Author Topic: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes  (Read 1566 times)

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Offline FunkyZero

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https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

I keep seeing this topic fly around over at the DUmp.
The California commies really do seem to believe they have the right to take whatever they want or need.

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Wed Aug 17, 2022, 09:59 AM
sarisataka

0. Fixing the Southwest's water problem or "Drain baby drain"
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Everyone is aware of the severe drought in many western states and the painful restrictions they are facing. Some folks have noticed that just up the road a ways are these things call the Great Lakes that have a lot of water.

Now we have the small issue of getting the water from there to here. Also some pesky laws and treaties, since we share most of these lakes with Canada, are in the way but money solves everything. Let's do some back of the envelope math to see what it will take.

Per USGS California used 38 billion gallons of water in 2010. Per day. A barrel is 42 gallons so for ease of calculations let's say we want to ship 1 billion barrels of water west each day. The states in need can split that up and fulfill their needs with local supply.

Infrastructure- the Alaska pipeline is about 800 miles long and can transport 2 million barrels per day. The distance from Chicago to LA is about 2000 miles. So we will need the equivalent of 500 Alaskan pipelines at 2.5 time the length. It cost $11bn in 1974, so say we find a contractor who will give us the same rates as 40 years ago-
500×2 5×11bn=$13.75 trillion. Um, let's amortize that over 100 years at 0% interest. That is $137.5bn per year, that's better.

Shipping- oil cost 50-75 cents to ship a barrel 1000mi. Since water is denser than oil we will use the higher rate.
2k mi×1bn barrels× 75=$1.5bn daily

Cost of resource- this will be the trickiest. The receiving states will say free since it is a "national resource" but it is a resource states are giving up. Plus Canada has an interest so will want something. We can be generous and say $.05 per gallon or $2.10 per barrel, $2 1bn daily for that water.

So pipeline cost $137.5bn /yr
Shipping $1.5bn×365= $547bn/yr
Water $2.1bn×365= $1,333.5bn/yr
Total cost $2.018 trillion per year to solve this problem.

Of course we should consider human nature. Will this cost make people learn to conserve resources and build/live with sustainable parameters? Or will the renewed availability of resources spur growth and use so we would eventually need to ship more than a billion barrels of water per day?

This DUmpass has sat around for God knows how long, mashing out lefty math to make this "work" for them.
Seems to me that since they've already drained nearly every river and lake on their end of the country, sane people aren't going to be all that willing to entertain this foolishness.



Offline 67 Rover

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2022, 10:16:06 AM »
https://democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

I keep seeing this topic fly around over at the DUmp.
The California commies really do seem to believe they have the right to take whatever they want or need.

This DUmpass has sat around for God knows how long, mashing out lefty math to make this "work" for them.
Seems to me that since they've already drained nearly every river and lake on their end of the country, sane people aren't going to be all that willing to entertain this foolishness.

Yea I'm sure the environmentalist leftist would go along with that plan.  ::) 

Given that California just declared that bees are fish maybe they can get around that by declaring water as oxygen.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/04/california-court-rules-bees-are-now-fish/

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Offline SVPete

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 10:18:15 AM »
 :rotf: Well, this idea should go over well with Progs' sacred Enviros! :rotf:
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Offline CollectivismMustDie

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2022, 10:54:03 AM »
I'll just bet the surrounding states and the citizens living in them will be like "Sure, come take our water".

Not.
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Offline FiddyBeowulf

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2022, 12:10:15 PM »
California is right next to a ****ing ocean.   :banghead:  How about building a bunch a desalination plants and sell some water to their neighbors?
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Offline RuralNc

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2022, 12:15:48 PM »
California is right next to a ****ing ocean.   :banghead:  How about building a bunch a desalination plants and sell some water to their neighbors?

Im pretty sure those already exist, but they are not allowed to use them. The fishies might get hurt. Perhaps SVPete can chime in on this?

Online DefiantSix

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2022, 12:26:39 PM »
In the same vein of insanity, there was a news article around here just last week that the Salt Lake City council is conducting a feasability study to determine whether the drought-induced shrinkage of the Great Salt Lake should be mitigated by trucking a [metric ass-ton] of sea water up from the Pacific Ocean.

 :devious: :confused: :shrug:

I'm sure the Hollyweird limosine environmentalists would be all for it, as it would offset the rising sea levels threatenig to drown us all...

Edited to add: These are the same pea wits that feel the need for the heavy hand of the gub'mint to crawl over, under, around and thru my boat, looking for any evidence of zebra muscles...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 12:35:56 PM by DefiantSix »
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Offline FunkyZero

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2022, 01:22:33 PM »
Hers's another one, they are going at each others throats.

https://democraticunderground.com/100217052576

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Response to a kennedy (Reply #4)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 07:02 PM
NickB79 (17,178 posts)

10. It would be blown up or shot full of holes
Rightwing extremists in Michigan, or leftwing radical environmentalists, take your pick.

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Response to NickB79 (Reply #10)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 08:39 PM
Star Member brush (43,238 posts)

42. Nah, people on the left are pro-environment. If the...
western half of the nation is starving for water they'd be in favor of it.
Bothsiderism on DU? Are you new here?


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Response to VGNonly (Reply #92)Wed Aug 17, 2022, 01:48 AM
Star Member brush (43,238 posts)

97. Kind of a silly question. Engineers are problem solvers.
Hoover Damn was thought impossible. There's the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges, the Hubble and Webb space telescopes.
There are couple of engineers on this thread who have said it can be done. Very expensive, but so is climate change and Earth dying of thirst if American states with an abundance of water don't share it with other American states.
So many on this thread sound like republican obstructionists and climate deniers.

DUmmie brush REALLY wants that water damnit, it wants that water bad enough to commit sin and call his fellow DUmpasses really dirty names.


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Response to paleotn (Reply #13)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 08:44 PM
Star Member multigraincracker (28,060 posts)

43. We could give them a discount on
Flint River water.
The Tao that can be told is not t

hmmm...  I think this DUmmie might be on to something brilliant.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #55)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 09:14 PM
Star Member A HERETIC I AM (22,973 posts)

66. Declarations, compacts, decrees, agreements, treaties.....

have ALL been changed in the past.

I read your statement;

"Never...it can't be done."

As a declarative statement. That is obviously and clearly not true. It can be done, and if there is enough political and financial desire, it WILL be done, at some point.


I would propose another way of looking at the long term water problems for the west, and that isn't only to divert water from the Great Lakes or the Big Muddy, but to set up a system of catchment basins and reservoirs to capture floodwaters, like what has been happening in Kentucky, and send that water to where ever it is needed.

Now I realize this entire conversation (and this thread is about the 5th one in the last 4 weeks I've seen on this same subject) proposes at the very least, a public works project on a MASSIVE scale. But we have undertaken massive projects in the past. We used to do great things in this country that improved the lives of its citizens.

However, when it comes to the question of some 80 million Americans having enough water to survive on, it seems now we are populated by a bunch of people who just want to say "**** em'" to that shitload of their fellow citizens.

NOW this one wants to be one country, and those MAGA states should do it for the common good and all be "fellow citizens".
Yea, ram it up your LGBLT hole, jackass

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #66)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 09:51 PM
Star Member Demsrule86 (62,025 posts)

73. No, we prevent that and will...I guess they should have figured out a way to fix their issue.
They will not get our water period...

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #73)Tue Aug 16, 2022, 10:03 PM
Star Member A HERETIC I AM (22,973 posts)
77. Thanks for proving my point.

All you primitives can go off and die in a fire...  with no water to put it out.

Offline Karin

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2022, 01:46:35 PM »
NO!  You can't have my Great Lakes water!  Desalinate your own damn ocean.  Better yet, drink it salty.  Who the hell do you think you are? 

Offline CollectivismMustDie

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2022, 02:28:17 PM »
Quote
However, when it comes to the question of some 80 million Americans having enough water to survive on, it seems now we are populated by a bunch of people who just want to say "**** em'" to that shitload of their fellow citizens.

Oh, that's ****ing rich.



Dear lurking DUmbasses,

You democrats and leftists have done nothing but say "**** em" to to their fellow citizens and the President they voted for, for the better part of the last 8 years.

You haven't a leg to stand on, and you deserve everything you get with interest.



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Offline Ralph Wiggum

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2022, 06:11:32 PM »
This is a fun piece of history:

When San Diego Hired a Rainmaker a Century Ago, It Poured
After Charles Hatfield began his work to wring water from the skies, San Diego experienced its wettest period in recorded history.

A century ago, in 1915, as today, San Diego thirsted for water. Dangerously low reservoir levels threatened the region’s potential to grow. Promoters of the city’s Panama-California Exposition, entering its second year, worried about the drought’s impact on fair attendance. A civic organization, the San Diego Wide Awake Improvement Club, demanded action.

Onto the arid stage—and into San Diego’s city council chamber on December 13, 1915—stepped a potential savior. A dapper, 40-year-old sewing machine salesman named Charles Mallory Hatfield vowed to make it rain. As Barbara Tuthill details in “Hatfield the Rainmaker,” the self-professed “moisture accelerator” told the councilors that he could have the Morena Reservoir—only one-third full at the time—overflowing within a year for a fee of $10,000, to be paid only if he succeeded.

Hatfield’s path to San Diego started more than a decade earlier in nearby Bonsall. There, on his father’s ranch, Hatfield conducted his first rainmaking experiments from the top of a windmill tower.

By 1904, he was able to convince some of California’s water-starved ranchers and farmers that he could milk the skies by releasing a secret 23-chemical cocktail into the air from tall wooden towers perched on stilts. “I do not make rain,” Hatfield said. “That would be an absurd claim. I simply attract clouds, and they do the rest.”

In December of 1904, he guaranteed Los Angeles business leaders that he could coax 18 inches of rain to fall over the ensuing five months in return for $1,000. When the target was eclipsed, the rainmaker became a star. “Hatfield immediately became the darling of excitement-hungry newspapers and popular magazines,” wrote scholar Clark C. Spence.

San Diego’s desperate city council was willing to give Hatfield the job, particularly because it would only have to pay out in the event that a deluge struck the city. “It’s heads, the city wins; tails, Hatfield loses,” said Councilman Walter Moore after his fellow members verbally agreed to hire the rainmaker. Only Councilman Herbert Fay objected to the deal, calling it “rank foolishness.”

Even though he still lacked a signed contract as San Diego rang in the new year of 1916, Hatfield set off deep into the woods 60 miles east of the city and began construction of a 20-foot tower near the banks of the Morena Reservoir. He poured his rainmaking brew into shallow iron pans resting on a platform at the top of the wooden structure. Curiosity-seekers reported that Hatfield set the fluids on fire and let the smoke drift skyward. One witness noted that the noxious chemicals smelled as if “a Limburger cheese factory has broken loose.”

When a light sprinkle christened the New Year, a newspaper headline cheered, “Rainmaker Hatfield Induces Clouds to Open.” The rain grew steadier over the next couple of weeks. And then on January 15, a biblical rain started to descend from the heavens. As much as 17 inches of rain fell in the mountains outside San Diego over the ensuing five days as rejoicing quickly morphed into horror. The San Diego River leaped over its banks and ran a mile wide. Landslides oozed down saturated mountains. Floodwaters washed away nearly everything in the vicinity, including homes, roads, railroad tracks, telephone lines, and the entire community of Little Landers.

Indeed, the drenching rains quickly returned after a brief respite—with deadly consequences. On January 27, the mighty stone dam at the Lower Otay Reservoir gave way, sending a 40-foot wall of water thundering to the coastline. More than a dozen people died in the torrent that swept away all trees, livestock, and houses in its path.

By the time the epic rain stopped in San Diego County, nearly 30 inches had fallen in a month, making January 1916 the wettest period in the region’s recorded history. The county coroner estimated that 50 people had died in what residents began to call “Hatfield’s Flood.” With communication and transportation lines severed, naval ships were required to ferry people and supplies in and out of San Diego. As promised by Hatfield, water lapped to the top of Morena Reservoir, yet no one was particularly happy about it.

Believing he had upheld his end of the bargain, the rainmaker walked the 60 flood-stricken miles back to San Diego to collect his money. With city officials flooded with not only rain but also lawsuits seeking compensation for the resulting damage, city attorney Terence Cosgrove refused to pay Hatfield—that would make San Diego liable for the deluge in the eyes of the courts. Cosgrove denied payment on the basis that a contract was never inked and that Hatfield could not furnish proof that the rain was of his own doing and not an act of God. The attorney did say he would be willing to pay the $10,000 if Hatfield took responsibility for the damages, but the rainmaker refused and sued the city. The litigation dragged on for two decades before it was finally dismissed in 1938. Hatfield never received a dime from the city.

San Diego didn’t want to pay Hatfield, but others surely did. Over the next decade, he received offers from as far away as Cuba and Honduras, where he was hired to put out jungle fires to protect the country’s banana crop. In 1921, he signed the biggest contract of his career—in excess of $25,000—to bring five inches of rain to Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada. The Great Depression, however, decimated his business. Spending dried up, and newly constructed dams improved civil water supplies. Not even the Dust Bowl could revive his rainmaking career.

https://daily.jstor.org/charles-hatfield-rainmaker/
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Offline landofconfusion80

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Re: West Coast primitives conspiring to steal water from Great Lakes
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2022, 07:34:25 PM »
There was some satire article about this in time magazine decades ago. The teacher was showing us that you can't believe everything you read
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20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)