seems to me an attack on a nuke plant is an attack on nato members. mopinko

[CC27]

mopinko (61,995 posts)


seems to me an attack on a nuke plant is an attack on nato members.

if that plant had gone sour, nato countries are poisoned.
seems like a plausible predicate for a no fly zone.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216438354

DUmmies are itching for war.

[SVPete]

Has mopsie looked at a map? Or is she overcome with chicken-manure fumes?

[fatboy]

Is Big Mo still pissing off the neighborhood with her urban dump farm?

[SVPete]

Is Big Mo still pissing off the neighborhood with her urban dump farm?

I assume so, unless some of her neighbors have developed a taste for free-urban-range chicken and shopping at midnight.

[USA4ME]

mopinko needs to call up the Ukrainian embassy and volunteer to go fight.

If she doesn’t, she should shut up.

.

[miskie]

That is all

[jukin]

Where were, many of the same DUmbass DUchebags in 2003 and the invasion of Iraq?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Where were, many of the same DUmbass DUchebags in 2003 and the invasion of Iraq?

Hugging the Ditch Bitch Cindy Sheehan in Texas outside President George W. Bush's ranch in Crawford.

[dandi]

Should someone tell the DUmmies that anyone volunteering to join the fray in Ukraine will likely be trained by the Azov Battalion, a Neo-Nazi paramilitary group operating under the auspices of the Ukrainian National Guard, responsible for the slaughter of thousands of civilians in the Donbass? They even keep Nazi insignia on their uniforms.

How fitting it would be to have liberals trained by Nazis.

[67 Rover]

Should someone tell the DUmmies that anyone volunteering to join the fray in Ukraine will likely be trained by the Azov Battalion, a Neo-Nazi paramilitary group operating under the auspices of the Ukrainian National Guard, responsible for the slaughter of thousands of civilians in the Donbass? They even keep Nazi insignia on their uniforms.

How fitting it would be to have liberals trained by Nazis.

Yea well at least they are not repukes. 

[Zathras]

Should someone tell the DUmmies that anyone volunteering to join the fray in Ukraine will likely be trained by the Azov Battalion, a Neo-Nazi paramilitary group operating under the auspices of the Ukrainian National Guard, responsible for the slaughter of thousands of civilians in the Donbass? They even keep Nazi insignia on their uniforms.

How fitting it would be to have liberals trained by Nazis.

It'd be birds of a feather flocking together.

[SVPete]

If those Ukrainian Nationalists are as thuggish as claimed - it's a Russian propaganda vs. Ukrainian propaganda situation, IMO - as with Chechens, in the context of what Stalin did to them, I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Pro-Russia insurgents. Stalin's Five Year Plan, Collectivization, De-Kulakization, and the culminating Holodomor killed directly or starved millions of Ukrainians. That was a generation or two ago, but much bitterness remains, and Russia and Russians are little changed and love them some Holodomor Denial.

[jukin]

and Russia and Russians are little changed and love them some Holodomor Denial.

So do the DUchebags. They still love Stalin.

[SVPete]

So do the DUchebags. They still love Stalin.

I've backed-and-forthed some with a Russian on another discussion site. He actually claimed that the 20s and 30s were a time of worldwide famine, and those dirty Ukrainians have hijacked it for themselves. There is a little truth in his claim wrt Russia. Stalin's Collectivization and De-Kulakization (killing or exiling to uninhabited areas) coincided with a drought, but Stalin had massively increased its grain exports to get hard currency to buy industrial and agricultural machinery (for the Five Year Plan), AND 5 times as many Ukrainians starved to death as in all the rest of Russia. I also pointed out to the Russian shill/troll that in much of the world, the 1920s were a time of recovery from WW1 and of prosperity, and while the 1930s Great Depression was a bad economic time, it was not a time of mass starvation.

Like a "good" DUpipo would do, he ignored facts he didn't want to hear.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

What if the wind blew east?

[SVPete]

A very decent 26+ minute video about the Holodomor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1JI9_WNr1Q . I haven't yet read the book they recommend, Red Famine, but have read Robert Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow.

[Ptarmigan]

If those Ukrainian Nationalists are as thuggish as claimed - it's a Russian propaganda vs. Ukrainian propaganda situation, IMO - as with Chechens, in the context of what Stalin did to them, I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for Pro-Russia insurgents. Stalin's Five Year Plan, Collectivization, De-Kulakization, and the culminating Holodomor killed directly or starved millions of Ukrainians. That was a generation or two ago, but much bitterness remains, and Russia and Russians are little changed and love them some Holodomor Denial.

I read about Holdomor. At least 7 million people died. Joseph Stalin took all the crops as they were collectivizing. Kazakhstan also had a famine that claimed millions of lives. Ukraine was hit hard by Stalin.

Collectivization and the Holodomor
https://jsis.washington.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/USSR_COLLECTIVIZATION_HOLODOMOR.pdf

The Soviet Union has history of famine.
https://ourworldindata.org/famines

[SVPete]

Stalin's purges and famine are close to home for me. My grandparents were Volga Germans who recognized in the mid 00s how things were heading and came to the US. Their oldest was born in Russia and the rest of their children in the US. They knew they would be Socialists' targets because they were land owners, who employed people, and were ethnic Germans ... living in the Ukraine. Some of my great uncles were serving in the Russian army, and stayed in Russia. They had duties other than the front in WW1, and survived the turmoil of the two 1917 revolutions. BUt they stopped replying to mail in the late 20s whether they were shot, sent to the Gulags, or starved in the Holodomor, whether they were purged as "kulaks", "formers", or as ethnic Germans (or just died of starvation), those things my grandparents never learned about their brothers.

Though these great uncles are but a vague family story for me - they were gone long before I was born and I was too young and clueless to have the sense to ask my one yet living grandparent for more details about them - the horrors of Gulag Archipelago and Harvest of Sorrow have a family aspect for me.

The estimated numbers for the Holodomor range from 2.5 to 10 million. Like the Gulags, the Soviets probably didn't keep records, so I'll go with 5-10 million as an estimate, and if someone wants to quibble and minimize the number, I'll just ask them to produce the records underlying their minimization. The estimate I've seen for deaths in those years in the rest of the USSR is 800 thousand, about 1/5 as many in the Ukraine alone.

Stalin and his successors saw collectivization as a means to gain efficiency and productivity from the economies of scale. What they refused to see was that by those working on the kolkhozes having no ownership of the land and its produce, they had nothing to motivate them to be efficient and productive. As a consequence, they were not productive and didn't take great care of the motorized equipment they didn't own. Killing off the "kulaks" - the most productive, most energetic, and smartest - didn't help productivity, either.

[Ptarmigan]

Stalin's purges and famine are close to home for me. My grandparents were Volga Germans who recognized in the mid 00s how things were heading and came to the US. Their oldest was born in Russia and the rest of their children in the US. They knew they would be Socialists' targets because they were land owners, who employed people, and were ethnic Germans ... living in the Ukraine. Some of my great uncles were serving in the Russian army, and stayed in Russia. They had duties other than the front in WW1, and survived the turmoil of the two 1917 revolutions. BUt they stopped replying to mail in the late 20s whether they were shot, sent to the Gulags, or starved in the Holodomor, whether they were purged as "kulaks", "formers", or as ethnic Germans (or just died of starvation), those things my grandparents never learned about their brothers.

Though these great uncles are but a vague family story for me - they were gone long before I was born and I was too young and clueless to have the sense to ask my one yet living grandparent for more details about them - the horrors of Gulag Archipelago and Harvest of Sorrow have a family aspect for me.

The estimated numbers for the Holodomor range from 2.5 to 10 million. Like the Gulags, the Soviets probably didn't keep records, so I'll go with 5-10 million as an estimate, and if someone wants to quibble and minimize the number, I'll just ask them to produce the records underlying their minimization. The estimate I've seen for deaths in those years in the rest of the USSR is 800 thousand, about 1/5 as many in the Ukraine alone.

Stalin and his successors saw collectivization as a means to gain efficiency and productivity from the economies of scale. What they refused to see was that by those working on the kolkhozes having no ownership of the land and its produce, they had nothing to motivate them to be efficient and productive. As a consequence, they were not productive and didn't take great care of the motorized equipment they didn't own. Killing off the "kulaks" - the most productive, most energetic, and smartest - didn't help productivity, either.

When I first read about Holodomor, I was appalled. I am surprised it does not get much attention. So many people died.

Joseph Stalin is a monster. Just like Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Adolf Hitler, and Saddam Hussein. I read when Stalin ran Soviet Union, tens of millions of people were killed.

[SVPete]

Covering up and/or minimizing Marxist Socialists' atrocities is a tradition among media people that does back to when Lenin used the Solovetsky Islands for his proto-Gulag. Escapees' stories were ignored or dismissed. Walter Duranty and the NYT got a Pulitzer for his cover-ups, the Holodomor being among them.

One of the ironies incomprehensible unless one recalls Libs' sympathy for Marxism and Communism is that non-Marxist socialist Hitler is the ultimate symbol of monstrosity when he was a piker compared to Stalin, in numbers and duration, and Stalin was a piker compared to Mao. Hitler was a monster, but third worst behind Stalin and Mao.