I see memes calling for more vocational schooling. Do we not already have about

[Texacon]

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216062608

Elitists.  To be fair, a bunch of DUmmies are jumping the OP.

brewens (10,689 posts)


I see memes calling for more vocational schooling. Do we not already have about as many of those

schools as we need? I don't know if there is a shortage of workers in those trades now, but before COVID I was seeing those, and that wasn't the case.

Okay, so if we train up bunch of machinists or whatever, what do they do? There would need to be demand, or they'd be like the guys with masters waiting tables.

greenjar_01 (5,690 posts)

2. Most of this is propaganda

We certainly need people to specialize in trades and should make significant efforts to route people toward trades in high school. The fact is that we already do this. A lot of the "Trades not College" discourse is just right wing wedge issue nonsense trying to attack college education among people who were never really going to go to college anyway.

Sure, a plumber will make more money than an entry level marketer, but only if you own your own company, otherwise it's a wash, and marketing work is easier when you're 45 than plumbing, and plus it takes a certain type to deal with the shit. The trades promoters will always tell you that welders make $125,000. Sure, if you're lucky enough to land it. On average, college grads still make more than non-college grads, and it's not close. This is an objective fact about income.

The idea of the philosophy major who is a barista is funny hahah but largely untrue. Philosophy majors mostly track into law school and - here's a surprise - investment banking, because a mid-range school philosophy major will be better than a mid-range school finance guy at reading contracts and analyzing data objectively (Finance major curricula are notoriously ideological bullshit - Goldman doesn't trust the middling ones to make good decisions ). I especially love the people who scoff at arts and lit degrees. "Creative writing, hahaha, what a joke." Meanwhile, these same clowns spend 35% of their disposal income on art and writing (what, do they think plumbers write television shows? you know, a theater major almost certainly set up the lighting on that episode of Succession, and who the **** do they think designed the packaging that made them select the one moronic product over the other, a carpenter?).

The trades argument is an easy argument, but a mile wide and an inch deep.

All I have to say about the post above is; spoken like a true 'know it all' who knows absolutely nothing about the subject they are talking about.  Wish this DUmmie would come over to post.  I hire a LOT of welders and can provide real data that would make his head spin about what welders are making these days.

That's all I'm bringing over, but some good stuff there.

KC

[Karin]

I'll row over, but how on earth can one spend 35% of one's disposable income on a TV show?  They're free. 

[enslaved1]

My district has been on a college for everybody push the last couple of years and it annoys the snot out of me.  Not everyone is built for college, for numerous reasons.  Lots of kids, regardless of ability, are not ready for college at 18 (I wasn't).  Society needs those skilled trade workers, and God bless the folks who are happy doing that work as a career.  I don't know what the number of actual vocational schools is, but I believe the push brewens is seeing is not for more schools, but to encourage more people to enroll.  IT certs, carpentry certs, electrical certs, machining, welding, ect are all worth more than the infamous medieval LGBTQ literature degree, for a dozen reasons. 

[Texacon]

This is the response that surprised me the most, due to who the poster is, but it's a good post none the less.

LuckyCharms (10,765 posts)

19. There is a shortage of master carpenters that will most likely

continue to grow.

I am not basing this statement on actual stats that I have researched, but rather, several articles and videos that I have seen explaining why the shortage is occurring, so please take my statement with a grain of salt and research the statistics if you are interested in the subject.

I've completed a three year trade school for carpentry. I also have both a two year associates and a 4 year BS Degree in accounting.

I've spent most of my career in white collar finance related jobs.

I am a huge advocate , however, for working in the trades.

I would like to say something concerning people who work in the trades. Even after all of these years, I still occasionally sense a stigma against tradespeople. Something along the lines of "if you are not smart enough to go to college, get into the trades".

I will go as far to say that a good tradesperson can be, and usually is, more intelligent and analytical than your run of the mill, college educated person. If that sounds too harsh, then I'll tone it down a bit by saying that in general, tradespeople are AT LEAST as intelligent and employable as a college educated person.

Tradespeople these days must perform tasks similar to the following:

1) Manipulate estimating software to achieve optimal cost estimates for large construction jobs.

2) Determine the maximum stress loads of different structural building materials.

3) Layout and install complete electrical and heating/cooling systems that are both effective and cost efficient.

4) Use a variety of high tech tools quickly and safely.

5) Understand the properties of the materials you are working with, and how those properties will change under different environmental conditions.

6) Have a full understanding of geometry, trigonometry, and some calculus.

7) Have the analytical skills to remediate a wide variety of construction issues, that perhaps the tradesman have never seen before.

8) Have physical strength and a strong work ethic.

9) Have the ability to mentor apprentices.

10) Have the mental clarity to keep safe at all times. Have the ability to anticipate safety problems before they occur.

11) Understand complex formulas, and how to manipulate those formulas to achieve the results desired.

Relatively few people have what it takes to perform well in the trades.

There will NEVER be enough tradespeople to fulfill demand.

KC

[fatboy]

After high school my son was adrift for a few years until we talked him into going to trade school. Less than a year and about $3,000  tuition.

Today he is an aerospace welder, makes decent money, decent benefits, a fairly good working environment.

Going to college was not something he wanted to do, not for a lack of effort by his parents to get him to at least get a community college degree. One other thing about my son the welder. He is a member of MENSA. He could do anything he wanted in an academic setting.

Contrast to my daughter. She is a medical lab technologist which is a good job, pays well and there is demand. My daughter doesn't have quite the academic horsepower but has the desire to do well academically. Basically her degree is a BS in chemistry with an additional 10 months internship. Her great Aunt gave her $150,000 for college, this still wasn't enough, my wife and I borrowed $21k and my daughter borrowed $19k

So given all that, my son got a lot lot higher earning/tuition/time in school ratio out of his post secondary training than my daughter.

In my opinion, the days of getting a good job in a business setting with a stupid liberal arts degree are long gone. The DUmmies simply can't help themselves with this point.

[SVPete]

1. DU-Snobbery on parade. Unsurprising!

2. ChuckyLarms being somewhat of a voice of reason? Confirmed Porcine Aviator Sighting!!

3. I'm a graduate from one of the De Vry schools, back when they were "institutes of technology". I've done reasonably well for myself, and I've seen enough De Vry grads during my career to understand - not that I needed an explanation - why companies go to De Vry schools to recruit new employees. At my first Silicon Valley job, an entire test area had been staffed from De Vry Cleveland, KC, and Phoenix. This test area was for displays that would be used on the Navy's F-18 Hornet, at a time when the plane was still in the approval process. That was a really big program, and the company staffed the test group from De Vry schools.

4. DU-Snobs can go self-copulate!

[Texacon]

In my opinion, the days of getting a good job in a business setting with a stupid liberal arts degree are long gone. The DUmmies simply can't help themselves with this point.

They want to believe that you are not educated OR intelligent, if you didn't go to a university/college and get a degree.  They, like those who simply refuse to believe in natural immunity, refuse to believe there is any other way to get an education.  And, if you don't have that college education, you must not be intelligent.

It's a huge fault they have, but it lets them think they are above the little people.  Oh well, I'll retire quite well without a degree.

KC

[SVPete]

...
In my opinion, the days of getting a good job in a business setting with a stupid liberal arts degree are long gone. The DUmmies simply can't help themselves with this point.

Up into the 70s or 80s, companies hiring strategy was, "Get an arts degree, with a little of everything and prove you can and will learn. We'll train you on the specifics." Now it's more like, "We need a junior-level ________, and want someone with that ________ major."

Prestige schools - e.g. Stanford or Berkeley, in the SF Bay Area - have become horrible bargains. Grads step out of the school into "good" jobs, if they are lucky, whose starting salaries are 1/5 - 1/10 of their student loan debt. They'll be slaves to that debt, if they are honest enough to repay it, at a time the inclination of many is to start families, for possibly a decade or more.

Meanwhile, also in the SF Bay Area, San Jose State is respected by employers and costs far less. But their diploma isn't as fancy and SJSU isn't a household name outside of the Bay Area.

[Ralph Wiggum]

The idea of the philosophy major who is a barista is funny hahah but largely untrue. Philosophy majors mostly track into law school and - here's a surprise - investment banking, because a mid-range school philosophy major will be better than a mid-range school finance guy at reading contracts and analyzing data objectively (Finance major curricula are notoriously ideological bullshit - Goldman doesn't trust the middling ones to make good decisions )

Wow, what B.S.  Arrogant much?

[BannedFromDU]

Wow, what B.S.  Arrogant much?

     And not even true.

[DLR Pyro]

LuckyCharms (10,765 posts)

19. There is a shortage of master carpenters that will most likely

continue to grow.

most construction/carpentry jobs in southern california are being done by illegal labor at low wages so why would someone with master skills work in an area where his skill has depressed wages?

[Aristotelian]

One of my economics teachers at school would constantly point out that when he was young an accountant would leave school at 16 and be trained in the job; then a little later they needed higher qualifications and left school at 18; but now they need degrees as well.

We've created a world where many jobs demand a degree even where they don't need one.

[Texacon]

We've created a world where many jobs demand a degree even where they don't need one.

This is something I've said for a very long time.  The schools have very good salesmen who go out to companies and tell them their workforce would be SO much better if they only had a degree.

Here in Texas they have been pushing for Associates degrees for real estate agents, and Bachelor degrees for real estate brokers.  I have been a real estate broker for over 15 years and I can tell you, it ain't rocket science!

KC

[Muddling 2]

This is something I've said for a very long time.  The schools have very good salesmen who go out to companies and tell them their workforce would be SO much better if they only had a degree.

Here in Texas they have been pushing for Associates degrees for real estate agents, and Bachelor degrees for real estate brokers.  I have been a real estate broker for over 15 years and I can tell you, it ain't rocket science!

KC

That's the industry trying to restrict entry in order to boost income for the current Agents/Brokers.

[BannedFromDU]

     There's a certain class of people who think their college diploma removes all indole, skatole, and mercaptans from the aroma of their own shit.

     For example...

     

[SVPete]

What was Keefie's major at Cornell? Coeds? Macho gays?

[enslaved1]

We've created a world where many jobs demand a degree even where they don't need one.

I've seen IT folks share want ads requesting more years experience in various programming languages than the language has been around.   

[BannedFromDU]

What was Keefie's major at Cornell? Coeds? Macho gays?

     Probably colonic and esophageal restoration methodologies.

[Ralph Wiggum]

     Probably colonic and esophageal restoration methodologies.

  (For the belly laugh from that line)

It is really sad how Keef Olberdork as fallen in the hierarchy of media.  The dude is an astute baseball and sports guy, and should have just stuck with it.  On SportsCenter, he and Dan Patrick were must see TV every night on ESPN.  But no, he had to start opining on politics and being a demi-God amongst egghead liberals.  The dude is seriously deranged at this point.

If anyone cares to look this up, Keef claims he hit his head as a young man while catching a subway train and has some equilibrium disorder.  Maybe that explains his growing insanity.

[thundley4]

greenjar_01 (5,690 posts)

2. Most of this is propaganda

 

greenjar is probably one of those democrats demanding that his plumber and car mechanic pay more taxes to pay off his college debt.

Speaking of which, we never hear about trade school graduates demanding that their tuition be paid off.

[SVPete]

greenjar is probably one of those democrats demanding that his plumber and car mechanic pay more taxes to pay off his college debt.

Speaking of which, we never hear about trade school graduates demanding that their tuition be paid off.

My student loan got paid off when Carter was President. It was probably a little less than my annual wage at my first Silicon Valley job (also during Carter's years), so it was well before the more recent tuition inflation.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

I wonder if this is one of the memes that has all of those highly educated idiots feeling butt hurt...

[landofconfusion80]

Spent 4 years in college for engineering and I'm now driving trucks. Very bitter pill to swallow but the pay is better.

[SVPete]

I wonder if this is one of the memes that has all of those highly educated idiots feeling butt hurt...

  "Jim" must have gone to a no-name liberal arts school. If he'd gone to a prestige school the debt would be $200K-$300K, and the entitlement 20X greater.