I dropped this note into the collection basket at my Mom's church today...

[asdf2231]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4055727

bob_weaver (1000+ posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 12:06 AM
Original message
I dropped this note into the collection basket at my Mom's church today:
 Advertisements [?]"You do not have the right to make political statements during the Mass. A major tenet of the United States Constitution is separation of church and state, and you have crossed that clearly defined boundary of separation. Your tax-exempt status is at risk. The church does not have the right to tell parishoners how to vote, or even what criteria to use when voting. This is not the first time this has happened at (-name of church-) If this continues, you will be facing a lawsuit challenging your tax-exempt status. For now, we have decided to donate all the money we would have donated to (-name of church-) in the next 2 months to the No on 8 campaign, to reflect our support of same-sex marriage. After that, we will permanently donate all money that we would have donated to the Mission to Planned Parenthood instead. (-name of church-) will not get any of our money, ever again.

He's going to unleash the Ninja Lawyers on them! 

This is fertile bouncy ground here...

[Chris_]

"You do not have the right to make political statements during the Mass.

Freedom of speech doesn't exist for you, only for enlightened liberals

A major tenet of the United States Constitution is separation of church and state, and you have crossed that clearly defined boundary of separation.

Except, that the phrase is nowhere to be found in the Constitution.

Your tax-exempt status is at risk. The church does not have the right to tell parishoners how to vote, or even what criteria to use when voting. This is not the first time this has happened at (-name of church-) If this continues, you will be facing a lawsuit challenging your tax-exempt status.

Unless of course a democrat speaks from the pulpit, on a Sunday, then it is OK.

For now, we have decided to donate all the money we would have donated to (-name of church-) in the next 2 months to the No on 8 campaign, to reflect our support of same-sex marriage. After that, we will permanently donate all money that we would have donated to the Mission to Planned Parenthood instead. (-name of church-) will not get any of our money, ever again.

If you don't like the tenets of a religion, don't participate in it, but, be an adult and don't whine about it.

[asdf2231]

johnaries  (1000+ posts)       Mon Sep-22-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. They won't read it. File the lawsuit. 
 Better yet, go once more and video-tape it. Then you'll have prima facia proof. 

mycritters2  (1000+ posts)       Mon Sep-22-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. They read it, and it handed them a good laugh. 
 And there's not a lawyer in the land who would even hold the conversation, let alone file the lawsuit. Churches have the right to take a stand--yes, even from the pulpit--on political and social issues. They can tell people how to vote on abortion, gay rights, gambling, even school referenda. The only restrictions are that they can't endorse a party or a specific candidate.

But at least one priest has had a good belly-laugh over this. Why not let a lawyer in on the joke!

A voice of reason in the retarded wilderness...

patomime (117 posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
33. I applaud your bravery....
 Even the very scripture that Christians are supposed to be standing up for says "you cannot serve God and Man."

Clearly, Jesus in his wisdom did not partake in the politics of his day. If Christians were about doing the "real" work they are supposed to be doing, then they would be serving the poor, the broken hearted and lonely.

I left "church" a long time ago, basically when I saw the collection plate going around one Sunday and more than half of the church was struggling to pay bills. Not the minister. He lived in high style!

Sorry-I'm rambling, just a variation on your main theme.

  I can totally get his point there!  I would have normally dismissed leaving an anonymous note full of idiotic ramblings dumped in a collection plate as kind of a chickenshit maneuver but on second thought it's clearly an act of bravery on par with hurling your body in front of a wild bear about to devour some special needs kids!

[Gwitness]

lmao  If that church is anything like mine....the only time the Pastor touches the offering plates is when he takes them off the alter and hands them to the ushers who pass the plates....and then the plates are handed back to the Pastor. who then places them back on the alter.    We have a group of 4 members who then retrieve the plates after the service has ended and the money is counted 4 times and placed in a bank bag and deposited in the bank.     The Pastor does not touch the contents of those plates....ever.

[Chris_]

For now, we have decided to donate all the money we would have donated to (-name of church-) in the next 2 months to the No on 8 campaign, to reflect our support of same-sex marriage. After that, we will permanently donate all money that we would have donated to the Mission to Planned Parenthood instead. (-name of church-) will not get any of our money, ever again.

Sounds like the church is out about $2 also as the DUmmie is witholding 2 months of donations.

I wonder why the DUmmie isn't going to one of those pretend churches where you can believe in anything that you want.

[Carl]

Awww someone got their widdle feelings hurt when something was said at church they didn`t like.

[BlueStateSaint]

What this DUmb**** doesn't realize is that (since he said "Mass," I'm assuming Catholic) the Roman Catholic Church has a stand against gay marriage.  One school of thought says that if they don't say "political" things from the pulpit, then the priests themselves are culpable for the sins of their flocks (where it concerns those views), before God.  The thought there is that they didn't warn against it, and to be a proper "shepherd" of their "flocks," they have to keep the congregation informed of the threats to their eternal souls.

It would be very difficult to prove the DUmb****'s point in court.

[formerlurker]

I dropped this note into the collection basket at my Mom's church today

Come on, seriously?   

Y'all know this jackass did no such thing as his mommy would have clipped his ears right on the spot. 

[Chris_]

I hope this idjit realizes almost all democratic support in the black community comes from the pulpit. 

When the IRS was investigating these churches, all of DU was up in arms.

Damn hypocrites.

[FlaGator]

patomime (117 posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
33. I applaud your bravery....
 Even the very scripture that Christians are supposed to be standing up for says "you cannot serve God and Man."
Clearly, Jesus in his wisdom did not partake in the politics of his day. If Christians were about doing the "real" work they are supposed to be doing, then they would be serving the poor, the broken hearted and lonely.

I left "church" a long time ago, basically when I saw the collection plate going around one Sunday and more than half of the church was struggling to pay bills. Not the minister. He lived in high style!

Sorry-I'm rambling, just a variation on your main theme.

Actually it says:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money

Matthew 6:25

At least they should get the quotes right if they are going to pretend that they know the Bible.

[Chris_]

patomime (117 posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
33. I applaud your bravery....
 Even the very scripture that Christians are supposed to be standing up for says "you cannot serve God and Man."
Clearly, Jesus in his wisdom did not partake in the politics of his day. If Christians were about doing the "real" work they are supposed to be doing, then they would be serving the poor, the broken hearted and lonely.

I left "church" a long time ago, basically when I saw the collection plate going around one Sunday and more than half of the church was struggling to pay bills. Not the minister. He lived in high style!

Sorry-I'm rambling, just a variation on your main theme.

Actually it says:

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money

Matthew 6:25

At least they should get the quotes right if they are going to pretend that they know the Bible.

You gotta understand...their Bible is different than ours.  Theirs is a "living document"...just like the Constitution.  They can make it say anything they want at the time.   

[Chris_]

If you had really been in a church, DUmbass, the walls would've fallen in on you. Would that I believed in hell so you could burn in it.

[Splashdown]

If it was a Mass, then it was a Catholic church.

Sorry, buddy, the Catholic church is against abortion and Gay marriage. If that offends you, find another church. We let you do that now. We don't even burn you at the stake anymore!   

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

 

gratuitous (1000+ posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
58. **** YEAH!
 I am so sick and tired of churchy folks telling me to have regard for the poor, and pointing me to those tiresome old verses in Jeremiah and Amos and Micah and the gospels (damn, there seem to be a LOT of them) to care for the widowed and the orphaned. I say they should go back to Orphanland or wherever they came from and not leech off of MY tax dollars! And anyone who says different is just trying to guilt-trip me, and it has no place in a church, goddammit!

So I'm putting my dollar back in my pocket and dropping a note in the offering plate instead, too! They'll sing a different tune when they notice that twelve dollars missing from their budget this year.
 

Smartass! Get back in your hole mole!

[GOBUCKS]

Obviously a bouncy lie. Neither DUmmy bob_weaver nor any other DUmmy would ever be inside a Christian church. For them, it would qualify as the "belly of the beast", and they would be terrified.

[Toastedturningtidelegs]

I have never heard a priest endorse any candidate during mass,they do tell you to vote for the candidate who most represents your Christian values. This is why the dummies are upset they don't stand a chance when it's put that way.

[BlueStateSaint]

If it was a Mass, then it was a Catholic church.

Sorry, buddy, the Catholic church is against abortion and Gay marriage. If that offends you, find another church. We let you do that now. We don't even burn you at the stake anymore!   

I know!  What a bummer!

(Then again, burning one of the DUmb****s at the stake would constitute some pretty heavy smog downwind.)

[jinxmchue]

Ol' Bobby is the fireworks guy with a photoshop fetish for Sarah Palin and an open image folder on his website.

He also steals other people's images.

[Airwolf]

If it was a Mass, then it was a Catholic church.

Sorry, buddy, the Catholic church is against abortion and Gay marriage. If that offends you, find another church. We let you do that now. We don't even burn you at the stake anymore!   

Oh yeah the good old days. They should be happy that things change,otherwise alot of the DU membership would have been roasted in BBQ sauce years ago.

[Chris_]

If it was a Mass, then it was a Catholic church.

Sorry, buddy, the Catholic church is against abortion and Gay marriage. If that offends you, find another church. We let you do that now. We don't even burn you at the stake anymore!   

Oh yeah the good old days. They should be happy that things change,otherwise alot of the DU membership would have been roasted in BBQ sauce years ago.

[youtube=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X5McSEU48Y8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X5McSEU48Y8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I miss the good old days!   

[Peter3_1]

I'm awaiting one of these DUfuses to attend a MOSQUE and regisrter such complaints. Yes, they posture and strut with their witty prose and declaire themselves "brave" where there is no consequence, except maybe Mon's scolding.

Where something requires even the barest beginings of courage, they are not to be found.

[JohnnyReb]

And the preacher said, "I see the moonbat is in need of prayer.........again."

[MrsSmith]

still_one  (1000+ posts)     Mon Sep-22-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Interesting, so he did get the message. I wonder if he is aware that
 palin doesn't believe Catholics will be saved
 

For just a minute, I was tempted to go look for that quote.  Then I remembered that the DUmp ASSumes they know how Christians think and doesn't need any weird stuff like quotes or proof or anything.  Knowing that someone is Republican and attends church tells them everything.   

bob_weaver (1000+ posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm just taking my Mom because she's 89 and can't make it there on my own.

On MY own??  Hmmm, so Mom is 89, but still drags junior out of the basement and gets him to church??   

Tigress DEM  (1000+ posts)       Mon Sep-22-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. What did they say?
 Clearly telling people how to vote is a violation of separation of church and state, but there are things the church has had opinions on well before America came into being.

As a citizen, though you have done a great job of showing them how offensive whatever it was they said was.

You stood up for what is important to you without allowing them to badger you about it.

Did you tell your Mom?    Are you kidding?  Mom would have kicked his butt!
 
 ===================


 skepticscott  (1000+ posts)      Mon Sep-22-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
113. Well, not really 
 Churches telling people who to vote for is a violation of their tax-exempt status, but not of the Constitution. Only Congress can violate the separation of church and state as a constitutional matter.

Great exchange!!   

[Chris_]

I have never heard a priest endorse any candidate during mass,they do tell you to vote for the candidate who most represents your Christian values. This is why the dummies are upset they don't stand a chance when it's put that way. :-)

You have never been to Our Lady of the Angels.

[DumbAss Tanker]

The Constitution imposes limits on what the Government can do about involvement with churches, thinking that it instead limits what can or cannot be said in church about government or nearly anything else reflects a total misunderstanding of its nature.