors.

[asdf2231]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4225716

There's another one: John "5 planes" McCain is a lie...

Motherless Corksockers.

[GOBUCKS]

The fire was eventually extinguished by TomInTib.
It was one of his earliest Navy Crosses.

[Chris_]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4225716

There's another one: John "5 planes" McCain is a lie...

Motherless Corksockers.

Don't you mean cockless mothersuckers?

[DarkHalo]

I was a crew chief on fighters and let me tell you the last thing we would need in any sort of emergency is some fighter jock trying to 'help' us. Most of the time it is a miracle that they can get both themselves and their egos inside a jet. Last thing we would want is one trying to assume command of maintenance and emergency response troops. Hell, the firemen would run pilots and crew chiefs all off the second they got there as we would just get in their way.

On the flightlines I worked on we had firebottles (USAF term for fire extinguishers) every other jet so there was always one next to each plane. And Im not talking a hand held, no, these were wheeled. On carriers they are fanatics about emergency preparedness. Emergency equipment and personnel are everywhere. Some 'hero' pilot trying to help out is more likely to cost lives than save them. I can see it maybe if someone is in a jet already engulfed in flames and nobody else around yet, sure, but for anything else? No way.

Again, libs are showing their ignorance of the military. Not that it would matter to them as it sounds good to others as ignorant as they are.

[MrsSmith]

I am guessing that I've missed the stories of Obama's mighty valor?  Surely he has done a few Superman-stunts to earn his messiah-badge.  Just simple stunts...saved a kid from a burning building, rescued a drowning man, or dog, or fish.  Something with which to contrast John McCain's actions and service...


 

It's really easy to know what to do when you're sitting on your butt in front of a keyboard.  But then, what can we expect from people who couldn't figure out why our President might take 5 minutes to think things through instead of running, screaming, from a grade school.  

I'd have to bet that every one of them has brown eyes.  Maybe didn't start that way, but got there about the time that yellow stripe appeared on their backs.

[Crazy Horse]

I was a crew chief on fighters and let me tell you the last thing we would need in any sort of emergency is some fighter jock trying to 'help' us. Most of the time it is a miracle that they can get both themselves and their egos inside a jet. Last thing we would want is one trying to assume command of maintenance and emergency response troops. Hell, the firemen would run pilots and crew chiefs all off the second they got there as we would just get in their way.

On the flightlines I worked on we had firebottles (USAF term for fire extinguishers) every other jet so there was always one next to each plane. And Im not talking a hand held, no, these were wheeled. On carriers they are fanatics about emergency preparedness. Emergency equipment and personnel are everywhere. Some 'hero' pilot trying to help out is more likely to cost lives than save them. I can see it maybe if someone is in a jet already engulfed in flames and nobody else around yet, sure, but for anything else? No way.

Again, libs are showing their ignorance of the military. Not that it would matter to them as it sounds good to others as ignorant as they are.

CO2 wouldn't have really worked in this case.

Here's the difference. Those planes were leaking fuel, fuel was around those aircraft. The first folks out there were the trained folks (just about all of em) and when the first explosions happened................they were gone instantly. Leaving a vacuum of trained leadership. Hose teams were laying AFFF (foam) down and then another team would lay down water washing the AFFF off the fire that had smoothered and instantly reignite.

The Navy really didn't understand firefighting the way they do now. I know I watched the videos of that fire in bootcamp. I also know that the instructors pointed out every mistake that the personnel made on the Forrestal.   

[thundley4]

I am guessing that I've missed the stories of Obama's mighty valor?  Surely he has done a few Superman-stunts to earn his messiah-badge.  Just simple stunts...saved a kid from a burning building, rescued a drowning man, or dog, or fish.  Something with which to contrast John McCain's actions and service...

   

[NHSparky]

CO2 wouldn't have really worked in this case.

Here's the difference. Those planes were leaking fuel, fuel was around those aircraft. The first folks out there were the trained folks (just about all of em) and when the first explosions happened................they were gone instantly. Leaving a vacuum of trained leadership. Hose teams were laying AFFF (foam) down and then another team would lay down water washing the AFFF off the fire that had smoothered and instantly reignite.

The Navy really didn't understand firefighting the way they do now. I know I watched the videos of that fire in bootcamp. I also know that the instructors pointed out every mistake that the personnel made on the Forrestal.   

You can bet your ass Tim Dickinson nor any of the other DUmpmonkeys ever saw that film.  Christ, just put them through the firefighting trainer over at Ford Island simulating a Control Room fire, and most of them would be shitting in their FFE's.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

The fire was eventually extinguished by TomInTib.
It was one of his earliest Navy Crosses.

Yes he pee'd on it with his large firehose like penis! He then jumped into the water with a tow line and swam towing the ship back to harbor!

[DumbAss Tanker]

All those pathetic idiots know about "Damage control procedures" involves calling up friendly reporters to put the Dem spin on their latest sex or bribery scandal.

[djones520]

God that story was such a ****ing hit peice it made me sick.  I'd put some damn good money down that Rolling Stone didn't even ask McCain what he was wondering about while he was sitting in the cockpit of the A-4.

[thundley4]

youtube has several videos.  This one almost seems like the training video I was shown. Some are partisan and some are non-partisan, like this one.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I[/youtube]