DU ideas on free speech and really stupid ways to eliminate it

[BamaMoose]

It's already been beaten to death, but DU is still all upset that Canadians dared to protest COVID mandates.  The OP is about the police coming in to clear the protestors away from the Ambassador Bridge, but some of the replies are absolutely unhinged:

BumRushDaShow (92,554 posts)

Police prepare to face truckers on Ontario bridge.

Source: New York Times

Canadian police moved in Saturday morning to clear protesters at a vital bridge in Windsor Ontario connecting Canada and the United States. As the authorities began what appeared to be an operation to clear the crossing, on the other side of the Atlantic, in Paris, the police fired tear gas at demonstrators blocking traffic on the Champs-lyses at a copycat protest. The Windsor Police wrote on Twitter Saturday morning that "The Windsor Police & its policing partners have commenced enforcement at and near the Ambassador Bridge." It added: "We urge all demonstrators to act lawfully & peacefully."

Police officers were standing in a line not far from the protesters on Saturday morning. Protesters were seen dismantling the tent where they keep food and supplies. Some of the protesters blared their horns. Automakers have been particularly affected by the partial shutdown of the Ambassador Bridge, which normally carries $300 million worth of goods a day, about a third of which are related to the auto industry. The blockades have left carmakers short of crucial parts, forcing companies to shut down some plants from Ontario to Alabama on Friday. The court order calling for protesters to disband or face stiff fines or prison went into effect on Friday at 7 p.m, and the numbers of protesters had since thinned.

But on Saturday morning, dozens of protesters, some dressed in fluorescent construction garb, had still refused to leave, and were milling around at an intersection before the bridge, drinking coffee and holding up Canadian flags. Other protesters remained in their pickup trucks, their engines idling, to stay warm. As Canada enters the third weekend of a crisis that has brought thousands of protesters into the streets of its capital and disrupted international supply chains, officials are turning to harsher measures to try to restore order.

The prime minister and the premier of Ontario both warned on Friday that the demonstrators would face up to 100,000 dollars in fines and a year in prison if they did not disperse voluntarily. In addition to taking over blocks of downtown Ottawa, protesters -- many of them truck drivers angry about vaccination requirements to enter Canada from the United States -- have blockaded several border crossings, including the Ambassador Bridge, which connects Windsor, Ontario, to Detroit and carries a third of U.S.-Canada trade.

<Snip>

So the Canadian government responded to a bunch of protestors with military vehicles, cops in riot gear and snipers targeting the protestors.  In addition, they instituted new laws to excessively punish any protestors and they criminalized providing the protestors financial support.  All in the name of suppressing speech the government doesn't like.  Surely the DUmp will have a problem with such Draconian measures, right?

The Grand Illuminist (51 posts)

1. Very dangerous work ahead.

Trust no trucker.

After the BLM riots did this DUmmy have the same opinion about black people?

gab13by13 (7,595 posts)

2. It's not a trucker protest.

It's an anti-democracy protest funded by American oligarchs.

Free speech is anti-democratic?  And, of course, Canadians couldn't have ever thought of this protest idea by themselves.  It's all America's fault.

pandr32 (8,521 posts)

35. Exactly
 
It's not about vaccines, but to usher in unregulated capitalism which would completely ruin our Western society. 

Huh?

SheltieLover (35,195 posts)

6. They put up with this for 3 weeks?

Boggles the mind.

I hope Canadian judges do a much better job of handing out harsh penalties than have our US jydges. 

Thx for posting!   

Wonder if this DUmmy can remember the Occupy Wall Street protests and how they were allowed to exist for months without government interference.

orangecrush (13,475 posts)

31. I love watching

Putin's stooges get their asses whupped! 

Their was no asses whupped, the police said enough and the protestors peacefully dispersed.  Maybe there's a lesson to learned there.

cadoman (751 posts)

37. these Russian patsies are about to get Tiananmen'd

And I'm gonna be laughing every second.

Sorry folks, your freedumbs don't entitle you to block roads or prevent normal order of business. And you certainly don't just get to occupy a city on a whim.

You also can't petition to address grievances when everything the government is doing is to protect you. Maybe you should try thanking your government and supporting her, for a change? 

And as always, shout out to Justin Trudeau. He has done so much to address the systemic racism and hate in his country and apparently there is just a lot more work to do than anyone ever imagined.

Hmmm, the Chinese government's actions in suppressing the protests in Tiananmen Square were condemned by just about everybody.  Thousands of people were killed or injured, thousands more were imprisoned, foreign journalists were expelled so the government could control the news, and sympathizers were purged from the government.  This DUmmy thinks that would just be fine and dandy.

cadoman (751 posts)

38. for this to work, Canada needs to pursue policies to replace the drivers

Fact: we are short on drivers.

Fact: As long as we are short on drivers, the truckers have leverage and render policy to arrest them ineffective.

Thus, by order of operations, the first thing that must be done is to increase number of available drivers. I propose that by executive order, Ford should allow regular license holders and military service members to drive trucks, and facilitate that through one week of rapid training. If there are not enough people to fill in, the immigration backlog should be examined for anyone with valid drivers licenses and they should be brought over immediately.

Imagine all these dumb rednecks being replaced with democracy loving immigrants in the span of a few weeks? We could turn this into a mass, indefinite detention of the most deplorable elements of society if we play our cards right. But until the replacement drivers are in place, nothing like that can happen.

Replacement drivers are critical. 

And, if the Tiananmen Square comment wasn't stupid enough, cadoman tries to come up with an even stupider idea.  One week of training and anyone with a driver's license (including immigrants with licenses from other countries) will be handed the keys to a 18-wheeler.  I know it's only February, but this may be the stupidest DU post of the year.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142868668

[Mary Ann]

That article appeared in the New York Times, the same paper where the snowflake "journalists" were all triggered by an op ed by Tom Cotton, recommending the same measures be taken in response to the Burn Loot Murder insurrectionists. As I recall, the editor had to apologize and eventually resigned or was fired.

[fatboy]

I hold a class B CDL with air brake and tanker endorsement. This is because I'm a volunteer firefighter. To get that I had to take classes, get a learners permit (after taking the written test) and my particular road test lasted 8 hours although I took the test with another student so 4 hours behind the wheel. This after I had spent probably another 4 hours driving with the instructor. This is just for a class B not class A CDL and I had already been through the PA fire academy fire truck class and had years experience driving fire trucks.

A month or so ago I received a nice letter from the PA Dept. of Transportation asking if as a class B holder I was interested in making money by driving a school bus, this due to a shortage of school bus drivers.

Apparently the roughly 360,000 class B CDL licensed drivers in the commonwealth received the same letter. The distance between class B and class A is quite large. I doubt I could make the transition in a week probably a month or more. 15 years ago when I got my CDL the cost was $1500.00 and we had to provide the (fire) truck. Then the cost for a class A was about $4500.00  I'm sure the cost has not gone down.

My fire company was donated two 53' trailers and a tractor to practice heavy rescue. The tractor actually works so we all drive it around the property, we have 18 acres. So based on that I can get the thing moving but in no way do I think I could drive one over the road with a mere week of training.

Of course this is all wishful thinking on the part of the DUmmies. Owner/operators that are participating in the protests are not going to hand over their truck to a newb of all things and the fleet operators and their insurance carriers are not going to either, it is a stupid idea.

Class A CDL involves physical exams and drug testing so not much there for the libs.

[Karin]

They were also A-OK with Paris police firing teargas at protesters, and it getting all in the cafes. 

[DUmpDiver]

cadoman (751 posts)

38. for this to work, Canada needs to pursue policies to replace the drivers

Fact: we are short on drivers.

Fact: As long as we are short on drivers, the truckers have leverage and render policy to arrest them ineffective.

Thus, by order of operations, the first thing that must be done is to increase number of available drivers. I propose that by executive order, Ford should allow regular license holders and military service members to drive trucks, and facilitate that through one week of rapid training. If there are not enough people to fill in, the immigration backlog should be examined for anyone with valid drivers licenses and they should be brought over immediately.

Imagine all these dumb rednecks being replaced with democracy loving immigrants in the span of a few weeks? We could turn this into a mass, indefinite detention of the most deplorable elements of society if we play our cards right. But until the replacement drivers are in place, nothing like that can happen.

Replacement drivers are critical.

It only takes a week to train someone to be a competent truck driver?

I learn something new every day at The DUmp.

[ADsOutburst]

And that is why I say DU is populated by some of the dumbest, lowest-info participants in our politics.

[DLR Pyro]

The Grand Illuminist (51 posts)

1. Very dangerous work ahead.

Trust no trucker.

enjoy your empty shelves at the supermarket

These morons fail to realize this protest is not just about vaccines, but about personal freedom to chose what goes into their body. 

I got the vaccine, I think people should get the vaccine if they want to but I greatly disagree that anyone should be forced to get a vaccine they don't want.  If that makes me an anti-vaxer, I'm fine with it.

[Texacon]

I'm waiting to see how well they all react when these stupid vaccine passport/mandates are all dropped.  It's coming, but I doubt it will be here for the mid-term elections.  It wouldn't surprise me to see them dropped before the election though.

It's been nothing but political from the very beginning.

KC

[SVPete]

Multiple D goobernors have eased off their mandates/restrictions. Had it been data-driven, they would have noticed a month or more ago that the deaths and hospitalizations number didn't justify the restrictions, and backed off then. But D goobernors finally recognize the restrictions' unpopularity and that November is coming, so they are acting now.

[USA4ME]

Proving that DUers are now, and always have been, the lovers of Soviet Union and ChiCom policies and tactics we always knew they were.

.

[DLR Pyro]

Proving that DUers are now, and always have been, the lovers of Soviet Union and ChiCom policies and tactics we always knew they were.

.

which begs the question:  Why are the DUmmies so anti-Putin?

[Zathras]

which begs the question:  Why are the DUmmies so anti-Putin?

Also why are the DUmbasses pro fascists?

[dandi]

Proving that DUers are now, and always have been, the lovers of Soviet Union and ChiCom policies and tactics we always knew they were.

.

I think they're actually jealous of Putin. He wields the authoritarian power they wish they had.

[Ptarmigan]

And that is why I say DU is populated by some of the dumbest, lowest-info participants in our politics.

That is why we call them DUmmies.

[BamaMoose]

I hold a class B CDL with air brake and tanker endorsement. This is because I'm a volunteer firefighter. To get that I had to take classes, get a learners permit (after taking the written test) and my particular road test lasted 8 hours although I took the test with another student so 4 hours behind the wheel. This after I had spent probably another 4 hours driving with the instructor. This is just for a class B not class A CDL and I had already been through the PA fire academy fire truck class and had years experience driving fire trucks.

A month or so ago I received a nice letter from the PA Dept. of Transportation asking if as a class B holder I was interested in making money by driving a school bus, this due to a shortage of school bus drivers.

Apparently the roughly 360,000 class B CDL licensed drivers in the commonwealth received the same letter. The distance between class B and class A is quite large. I doubt I could make the transition in a week probably a month or more. 15 years ago when I got my CDL the cost was $1500.00 and we had to provide the (fire) truck. Then the cost for a class A was about $4500.00  I'm sure the cost has not gone down.

My fire company was donated two 53' trailers and a tractor to practice heavy rescue. The tractor actually works so we all drive it around the property, we have 18 acres. So based on that I can get the thing moving but in no way do I think I could drive one over the road with a mere week of training.

Of course this is all wishful thinking on the part of the DUmmies. Owner/operators that are participating in the protests are not going to hand over their truck to a newb of all things and the fleet operators and their insurance carriers are not going to either, it is a stupid idea.

Class A CDL involves physical exams and drug testing so not much there for the libs.

My Dad has a Class A CDL with every endorsement available (tankers, hazmat, doubles, triples, passenger, etc.).  That coupled with his automobile and motorcycle license means he can legally drive any vehicle allowed on a public highway.  He got his CDL and endorsements back in the sixties when it was a little easier and paid for by his employer, but they all are still valid (he refuses to downgrade his license and keeps passing the physical).  He used to take me and my brothers on trips and taught us how to drive and the intricacies of driving a semi (manual transmissions and no power steering).  When we were teenagers we were allowed to drive in the yard, hook up to trailers, load them, get them weighed and drop them for the drivers. With all the experience I have, observing and actually driving, there is no way I'm qualified to take a truck out on the open road.  These idiots think anyone can just get behind the wheel.  It shows an extreme disdain for skilled labor.  They don't think that blue collar workers like truckers and farmers and tradesmen are worthy.  Until they want their votes.

[SVPete]

My Dad has a Class A CDL with every endorsement available (tankers, hazmat, doubles, triples, passenger, etc.).  That coupled with his automobile and motorcycle license means he can legally drive any vehicle allowed on a public highway.  He got his CDL and endorsements back in the sixties when it was a little easier and paid for by his employer, but they all are still valid (he refuses to downgrade his license and keeps passing the physical).  He used to take me and my brothers on trips and taught us how to drive and the intricacies of driving a semi (manual transmissions and no power steering).  When we were teenagers we were allowed to drive in the yard, hook up to trailers, load them, get them weighed and drop them for the drivers. With all the experience I have, observing and actually driving, there is no way I'm qualified to take a truck out on the open road.  These idiots think anyone can just get behind the wheel.  It shows an extreme disdain for skilled labor.  They don't think that blue collar workers like truckers and farmers and tradesmen are worthy.  Until they want their votes.

  You can rely on DUpipo to neither understand nor respect other people's skills and knowledge.

[FunkyZero]

I hold a class B CDL with air brake and tanker endorsement. This is because I'm a volunteer firefighter. To get that I had to take classes, get a learners permit (after taking the written test) and my particular road test lasted 8 hours although I took the test with another student so 4 hours behind the wheel. This after I had spent probably another 4 hours driving with the instructor. This is just for a class B not class A CDL and I had already been through the PA fire academy fire truck class and had years experience driving fire trucks.

A month or so ago I received a nice letter from the PA Dept. of Transportation asking if as a class B holder I was interested in making money by driving a school bus, this due to a shortage of school bus drivers.

Apparently the roughly 360,000 class B CDL licensed drivers in the commonwealth received the same letter. The distance between class B and class A is quite large. I doubt I could make the transition in a week probably a month or more. 15 years ago when I got my CDL the cost was $1500.00 and we had to provide the (fire) truck. Then the cost for a class A was about $4500.00  I'm sure the cost has not gone down.

My fire company was donated two 53' trailers and a tractor to practice heavy rescue. The tractor actually works so we all drive it around the property, we have 18 acres. So based on that I can get the thing moving but in no way do I think I could drive one over the road with a mere week of training.

Of course this is all wishful thinking on the part of the DUmmies. Owner/operators that are participating in the protests are not going to hand over their truck to a newb of all things and the fleet operators and their insurance carriers are not going to either, it is a stupid idea.

Class A CDL involves physical exams and drug testing so not much there for the libs.

Don't mean to get off topic, but that sounds pretty strict and has me wondering now about the validity of my own experience.
I lived in a small town back in the late 80's and was also a volunteer. Our largest truck was a pump truck that also hauled all the accessory stuff and hoses, somewhat large and I would guess going from long term memory, maybe 25-30ft, dual axle. We did all sorts of training and certification stuff for diving, climbing/repelling, you name it there was probably a certification for it.
My driver training was all done with an on staff certified instructor who was a full-timer in the large truck and sometimes a grass rig. I basically had to do XX hours (I can't remember now exactly) behind the wheel and not run over anything I wasn't supposed to. This included backing up with mirrors in tight spots, etc. That gave me a certification to allow me to drive all the fire dept equip. I did the same sort of program (yet separate) to be certified to drive the ambulances. I never took a CDL test or anything for any of it, I just got cheesy cards in the mail printed on a dot matrix printer.
The area was generally pretty slow, most calls were car accidents or water rescue in the summer due to the lakes around us and the summer tourist invasion. Real building fires were about as rare as unicorn teeth. I only ever participated in 1 over those years.
Now I have to wonder if all that was even adequate in the case something bad had ever happened such as an accident or something. The BMV and DOT weren't even involved in the cert process that I can remember.

[BamaMoose]

Don't mean to get off topic, but that sounds pretty strict and has me wondering now about the validity of my own experience.
I lived in a small town back in the late 80's and was also a volunteer. Our largest truck was a pump truck that also hauled all the accessory stuff and hoses, somewhat large and I would guess going from long term memory, maybe 25-30ft, dual axle. We did all sorts of training and certification stuff for diving, climbing/repelling, you name it there was probably a certification for it.
My driver training was all done with an on staff certified instructor who was a full-timer in the large truck and sometimes a grass rig. I basically had to do XX hours (I can't remember now exactly) behind the wheel and not run over anything I wasn't supposed to. This included backing up with mirrors in tight spots, etc. That gave me a certification to allow me to drive all the fire dept equip. I did the same sort of program (yet separate) to be certified to drive the ambulances. I never took a CDL test or anything for any of it, I just got cheesy cards in the mail printed on a dot matrix printer.
The area was generally pretty slow, most calls were car accidents or water rescue in the summer due to the lakes around us and the summer tourist invasion. Real building fires were about as rare as unicorn teeth. I only ever participated in 1 over those years.
Now I have to wonder if all that was even adequate in the case something bad had ever happened such as an accident or something. The BMV and DOT weren't even involved in the cert process that I can remember.

CDL licensing didn't become standardized across all the states until 1992 with the implementation of the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act so you were probably operating legally based on your state's requirements.  Prior to that states set their own standards and in some cases were pretty deficient in how they handed out licenses.  It wasn't unusual for a trucker to lose their license in one state and just go get a new license in a different state.  Now all states have to follow federally mandated minimum requirements and all drivers' information is captured in a federal database.  So, if you lose you license in one state, going to another state wont help you because the federal system will disqualify you.  All that being said, the important question is whether or not you felt comfortable driving your rig.  I felt comfortable moving rigs around the yard but knew I wasn't ready to deal with taking one down the road with traffic.  Considering the fact that I wasn't even old enough to get a learner's permit at the time, that was an appreciation of the skills needed to safely hit the highway with an 18-wheeler.  So, unless you had a lot of OMG's and Whoops and Oh-Shits when driving I wouldn't worry that you were under-trained or unqualified.

And to get back on topic, DUmmies believe that being a welder or electrician or truck driver or farmer is inferior to having a useless BA that qualifies you to work at McDonalds.  In the past week they talked about blockading all truck traffic from entering the DC area.  The Teamsters always joke that the quickest way to settle a strike is to quit deliveries to DC, because they would be out of gas in 3 days, out of food in 7 days and a Mad Max level dystopia within two weeks.  Recently one of the DUmmies was complaining about the voting patterns of the Midwest and said that everyone should boycott those states because they're all just dumb farmers.  OK DUmmy, boycott food.  Let me know how that turns our for you.  As someone who grew up surrounded by skilled blue collar workers, including truckers and farmers, I waver between laughing at their stupidity and pissed off at their disrespect of the people who allow them to exist.

[landofconfusion80]

I got my class A in 2018. I was at a school that took pride in having highly trained graduates in comparison to the state funded school. I was fortunate to have prior experience with bumper pull trailers so they were worried that I was a bit too overconfident behind the wheel. It's a tiring, thankless job that really doesn't pay what it should. Not everyone can drive these things as easy as it's made to look.

[franksolich]

For whatever it's worth, which probably isn't much, my letter to the small-town once-weekly newspaper out here:

It has been encouraging, watching the recent demonstrations in Ottawa, Canada, which cause has since spread to various other countries.  I think it is pretty much undeniable that, leaving farmers in their own class, truck drivers are the most important, the most essential, component of our society.

Without truck drivers, we got nothing.

And so when they have a complaint, it serves the rest of us well to heed them.

But this protest is more than just about truck drivers and an ostensible preventative against a virus; it is what was once called “the silent majority” uprising against those in power who contemptuously consider them irrelevant, unimportant, not worth listening to.

The best way to make an enemy of someone is by telling him he doesn’t count.

This minority happens to be in positions of power and dominance because of their placement in governmental bureaucracy, the news media, academia, and popular culture. 

Because of this dominance, they assume themselves to be the majority, and it doesn’t help that the true majority abets them in their delusion by being silent.  It’s long past time they learned the truth.

Thank you.

[fatboy]

Don't mean to get off topic, but that sounds pretty strict and has me wondering now about the validity of my own experience.
I lived in a small town back in the late 80's and was also a volunteer. Our largest truck was a pump truck that also hauled all the accessory stuff and hoses, somewhat large and I would guess going from long term memory, maybe 25-30ft, dual axle. We did all sorts of training and certification stuff for diving, climbing/repelling, you name it there was probably a certification for it.
My driver training was all done with an on staff certified instructor who was a full-timer in the large truck and sometimes a grass rig. I basically had to do XX hours (I can't remember now exactly) behind the wheel and not run over anything I wasn't supposed to. This included backing up with mirrors in tight spots, etc. That gave me a certification to allow me to drive all the fire dept equip. I did the same sort of program (yet separate) to be certified to drive the ambulances. I never took a CDL test or anything for any of it, I just got cheesy cards in the mail printed on a dot matrix printer.
The area was generally pretty slow, most calls were car accidents or water rescue in the summer due to the lakes around us and the summer tourist invasion. Real building fires were about as rare as unicorn teeth. I only ever participated in 1 over those years.
Now I have to wonder if all that was even adequate in the case something bad had ever happened such as an accident or something. The BMV and DOT weren't even involved in the cert process that I can remember.

I think it depends of the state and the local fire district. In PA where I'm at, don't quote me on this, but I think a volunteer firefighter can drive a fire truck (in state) with just a standard drivers license. In my particular fire company, we require each potential driver take EVOC (16 hours) which is a state fire academy local training class, pumps 1 and 2 (total 32 hours) and be checked by a captain out on each truck they want to drive. In my opinion, the actual driving part of EVOC is harder than a class B CDL but all of the EVOC driving is on a closed course, Class B is part closed course part open road.

Years ago my fire company received a state grant to fund CDL training for those who wanted it, all but one of our drivers took it. Our insurance company is happy about this and my particular CDL has an exemption to the physical but I could use it for commercial reasons. Again I'm not sure what the commonwealth requires but my fire company requires EVOC and pumps 1&2 at a minimum. Having said all this always give a fire truck a wide berth, not only because emergency vehicles have a right of way but also because you have no way of knowing the skills of the guy behind the wheel. Even with a CDL, the tanker we had at the time, an early 1980s 2000 gallon MACK 5 speed (no split) it took this camper about 8 determined months to master.

In PA the only requirements for firefighters to fight fire or take part in rescues is (drum roll......) CPR and HazMat awareness. You could in theory legally join a fire organization, knowing nothing, take CPR and HazMat and then proceed to put on an airpack and enter a fire room. Scary but true. I think NJ requires the states equivalent of Fire Fighter 1 (Pro Board Cert) to run fire calls.

[FunkyZero]

I think it depends of the state and the local fire district. In PA where I'm at, don't quote me on this, but I think a volunteer firefighter can drive a fire truck (in state) with just a standard drivers license. In my particular fire company, we require each potential driver take EVOC (16 hours) which is a state fire academy local training class, pumps 1 and 2 (total 32 hours) and be checked by a captain out on each truck they want to drive. In my opinion, the actual driving part of EVOC is harder than a class B CDL but all of the EVOC driving is on a closed course, Class B is part closed course part open road.

Years ago my fire company received a state grant to fund CDL training for those who wanted it, all but one of our drivers took it. Our insurance company is happy about this and my particular CDL has an exemption to the physical but I could use it for commercial reasons. Again I'm not sure what the commonwealth requires but my fire company requires EVOC and pumps 1&2 at a minimum. Having said all this always give a fire truck a wide berth, not only because emergency vehicles have a right of way but also because you have no way of knowing the skills of the guy behind the wheel. Even with a CDL, the tanker we had at the time, an early 1980s 2000 gallon MACK 5 speed (no split) it took this camper about 8 determined months to master.

In PA the only requirements for firefighters to fight fire or take part in rescues is (drum roll......) CPR and HazMat awareness. You could in theory legally join a fire organization, knowing nothing, take CPR and HazMat and then proceed to put on an airpack and enter a fire room. Scary but true. I think NJ requires the states equivalent of Fire Fighter 1 (Pro Board Cert) to run fire calls.

Ok well even this small department where I was at, they weren't that loose. We had to train for almost everything, including SCBA, etc. We even had one drill where they would shout out a fitting name or particular hose length and you had 5 seconds to locate it on the truck and touch it, so a lot of memorization too.
The most fun was the ones where they black out an SCBA and you put it on and crawl around the entire building looking for a CPR mannequin they would hide, and you had to stay within the rules of a burning structure, stay near the walls, all that stuff.  That was difficult, but fun. Mostly everyone laughing at you while you struggle around blind on the floor in full gear, and it did look funny as an observer. Oddly, the coolest thing I learned was how to carry someone down a ladder, as simple as it was, I had never given it much thought before then.
With the driving certification, we had some parking lot cone stuff we did, but most of it was driving around town, backing up and turning around down narrow alleys and whatnot, it wasn't very easy. My farm experience helped me a lot in that one. The ambulance part was a bit unnerving though, but I think it was because of the guy training me. I remember him telling me after a couple of days "just get on the centerline and floor it, they'll move". I never really did feel comfortable adopting that method of trusting other drivers.
anyway, the previous comment just made me wonder if the training was really adequate from a legal and insurance perspective, and apparently it was at the time.

[SVPete]

Ever since Reagan's masterful handling of the MSM starting in 1979 or 1980, Libs' and Progs' predictable knee-jerk response has been to try to silence what they don't want to hear or be heard. As Reb Tevye would say, "It's a tradition."

IMO, the 1987 shutdown of the "Fairness Doctrine" was as least partly responsive to the MSM's mid-late 80s refusal to cover many/most of Reagan's speeches.