I'm going to go "DU" on you...do you believe in Mediums/Clairvoyants?

[BEG]

Not too long ago I caught a show on Lifetime from a british woman who is a Medium/Clairvoyant.  Her name is Lisa Williams.  I was so intrigued by her that I started recording her show.  Either she is the real deal or everyone on her show is in on it.  Anyway, after my brother died I wrote to her because they said they needed people for an upcoming show.  You have to give them your name and send them a picture.  I never heard back from her.  On her website she has random "messages from beyond" from people who come to her giving her messages for people that are living.  I know a lot of you think I must be crazy but I prayed that my brother would come to her and there would be a message from him on there one day.  I had checked her website a couple of times since but I hadn't checked it in at least the last month.  I had kind of forgotten about it until today.

I was laying down because of my eyes and I started talking to my brother Mark.  I said would you give me a sign already.   Then I got up and went straight to the computer, which I told myself not to do because the computer makes my eyes burn because of the UVeitis.  I went to Lisa Williams website first thing, and like I said, I haven't been to her website in over a month.  Anyway, I went to her messages and saw a message from someone named Mark. It wasn't my Mark, I knew it right away.  I kept on reading and then I saw another Mark.  I read it and got a chill.  This message is from Mark and it was to ME.  I believe that with everything I am that it is from my brother. 

Another weird tid bit, it is dated today.

http://lisawilliamsmedium.squarespace.com/messages-from-beyond/2008/9/16/messages.html#comments

Mark, problem with drugs and showing there was a bad influence around him and there was nothing that could be done. He is happy and can you tell mom I am ok

[Wineslob]

Watch John Edward (WE)..........trust me.

Yes, I have "seen" my deceased BIL once or twice. Really weird.



As far as the message..........awesome. The "other side" has it's ways. 

[Lord Undies]

There are all kinds of things we don't understand, so I sometimes don't know what to think.  I know our Lord told us to put no faith in these people, but did He mean all of them or just the phony ones?  It gets confusing.

I know I spoke with my mother after her death.  It was during sleep, but it wasn't a dream.  She was with her sister (who died before I was born).  She was happy.  Mother told me, "You will just love your aunt".  The way she said it was like I won't have a choice.  I will be there one day and I will love my aunt.  Sometimes, especially now that I am soooo much older, I get excited thinking about it - thinking about what awaits.

My wife got me watching Lisa Williams.  She is pretty remarkable.  I was disappointed in her during the last show I watched.  She was burning sage in a little girl's bedroom.  I told my wife, "That there is moonbat sh*t".

The note from Mark is just WILD....I know you are touched.  Through Mark's spirit and Lisa Williams, it may be our Lord's way of comforting you.   Who knows?  It is all so complicated.  And then it's not.
 

[Miss Mia]

That's pretty wild BEG.  It definitely was a message to you too. 

I put mediums/clairvoyants in the list of "Things it's okay to not understand, God understands them."

[jendf]

I would be wary, BEG. The Bible really emphasizes that those who believe in God should not put their faith in these types of things.

When you wrote Lisa Williams, did you give her a lot of detail about his story and what happened? Did you mention the grief that your whole family is going through?

I'm not trying to discredit what you believe is a true message from Mark. Only you can know for sure. But I would exercise extreme caution with this.

My personal opinion is that the dead don't speak to us. And those who claim they can hear the dead are frauds.

Only God knows each and every one of us, in life and in death. Lean on Him, BEG. He will bring you comfort as your grieve and mourn. Leave Mark to God. He's in the best hands possible now.

You are in my prayers.

[Chris_]

BEG, I love you, but you witnessed cold reading, buttressed by your (perhaps subconscious) desires.

I dream of my long-passed Mom a lot -- and I do think she visits me.  But Heaven and Earth touch only on a personal basis.

There has NEVER been a spirit world contact with the real world that has been subject to a double-blind scientific study.  Nor has a full-body spirit ever been captured on a video camera, despite the fact that there have been million, maybe billions of feet of tape or digital equivalent taken in any and every possible event imaginable.

[Chris_]

That's pretty wild BEG.  It definitely was a message to you too. 

I put mediums/clairvoyants in the list of "Things it's okay to not understand, God understands them."

I put them in the list of things "scammers use and God condemns (not for the spirituality, but for the scam)."

[BEG]

I would be wary, BEG. The Bible really emphasizes that those who believe in God should not put their faith in these types of things.

When you wrote Lisa Williams, did you give her a lot of detail about his story and what happened? Did you mention the grief that your whole family is going through?

I'm not trying to discredit what you believe is a true message from Mark. Only you can know for sure. But I would exercise extreme caution with this.

My personal opinion is that the dead don't speak to us. And those who claim they can hear the dead are frauds.

Only God knows each and every one of us, in life and in death. Lean on Him, BEG. He will bring you comfort as your grieve and mourn. Leave Mark to God. He's in the best hands possible now.

You are in my prayers.

No, I gave my name and a picture (of myself, they asked for it) and that we questioned the death of a relative.  I didn't say it was my brother, give his name or anything about drugs. She wouldn't have known that drugs had anything to do with it or that we questioned if we could have helped him.  I'm sure it is possible for her to find out my brother died but I highly doubt she would have taken the time so that she could just post a message on her website.

I do understand what you are saying Jen but I swear IF she is for real, this was my brother.

[BEG]

There are all kinds of things we don't understand, so I sometimes don't know what to think.  I know our Lord told us to put no faith in these people, but did He mean all of them or just the phony ones?  It gets confusing.

I know I spoke with my mother after her death.  It was during sleep, but it wasn't a dream.  She was with her sister (who died before I was born).  She was happy.  Mother told me, "You will just love your aunt".  The way she said it was like I won't have a choice.  I will be there one day and I will love my aunt.  Sometimes, especially now that I am soooo much older, I get excited thinking about it - thinking about what awaits.

My wife got me watching Lisa Williams.  She is pretty remarkable.  I was disappointed in her during the last show I watched.  She was burning sage in a little girl's bedroom.  I told my wife, "That there is moonbat sh*t".

The note from Mark is just WILD....I know you are touched.  Through Mark's spirit and Lisa Williams, it may be our Lord's way of comforting you.   Who knows?  It is all so complicated.  And then it's not.
 

I saw that episode too.  It disappointed me as well.  Actually I don't know if disappointed is the right word but I didn't like it. 

[DarkHalo]

Well, I have always thought it the worst sort of arrogance to assume we know everything there is to know about our universe. This is the problem I have with religions. I have myself on several occasions seen what most people would call a 'ghost' in the house I live in. But I still am always wary of someone that makes a buck off of this sort of thing.  Maybe thats just the pessimist in me. But this sure sounds like the real deal. I am happy for you BEG. It must be quite a relief. But if this 'psychic' starts asking for money....

[BEG]

Well, I have always thought it the worst sort of arrogance to assume we know everything there is to know about our universe. This is the problem I have with religions. I have myself on several occasions seen what most people would call a 'ghost' in the house I live in. But I still am always wary of someone that makes a buck off of this sort of thing.  Maybe thats just the pessimist in me. But this sure sounds like the real deal. I am happy for you BEG. It must be quite a relief. But if this 'psychic' starts asking for money....

LOL she has her own show.  I highly doubt she would call me up asking for money.   

[terry]

You're not crazy BEG.   I believe in life after death and I believe those that have passed can contact us.    I don't believe that we or anyone here can contact them.    I also believe they reach out to us because they know we need them.  I don't think they particularly reach out to us because they need to.    I think they use whatever means that will work best.   I am very skeptical of mediums that charge money or make a living from their "gift".    I have always felt that when I need Andy, he can get in touch with me, without the help of anyone else.

I don't know if you were still on the old board but the Valentine's Day after Andy died, Robby found this sealed on the ground near his school...



It was just what Robby needed, it exactly the kind of thing Andy would give Robby and the phrase "To a Most Powerful Friend" was perfect.

Andy was my hugger.   My other boys just don't spontaneously hug.   I have had several dreams that are just Andy hugs.   Before these dreams I never had dreams that had such a strong physical sensation.   It's Andy, he knows what I need.

I believe that it was a sign from Mark and I think he sent it in a way that he knew you would understand.   I believe he will send more when you need it.

[Carl]

Regardless BEG of what this was please be careful about taking it any farther.

I don`t wish to cause any hurt but there is every bit as good a chance that if this was a supernatural experience it could be a false one coming not as a way to comfort you but a way to ensnare you.

The last thing in the world I would want to do is to cause any more pain for you so please don`t think I am trying to be callous.

Search the Scriptures with an open heart and find out what God wants you to know and understand of these things.

Let Him be your comfort.

[BEG]

Regardless BEG of what this was please be careful about taking it any farther.

I don`t wish to cause any hurt but there is every bit as good a chance that if this was a supernatural experience it could be a false one coming not as a way to comfort you but a way to ensnare you.

The last thing in the world I would want to do is to cause any more pain for you so please don`t think I am trying to be callous.

Search the Scriptures with an open heart and find out what God wants you to know and understand of these things.

Let Him be your comfort.

I don't intend to "take it any further".  I just found it comforting and freaky at the same time.  I also had a dream about him one night about two weeks after he died.  I wont go into the dream but I woke up with heart burn.  I NEVER have heart burn except for when I was 9 months pregnant.  I told my mom about the dream then happened to mention my heart burn and how weird it was because I never have it.  She said my brother had heart burn all the time.  I found that comforting as well.

[BEG]

You're not crazy BEG.   I believe in life after death and I believe those that have passed can contact us.    I don't believe that we or anyone here can contact them.    I also believe they reach out to us because they know we need them.  I don't think they particularly reach out to us because they need to.    I think they use whatever means that will work best.   I am very skeptical of mediums that charge money or make a living from their "gift".    I have always felt that when I need Andy, he can get in touch with me, without the help of anyone else.

I don't know if you were still on the old board but the Valentine's Day after Andy died, Robby found this sealed on the ground near his school...



It was just what Robby needed, it exactly the kind of thing Andy would give Robby and the phrase "To a Most Powerful Friend" was perfect.

Andy was my hugger.   My other boys just don't spontaneously hug.   I have had several dreams that are just Andy hugs.   Before these dreams I never had dreams that had such a strong physical sensation.   It's Andy, he knows what I need.

I believe that it was a sign from Mark and I think he sent it in a way that he knew you would understand.   I believe he will send more when you need it.

I remember when that happened Terry.  It was so neat and I remember it giving me a chill when you told us about it. 

[Hawkgirl]

I believe there are a lot of scammers and frauds out there.....but, I also believe there may be a few who are truly gifted. Call it a sixth sense? This is either highly coincidental (that you happened to speak to your brother and you found a random message the same day on the site) or he really did respond to you.
I don't believe we can contact the living (directly) when we die..but I do believe their spirit lives on, and if we call upon them, they will find a way to contact us.

I had an "experience" many years ago when my grandmother died.  After that moment..I was certain of a couple of things...1. There is an afterlife and we live on..and 2. They can contact us, in some indirect way, when they want to.

But, just as there is good, there is evil.  One just has to distiniquish which is which.

[jinxmchue]

One of the things James Randi gets right is debunking these mediums and clairvoyants.

[Chris_]

You're not crazy BEG.   I believe in life after death and I believe those that have passed can contact us.    I don't believe that we or anyone here can contact them.    I also believe they reach out to us because they know we need them.  I don't think they particularly reach out to us because they need to.    I think they use whatever means that will work best.   I am very skeptical of mediums that charge money or make a living from their "gift".    I have always felt that when I need Andy, he can get in touch with me, without the help of anyone else.

I don't know if you were still on the old board but the Valentine's Day after Andy died, Robby found this sealed on the ground near his school...



It was just what Robby needed, it exactly the kind of thing Andy would give Robby and the phrase "To a Most Powerful Friend" was perfect.

Andy was my hugger.   My other boys just don't spontaneously hug.   I have had several dreams that are just Andy hugs.   Before these dreams I never had dreams that had such a strong physical sensation.   It's Andy, he knows what I need.

I believe that it was a sign from Mark and I think he sent it in a way that he knew you would understand.   I believe he will send more when you need it.

Andrew is the 10th most popular name for all men -- thus it is 1/10 chance that an "Andy" would pass.  Add to it the broad subjective window and it is almost a certainty that an "Andy" would match the prophesy.

I am glad you found some comfort, but this is still a scam.
 

[Chris_]

I would be wary, BEG. The Bible really emphasizes that those who believe in God should not put their faith in these types of things.

+1.  To answer the original question though BEG, I'm honestly at a loss at how any person who believes whole heartedly in God... can NOT believe in a supernatural realm which clairvoyants might just exist in.  However, if you do believe in the scriptures, we're really told to stay clear of such things...  and personally, I never saw one I felt was possibly genuine.

BEG, I love you, but you witnessed cold reading, buttressed by your (perhaps subconscious) desires.
There has NEVER been a spirit world contact with the real world that has been subject to a double-blind scientific study.  Nor has a full-body spirit ever been captured on a video camera, despite the fact that there have been million, maybe billions of feet of tape or digital equivalent taken in any and every possible event imaginable.

I'd strongly disagree with that... but, won't be able to share why.  So please, ignore that statement at your leisure  :-)

While I've no idea about your personal religious beliefs or lack of beliefs may be.  I often find the point you bring up quite interesting.  As if you believe in the christian God, you inherently also believe in the legion of fallen angels and other Screwtape Letter cohorts.  Now just ponder this... would it serve either group  capable of such feats, to display a recordable supernatural act, that meets a double-blind scientific study?  

While if you don't believe in the christian God, would not the fallen angels be strongly inclined to block any witnessing of the supernatural from you?  As long as you don't acknowledge it, and deny God, they win... that battle.

Shrugs, perhaps it's just a weird though brought about by alcohol... I'm not crazy  :uhsure:

The Screwtape letters were fiction written by C.S. Lewis. I believe in a wonderful God and angels, but I also believe they don't manifest in the RL.  They manifest in our hearts.  My now-passed beloved kitty (of 25 years) had a personal angel.  How do I know?  Because that angel spoke to me in my heart. My departed Mom visits me in my dreams and gives me advice -- she doesn't manifest in 3D to do so.

The absence of proof isn't proof -- it is just, well, absence of proof.

And fodder for the snake oil salesmen like John Edwards.

[Duke Nukum]

I would be wary, BEG. The Bible really emphasizes that those who believe in God should not put their faith in these types of things.

+1.  To answer the original question though BEG, I'm honestly at a loss at how any person who believes whole heartedly in God... can NOT believe in a supernatural realm which clairvoyants might just exist in.  However, if you do believe in the scriptures, we're really told to stay clear of such things...  and personally, I never saw one I felt was possibly genuine.

BEG, I love you, but you witnessed cold reading, buttressed by your (perhaps subconscious) desires.
There has NEVER been a spirit world contact with the real world that has been subject to a double-blind scientific study.  Nor has a full-body spirit ever been captured on a video camera, despite the fact that there have been million, maybe billions of feet of tape or digital equivalent taken in any and every possible event imaginable.

I'd strongly disagree with that... but, won't be able to share why.  So please, ignore that statement at your leisure  

While I've no idea about your personal religious beliefs or lack of beliefs may be.  I often find the point you bring up quite interesting.  As if you believe in the christian God, you inherently also believe in the legion of fallen angels and other Screwtape Letter cohorts.  Now just ponder this... would it serve either group  capable of such feats, to display a recordable supernatural act, that meets a double-blind scientific study?  

While if you don't believe in the christian God, would not the fallen angels be strongly inclined to block any witnessing of the supernatural from you?  As long as you don't acknowledge it, and deny God, they win... that battle.

Shrugs, perhaps it's just a weird though brought about by alcohol... I'm not crazy  

The Screwtape letters were fiction written by C.S. Lewis. I believe in a wonderful God and angels, but I also believe they don't manifest in the RL.  They manifest in our hearts.  My now-passed beloved kitty (of 25 years) had a personal angel.  How do I know?  Because that angel spoke to me in my heart. My departed Mom visits me in my dreams and gives me advice -- she doesn't manifest in 3D to do so.

The absence of proof isn't proof -- it is just, well, absence of proof.

And fodder for the snake oil salesmen like John Edwards.

They don't manifest in your real life.  You can't really speak for the real lives of others.

[terry]

Andrew is the 10th most popular name for all men -- thus it is 1/10 chance that an "Andy" would pass.  Add to it the broad subjective window and it is almost a certainty that an "Andy" would match the prophesy.

I am glad you found some comfort, but this is still a scam.
 

I'm well aware of how common a name Andy is.   This wasn't a scam.  If anything it was a coincidence.   Robby found the valentine on the ground, no one sold it to him or placed it there for him to find.   There is one other boy at the school named Andy.   It is likely that, that little Andy dropped a valentine and Robby found it.   It was a big coincidence.  I believe that my Andy or God (not making an equivalency here, just have different theories in my mind) knew that it would bring Robby comfort and chose that method to bring that comfort to him.

I don't know if BEG's experience was a scam or not.  BEG's a smart woman and I don't think she is likely to spend her life savings to go chasing after contact with her brother.   I suspect her brother knows/knew that as well.   Maybe the message with the name Mark was a coincidence or maybe Mark or God used that way to get a message of comfort to her.

[Chris_]

They don't manifest in your real life.  You can't really speak for the real lives of others.

OK, I put it to you -- where in the hundreds of years of modern science has there been a single metaphysical event that has passed scientific muster?

One.  Just one. 

[Duke Nukum]

They don't manifest in your real life.  You can't really speak for the real lives of others.

OK, I put it to you -- where in the hundreds of years of modern science has there been a single metaphysical event that has passed scientific muster?

One.  Just one. 

Spiritual matters are notoriously anti-laboratory but that doesn't mean people don't experience them.  Science, of course, cannot speak to every situation because it is an exclusionary discipline.  It only looks at certain things and it only looks at those certain things in a certain way.  But that is beside the point as I did not invoke science.

I only made the simple and obvious point that you have no idea what other people experience in their lives but you extrapolate your own experiences and demand everyone comply.

Has God ever been scientifically verified? Even once?  Some people don't experience God in their lives and so they insist that everyone not experience God in their lives.  You've never had a seemingly external encounter with a loved one who passed on so you insist that such things can't possibly happen but no matter how hard you insist that does not make it true.  And it also has nothing to do with science.

Every system of knowledge is a system of exclusion.  And the Universe, by and large, is not an intellectual exercise.  And I don't know every experience that a human is capable of having so when someone tells me of an experience they have had, I listen respectfully and don't try to talk them out of it.

I've never seen a UFO and I don't really believe in them but I know people who have.  I have never seen a ghost and never really want to but I know people who have.  I've never had an out of body experience and yet it seems a very common component of the human experience catalog.  By not telling people they can't experience what they have experienced or what they think they have experienced, I have made many good friends.

Can friendship be verified in a scientific lab?  Is there even one study that proves the scientific existence of friendship?  If not then friendship must not exist.