I wish there were a term.... Columbus Day/Indiigenous Peoples' Day

[Mary Ann]

I'd say it's National Hate Whitey Day,
but at the DUmp, that's any day that ends in "y."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100217239570

Star Member LAS14 (12,548 posts)


I wish there were a term.... Columbus Day/Indiigenous Peoples' Day 

Before I get into the topic at hand, please understand these things:

I know that the history European civilization is rife with injustice and cruelty.

I fervently believe that we should try to find ways to make human societies more just and humane.

I don’t think an individual’s worth is in any way whatsoever tied to the complexity of the culture they live in.

I understand that Asia has it’s own complex story to tell that is different from the west.

But it’s a big world, and complex, and I won’t be talking about any of these things in the post below.

*******

I wish there were politically correct way to show admiration for the achievements of European civilization - the achievements in literature, science, art, music, medicine, architecture, technology etc., etc. I wish that we didn’t try to claim that the analogous achievements of the pre-Columbian Americas were, yes I’ll just say it, equal.

In my mind the achievements of Europe are achievements that all of humanity can claim. It’s a mark of the human race’s progress. And I’m glad that those cultural achievements spread to the Americas. I’m glad Columbus made his adventurous trip and accidentally made a connection between Europe and the Americas.

It’s good to acknowledge that great injustices were done, but it’s not good to twist our brains into trying to believe something that seems just not to be true, trying to believe that there’s nothing “better” about some of the great cultural achievements of “high civilization,” whatever we call it.

malthaussen (15,526 posts)


2. The method of transmission was flawed.

Put in stark terms, did Europe have the right to impose its standards on other peoples, even if we stipulate per arguendo that they were "better?" That verges on the end justifying the means. At worst, it reeks of the White Man's Burden, which seems to have been much more burdensome on the indigenous peoples after all.

It seems there are two schools of thought when it comes to evaluating things, particularly beautiful or great things, against the scale of human life. One would claim that the smallest, most insignificant life is worth all the great art, cathedrals, and social philosophy ever made. The other claims that some things are sufficiently great as to justify a death or two, or two million, or the enslavement of an entire race. These are both extreme positions, granted, but good luck finding a common denominator to which they can be reduced.

Ultimately, it is idle to try to judge whether something that happened in the past is "better" or "worse" than things might have been if something else happened. A counter-factual argument can lead to whatever conclusion one desires, because it is based on a fallacy and thus any conclusion is fallacious. The question we must ask of history is whether we now, at the present time as a policy for the future, want to perpetuate methods that were once used, or maintain systems as they have been, even if we now judge them to be unjust. What happened, happened: do we want it to continue to happen, or do we want to change it? And if we now judge damage was done, do we want to rectify it, and what shape might that rectification assume?

To celebrate the achievements of the Europeans (and we'll include Americans with Europeans for the nonce), has an unfortunate and unintended consequence of encouraging at least some people to believe that these achievements justify the spreading of that culture among "lesser" peoples, whether they like it or not. This leads to complexities probably not envisioned by the one who simply stands humbly before the achievements of giants. Any number of wars have resulted from such thinking (indeed, it is one of the root causes of the war now raging in Ukraine, which is a consequence of Russian chauvinism and pan-Asian mysticism).

What to do, one wonders, about an accomplishment that, while great, also caused great misery and still causes resentment today? It would seem to be futile to weigh that accomplishment in the balance of our own judgement of what is great. If it still creates resentment after all this time, then perhaps it is something we should not overtly celebrate, especially in the presence of those whose ancestors may have received injury because of it.

-- Mal

Star Member quaint (1,184 posts)

4. Horrid.

Star Member Javaman (60,055 posts)

6. most "achievements" in history are accomplished via the blood and death of the poor and unfortunate

trying to separate the two is like trying to unscramble an egg.

you can be "proud" of one thing but you must understand that everything comes at a cost...mostly human lives

[SVPete]

Credit where credit is due, there's some attempts at serious grappling with universal values and how people applied those values within their cultural-personal understanding. Then there's this intellectually lazy Proglodyte:

Star Member Javaman (60,055 posts)

6. most "achievements" in history are accomplished via the blood and death of the poor and unfortunate

trying to separate the two is like trying to unscramble an egg.

you can be "proud" of one thing but you must understand that everything comes at a cost...mostly human lives

(S)He fancies himself/herself a god, capable of judging everyone, himself/herself excluded of course.

[freedumb2003b]

Put in stark terms, did Europe have the right to impose its standards on other peoples, even if we stipulate per arguendo that they were "better?" That verges on the end justifying the means. At worst, it reeks of the White Man's Burden, which seems to have been much more burdensome on the indigenous peoples after all.

Says the guy posting using technology developed by white people in a building no doubt built using white techniques (unless he/she/it is sending from a mud hut somewhere). If not for medical techniques developed by white people he/she/it would probably not have made it out of infancy and illnesses such as pneumonia,  influenza - heck even simple infected appendix would have killed it by now.

And if we are celebrating indigenous people then by God I want my Celtic ancestors included!  Many/most of the celebrated "indigenous people" are not indigenous of you go back in history far enough.

[USA4ME]

LAS14

I know that the history European civilization is rife with injustice and cruelty.

You might want to read up on the practices and lifestyle of Indigenous People.

.

[SVPete]

Star Member LAS14 (12,548 posts)
...
I know that the history European civilization is rife with injustice and cruelty.

I fervently believe that we should try to find ways to make human societies more just and humane.

I don’t think an individual’s worth is in any way whatsoever tied to the complexity of the culture they live in.

I understand that Asia has it’s own complex story to tell that is different from the west.

There is no historic region whose cultures lacked cruelty and brutality, with some/much of it arising from interactions with other cultures and regions. Don't like the "injustice and cruelty" in "European civilization"? Don't ignore:

* West Asian and North African cruelty and brutality in conquering and being driven out of Europe;

* Sub-Saharan tribalism in which people groups conquered, slaughtered, and enslaved (including selling slaves to Muslim Asiatics and to Europeans) neighboring people groups;

* Northeast Asian Mongols conquering, briefly, much of Asia and Europe;

* Brutal Muslim conquests of northern Africa, western Asia, and what is now modern Pakistan and India;

* Central and South American people groups who practiced bloody human sacrifice on massive scales, sometimes of their own adults and children, sometimes of captured warriors of other people groups, sometimes of human tribute from conquered people groups;

* North American tribes who for centuries had been at war with each other on and off over territory, sometimes displacing entire tribes;

* Ahhhhhh, China ... from 1276 AD -1912 AD, only the Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644 (with some regional hold-outs till 1662) was Han Chinese. The first part of that time period was the Mongol Yuan Dynasty, and after the Ming Dynasty was the Manchu Qing Dynasty. Need I say that these non-Han dynasties came to and fell out of power less than peacefully? The Opium Wars and the resulting unjust peace treaties are deservedly infamous, but how many have heard of the First Sino-Japanese War, in 1897? And how Japan used that and the Russo-Japanese war to make industrialized Manchuria a puppet state?

* They aren't humans, but do Antarctic penguins even get along with each other?

[Old n Grumpy]

I wish there were politically correct way to show admiration for the achievements of European civilization

There is stop being WOKE and admit all the things Europeans brought into the world.

Stuff your PC

[DUmpDiver]

You might want to read up on the practices and lifestyle of Indigenous People.

.

They were "mostly peaceful" scalpings.

[RuralNc]

Baggies (380 posts)

7. History shows this to be true

And it's this:

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medo-Persians, the Greeks, the Romans.... doesn't matter. They were the stronger, they conquered the land, they brought their customs and ways with them. Had the Native Americans done to Europe what Europe did to them, the same principle stands.

And it won't change.

If China, let's say, invades the USA and conquers it, then it's theirs. Simple as that.

And no, that doesn't mean "might makes right". It's simply a historical fact and there's no reason to believe it will change.

Now you can have people moan, cry, stomp their feet, call the conquerors evil and all sorts of other immature non-sense, but it doesn't mean a thing now or in the long run.

The land belongs to whoever can conquer and defend it.

The achievements that result are what they are.

Im thinking some noobie here is trying to get the ban-hammer. 

[SVPete]

Im thinking some noobie here is trying to get the ban-hammer. 

Quoting another Baggies post, https://conservativecave.com/cave/index.php?topic=130560.msg1519519#msg1519519 . The dude(tte) is definitely mashing some DUmmie buttons, .