primitive grows a garden in New York City

[franksolich]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=246x10085

Okay, continuing with my standard practice of not making fun of primitives in the gardening forum on Skins's island--and besides, this is actually a pretty good bonfire, a pleasant one.  I really regret I had to omit the last half of the bonfire, the most recent comments, because of the character limit:

HamdenRice  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-31-08 09:30 AM
Original message

Some thoughts on the economics of hobby gardening harvests...
   
What got me thinking about this was the threads on what's sizzling and what's fizzling, and on some of the crop choice threads. (I lurk in this forum much more than I post.)

After gardening for several years, and getting the soil of my small urban/suburban garden into peak condition, and after having had many successful harvests of certain crops and many unsuccessful harvests, I have been reflecting on the economics of hobby gardening.

For example, I once tried to grow sweet corn. Corn doesn't grow particularly well here in New York City (relatively short season; adjoining properties limit sunlight) and it takes a very large amount of space comparatively. Even more important, during peak corn season, fresh sweet corn is incredibly cheap. It's not as good, of course, as corn plucked right of the stalk and cooked, but it's pretty good. So I have to conclude that the return on corn -- the amount saved by growing it as compared to buying it -- is really poor.

Economically, my guess is that the very most economically efficient crops in my garden are rasberries and blackberries. After these "weeds" establish themselves, the big problem isn't cultivating them; it's preventing them from taking over the entire backyard. They are perennial and take very little work (other than pulling up unwanted canes). Also, berries are very expensive in the supermarket -- a few dollars per pint. That means that during peak production, the original three small bushes purchased at about $20 per bush, are producing several dollars worth of berries every single day -- for years and years. The draw back is that ultimately, you really can't eat that many berries, although I also guess that they are nutritional superstars in terms of vitamins and anti-oxidants.

Tomatoes are always a good investment, especially grown from seed (as I did this year, compared to starter plants, which I used in the past). I guess that's why everyone but everyone grows them. Even though tomatoes are cheaper in the summer, good vine ripened tomatoes are never that cheap. With just a few plants (about 20) I grow more tomatoes than I can eat or give away. Again, that means that from maybe 5 packets of seeds at $1.50 per packet, I'm getting several dollars worth of tomatoes per day.

A surprise economic powerhouse is parsley. My GF and I are somewhat gormands (she grew up in a restaurant), and we use parsley a lot -- a few times per week. A bunch of parsley cost $1 per bunch at the market. Problem is, that it doesn't last very long. You use a few sprigs and the rest wilts or worse turns to green sludge in a few days. That means that we end up spending basically $1 extra per meal to add parsley flavor to a dish -- when you think of it compared to the cost of say the meat, that's quite ridiculous. Six parsley plants grown from seed from one packet produce all the parsley we need, perfectly fresh, always available, super flavorful, until well after the first frost (parsley wilts at frost, but comes back! Only snow seems to finally kill it). Similar economic analysis of basil and sage -- and sage has the advantage of being semi-perennial if you baby it through the winter (only worked a few times).

Lettuce was also a good economic producer. A head in the market is a dollar and change. For a dollar and change for packet of seed, we have gotten fresh lettuce every day for a while, but then it bolted in the hot weather, and I was lazy getting new seed started, but now I have about 10 young plants for the cool fall that should produce all we can eat till frost. Again, it's quite a return.

Cukes surprised me also. Only three plants out of the pack made it from flats to the garden, but those three plants produce more cukes than we can eat. And cukes are relatively expensive in the market. Wish I knew how to make pickles.

Pole string beans are usually great, but they were (I was) very late starting and they haven't begun to produce. I think they pay for themselves, but they might not this year. Next year, I want to add fresh green peas.

Well this is just a lot of rambling, but I wonder whether you also think about the economics of hobby gardening. Are their crops you would just not grow because it's not worth the cost/effort? Someone posted about black beans some time ago, and I was thinking that a bag of black beans from the market probably costs less than a packet of bean seeds -- so why grow them, except for the fun of it if you have the space. I've written off corn, beans, excess tomato plants, and cabbage.

Any thoughts?

franksolich's adopted grandmother has some:

hippywife  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-31-08 01:45 PM
Response to Original message

1. For us it hasn't necessarily been about the economics. It's been about being able to control our own food supply and what goes in it. Organic produce is expensive and usually not too much of it is local, adding to the petroleum load on our plates. So it's really been environmental rather than economical for us, but for sure it is a lot less expensive to grow your own after the initial investment of time and money to get the garden into being.

HamdenRice  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1

5. It isn't primarily about economics for me either
   
It's just that at some point, with a particular crop, I just start to wonder, "why am I doing this"? Particularly with a small garden, I have had to wonder why I was wasting space.

Also, I spent some time as a consultant in developing countries on topics related to agricultural economics, and since then it's hard for me to think about gardening without thinking about what parts of my hobby would be "efficient" if it were being done by a commercial farmer. In other words, the back of the envelope economics has become part of the hobby.

It's definitely mostly about the quality of the food.

hippywife  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #5

11. I've really found that the food I need to not grow are some of the herbs because I can't use them up fast enough before they bolt. I do dry some of them and I froze a bunch of pesto but you can't do either with cilantro, as far as I know. I love cilantro in certain dishes but whether I buy it or grow it, a lot of it goes to waste. It's cheap enough to not be concerned from that aspect, but I always hate to throw away any kind of food.

franksolich takes surplus food and tosses it out in the garden, to rot and decay and make fertilizer.

Eggshells, too.

Easiest garbage disposal one can think of, and environmentally friendly.

pengillian101  Donating Member  (217 posts) Fri Sep-05-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #11

17. Storing Cilantro
   
This was my first attempt at cilantro this year with good results. I haven't grown any herbs for awhile, so I looked up different ways of storing besides drying. Freezing worked well. Some people put herbs in ice cube trays, fill with water and then you can baggie up the cubes of herbs as you like. I used very small lidded containers filled with cilantro and water, then vacuum bagged those larger chunks.

I also have a jar in the fridge with cilantro and extra virgin olive oil. It's been there a month so far and just fine. I'm assuming it will last a long time.

Now if my tomatoes would just ripen, so I could use up that cilantro in salsa, lol! I've had only two ripe ones so far. Lots of them on the vines, but it is at the tail-end of the season here in northern MN.

FedUpWithIt All  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Tue Sep-09-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11

18. I have 15 herbs growing in pots.
   
The ones that do not bolt will be brought inside to overwinter. The rest go straight to compost. I don't feel as if it is a waste when they go into next years soil.

XemaSab  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-31-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message

2. Interesting discussion
   
I agree with you about corn... a lot of work for little return, and something always winds up happening to it. For example, one year I had 90 corn plants, and got 20 ears, but all the ears were full of smut. Hugh bummer.

I think my favorite thing to grow is herbs. A small plant can go a LONG way.

Lettuce kicks ass too. 12 lettuce plants can feed two people INHUMAN amounts of lettuce for MONTHS.

Everything else I've grown, it's more about the fun than saving money.

asdjrocky  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-31-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message

3. My corn hasn't done as well as I would have liked.
   
I'm now in between planting corn, more of it, next summer or just keeping the space for something else.

blue neen  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-31-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message

4. I really just started gardening again this year.
   
It was fun AND economically successful.

The biggest return for us has been the zucchini. Two little plants that were very cheap to buy and very easy to maintain gave us all of the zucchini that we need. It is versatile, cooking-wise.

I agree with you on the cabbage...it's just not worth it.

HamdenRice  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #4

6. So far three zucchini plants have only produced two zucchinis!
   
They got shaded by rampant rasberries and tomatoes. I have hope though because there are suddenly lots of flowers.

blue neen  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #6

7. Yeah, it took a little while for mine to get going, too.
   
Everything was a little late this summer. The tomatoes are just ripe now.

NJCher  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 11:19 AM
Response to Original message

8. add carrots to the nay list and leeks to the yay list
   
Leeks are almost always 2.99 at the store for a bunch but once in a blue moon you can get them for 1.99.

Carrots are inexpensive at the store so I forego them.

HamdenRice  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #8

9. I love leeks and they are expensive. Never grown them. Is it a fall crop?
   
Can I start them now? I'm planting fall bak choi, cilantro, brussels sprouts, lettuce and arugala.

Are leeks also a possible fall crop?

NJCher  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #9

10. yes, but
   
You won't be able to harvest them until spring. They will get a good start yet this fall (I plan on starting mine today or tomorrow) and will really shoot off in March/April.

Leeks are very slow growing, especially if you start them in the fall (declining sunlight).

I've overwintered mine the last two years and harvest them in the spring.

I have covered mine but it's not really necessary.

franksolich's adopted grandmother then talks about cucumbers and pickles, but it's mostly links.

grasswire  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-01-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message

13. I think about this quite seriously, occasionally.
   
Example: my heirloom tomato plants. I have nine of them, at $2.99 each. I bought pots and stakes, too, at about $2 per plant. Heirloom tomatoes at farmers' market are about $3.98 per pound. This means I have to get over a pound from each plant to come near to breaking even. I'm not sure that's going to happen -- the yield isn't that great yet.

OTOH, a volunteer indeterminate cherry tomato plant has taken over a good portion of my yard for two years now, and produces prolifically. Zero cost, big yield.

Beans: planted three varieties of pole beans. Lots of flowers, but no beans yet.

Cukes: the plants had a bad start. So far, two four inch cukes and a lot of little nubbins of lemon cukes showing.

Basil from seed. Not big enough to pick any yet.

It's a little disappointing this year. June was a very bad month weather-wise.

Oh, I forgot the squash. If the weather holds, I'll have some good zucchini and Magda squash.

bhikkhu  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-03-08 02:00 AM
Response to Original message

14. Market value certainly figures into the graden planting
   
And I have to say that fresh salad - lettuce and then cukes and then lettuce again in fall - is the cornerstone of my garden, and my favorite thing. Second is tomatoes. These three together are so much better out of the garden than from a grocery store, reliable, fresh, and abundantly easy to grow.

Next are the things that store well - green beans, onions and potatoes. In that order. I grow onions again because they are so easy and store well, and its just easier than buying them at the store. Potatoes are harder to justify - they are so cheap its hardly worth it to grow them, but I do anyway on "junk" beds, loose leaves and kitchen scrap that I wouldn't grow anything else in. By the time the 'taters are ready, the beds are good soil as well.

I grow cukes for pickling as well, and have big jars of "refrigerator pickles" now. I cook up one batch of brine and half-fill jars in the fridge, then add pickles as they ripen. They are good for a year, or until the next crop. Its also easy to throw in small onions, garlic or carrots or peppers or anything else you want to keep.

I grow melons and corn as luxuries. They are cheap in the stores at harvest, but they taste best fresh from the garden.

Next year I want to add greens for cooking - asian varieties for stir fries and maybe kale or other hardy types.

TheBorealAvenger  Donating Member  (1000+ posts) Thu Sep-04-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message

15. The food you grow is more nutritious (1) because there is no delay in shipment &storage
   
(2) A gardener can have better quality topsoil that has not been "overworked" for many seasons. Certain elements, and even the general fertility of the soil, will decline over time in intensively-farmed soil.

(3) Organic methods produce more nutritious vegetables.

So, there is a *value* in the food you produce that is hard to quantify but it manifests itself in better nutrition and better health.

My garden is also my training ground for me to learn food production to deal with rising food costs and the possibility of a national or global food shortage. Thinking ahead!

[JohnnyReb]

I'm a daydreamer. Early in the morning while drinking coffee, reading the paper and it's quiet, I daydream. I build buildings in the margin of the paper, giant machines, etc., It's fun and that's about as far as it ever goes.

Sooooooo, son pipes up late in summer, says he wants to get his "Gardening" merit badge for Boy Scouts. It's to late this year but I do some daydreaming about it..... I come up with a stupid idea, "No Till" gardening. I needed to test it out so I go buy a pound of pea seeds, $2 worth,  to embarrassed to buy just the few I need. They're supposed to "make" in 6 weeks. We used an old hatchet to chop a trench in the hard packed yard about an inch deep and 20 feet long, wet it and then poke in pea seeds about 2" inches apart. When they came up we packed grass clippings around them to hold the moisture in the soil and to kill the grass around them. That was 6 weeks ago yesterday. As of yesterday, I have the prettiest row of peas you ever saw...right in the middle of the yard...

Next spring I think we'll plant an experimental 20'x20' "Extremely Intensive No Till Garden" and keep records just for laughs to see what happens. If it works out, heck, anybody with a yard, $20 to $30 and a hatchet could have a garden.

If my dear departed mother could see this, she'd probably slap me upside the head and say, "Boy! I taught you better that that."..... ....and my Daddy, "What do you mean, you got to weedeat the garden?".....