Please shout out here if you support the troops who refuse to serve...

[asdf2231]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3842517

Adventures in Asshattery!

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 09:51 AM
Original message
Please shout out here if you support the troops who refuse to serve in Bush's war
 Advertisements [?]I guess it is inevitable in an election year that a lot of new people come here to talk to fellow Democrats and progressives. I love to see DU grow but I am disturbed by a trend I see in threads like this one that criticize the soldiers brave enough to resist and those refusing to serve.

So I guess I want the new DUers to know that there are quite a few peace and anti-war activists here on DU. And most are long time members. We applaud the troops who resist. We understand they may have volunteered to serve but were misled by recruiters or trapped by economics in Bush's America.

Many of us have gathered and marched together as DUers at marches in DC and other cities across the country to end the occupation in the middle east. Many of us went to Crawford, TX in 2005 to stand in solidarity with Cindy Sheehan. We are not a minor or insignificant part of this online community.

We also know that our pResident did not meet his own military obligations and it is beyond hypocritical for him and 5 deferment Cheney to wage an illegal and immoral war on Iraq.

So please give a shout if you support the troops who refuse to serve. 

wtmusic  (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. If you were ordered to kill an innocent child in cold blood
 would you pull the trigger? (it did happen at Haditha).

After all, you can't accept all of the benefits and then decide not to do the work when things take a turn you don't like.

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Maybe you didn't understand my OP?
 But game on. I'll play.

Recruiters lie. My son's friend's dad went bankrupt and his college fund was gone. So he signed up. His recruiter told him if he joined the navy he would go to Japan. He just came home with a bullet inside him that he got while serving combat duty in Iraq. He didn't even get there on a ship. They flew him from basic training to Iraq.

Casey Sheehan wanted to be a priest. He also needed money for college so he signed up and was told he could be a chaplain. After basic, he was told he could be a mechanic. He was sent into combat. I think you know what happened to him.

Tomas Young signed up to go to Afghanistan. He was sent to Iraq and a sniper's bullet hit him in his chest while he was riding in an unprotected open truck on his 5th day in Iraq. He is now paralyzed from the chest down.

Soldiers don't volunteer to die, to be lied to or to be maimed for life. The truly brave troops are resisting. Soldiers who spoke out and refused orders in Vietnam helped end that war.

 

DailyGrind51 (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. If they were 18, they probably signed for the tuition benefits or all 
 the "action hero" stuff they saw in those recruiting commercials. Hell, at 18 they can't buy booze in most states or take out a loan, why hold them to a life-changing commitment like military service?

NEM (49 posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Sorry, that is NOT what they signed up to do.
 This is the oath that enlisted men swear to upon joining the military


"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

What they were ordered to do by the President of The United States was NOT defending our Constitution, and it was based on lies and deception.

Although the oath says that they will obey the orders of the POTUS, the Uniform Code of Military Justice includes paragraphs that say that they may DIS-Obey those orders if they deem them to be unlawful.

It is, however, extremely difficult to prove the unlawfulness of those orders.

 

wuushew (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. I think long term contracts could be argued to be a form of tyranny
 Edited on Sat Aug-23-08 02:00 PM by wuushew
Decisions and outcomes that are more frequently reevaluated lead to the greatest personal happiness. Guaranteed service is good for the MIC because it cuts down on force uncertainty at the expense of personal choice.

Why does the U.S. need such a guaranteed pool of force when we spend more than the next twenty nations combined? How about a smaller happier force that provides some level of feedback on the nature of the mission?

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. How many troops do you know?
 I was at Winter Soldier in March. It is amazing how many soldiers told of being forced to shoot innocent civilians. Many described it as "routine" or "SOP". So yes, they are being told to shoot a child point blank for no reason.  

FOAD you POS.  Seriously.

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Since our soldiers are being ordered to shoot innocent civilians
 yes, this is about refusing to serve in an illegal war. I was raised to do what's right and moral and just.

And as someone else said here, any of the troops brave enough to resist are welcome to stay at my home.

 

This asshole thread goes on and on...

[dutch508]

What a load of crap.

Their lies just get bigger and bigger.

I loved the one about the NAVY guy headed to Iraq after basic. BULL-SHIT.

[TheSarge]

wtmusic  (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. If you were ordered to kill an innocent child in cold blood
 would you pull the trigger? (it did happen at Haditha).

And yet the alleged trigger pullers have all been aquitted one by one.

Guess you missed that little tidbit in the news.


And the other thing these pantywaists will never admit is that all of their "heroic" resistors HAVEN'T BEEN TO WHERE THEY SAID THEY DEPLOYED TO!!!


Listen up you lurking ****tard DUmmies...quote me if you want and post what I say back at the DUmp if you dare...those of us that actually wear the uniform with pride...do what we are told and don't make stuff up for chickenshit reasons...watch out for asshats like you are cheering over there.  We have ways on our own to verify who they are and whether they are selling you a sack of crap. (Hint: 99.9% of them are BULLSHITTING YOU!!!)  And when we find out what kind of ****tards they are...WE TURN THEM IN!

And when they sit in Leavenworth or the local brig at Knox or Charleston or Quantico or where ever...it slowly sinks in to them just how much they really mean to unpatriotic terrorist loving dipshits like Proud2Btraitor and wtmuzak...

NOTHING

Because once you've used them up and they are of no use to you...you just move on to the next shiny object you can hide behind to further your traitorous cause.

[TheSarge]

Oh and for the people that lurk here from TOS that have an issue with me having reported soldiers violating UCMJ in the past


 

[GOBUCKS]

At DU, it's hats off to any and all traitors, deserters, and cowards. Not only do they help undermine the best interests of the United States, but, more importantly to DU, they represent the heart of the democrat party and what it stands for.

[BlueStateSaint]

At DU, it's hats off to any and all traitors, deserters, and cowards. Not only do they help undermine the best interests of the United States, but, more importantly to DU, they represent the heart of the democrat party and what it stands for.

They can't abandon their base, ya know . . .

[MPCOA]

Too bad for the Sheehan theory, but he reenlisted.

[Airwolf]

wtmusic  (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. If you were ordered to kill an innocent child in cold blood
 would you pull the trigger? (it did happen at Haditha).

And yet the alleged trigger pullers have all been aquitted one by one.

Guess you missed that little tidbit in the news.


And the other thing these pantywaists will never admit is that all of their "heroic" resistors HAVEN'T BEEN TO WHERE THEY SAID THEY DEPLOYED TO!!!


Listen up you lurking ****tard DUmmies...quote me if you want and post what I say back at the DUmp if you dare...those of us that actually wear the uniform with pride...do what we are told and don't make stuff up for chickenshit reasons...watch out for asshats like you are cheering over there.  We have ways on our own to verify who they are and whether they are selling you a sack of crap. (Hint: 99.9% of them are BULLSHITTING YOU!!!)  And when we find out what kind of ****tards they are...WE TURN THEM IN!

And when they sit in Leavenworth or the local brig at Knox or Charleston or Quantico or where ever...it slowly sinks in to them just how much they really mean to unpatriotic terrorist loving dipshits like Proud2Btraitor and wtmuzak...

NOTHING

Because once you've used them up and they are of no use to you...you just move on to the next shiny object you can hide behind to further your traitorous cause.

Its not like they haven't pulled this shit before with the lies and treasonous talk. How many of their so called anti war hero's during Vietnam were later found out to have never served or never were anyplace near the places they claimed to have seen and did things reminiscent of Genghis Khan ? These lies were old then and they sure as **** didn't age any better for todays use.

[Chris_]

It is amazing how many soldiers told of being forced to shoot innocent civilians. Many described it as "routine" or "SOP". So yes, they are being told to shoot a child point blank for no reason.

Go to hell, you traitorous ****ing liar. Spare us your phony concern about "children", scum c%%t. And can we PLEASE prosecute the phony Winter Soldiers under Stolen Valor or any other relevant Federal statutes?

[asdf2231]

Karenina  (1000+ posts)      Sat Aug-23-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
126. Your and Colbert"s posts should be distilled into a PSA
 REQUIRED VIEWING at every H.S. in the U.S.

Don't want to wake up every morning in some G_d forsaken HELL-HOLE the recruiter you trusted SWORE you'd never be sent to?

DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY!

Don't want to wantonly KILL people who've done NOTHING to you, yours OR YOUR COUNTRY?

DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY!

Don't want to return home battered, crazed and be warehoused in some moldy, stinking shithole having to FIGHT for every benefit you were "guaranteed?"

DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY!

Don't want to DIE so some rich ****s can make more money than they could EVER spend in this lifetime while your family is shattered?

DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY!

Don't want to experience, up close and personal, the TOTAL BETRAYAL BY YOUR GUBMINT of every core value you were brought up with?

DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY! DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY! DON'T JOIN THE ****ING ARMY!


Cuz if you DO sign on the dotted line, everything that happens to you thereafter is your own damned fault!

[Airwolf]

The DU is living proof of the reason why this country should look into shooting some asshats into space, one way.

[BlueStateSaint]

The DU is living proof of the reason why this country should look into shooting some asshats into space, one way.

Might I suggest duct-taping them to the exterior of the rockets first?  We don't want them inside the boosters, where their toxic odors might disable some valuable instrumentation.

[NHSparky]

What a load of crap.

Their lies just get bigger and bigger.

I loved the one about the NAVY guy headed to Iraq after basic. BULL-SHIT.

Especially as a former recruiter, one of the BIG no-no's was telling people we could guarantee them a duty station, specific school, etc.

And please, oh enlightened DUmmies, just why on God's green earth would a NAVY boot be sent STRAIGHT to Iraq?  Was he a corpsman?

Oh wait--he didn't go to HM "A" and "C" schools for Combat Corpsman?  Really?  Then WTF was he doing there? 

Was he like TiT and a SEAL?  Oh wait--he didn't go to BUD/S either.  Damn it all to hell!

The ONLY people who would have a duty assignment "straight out of boot camp" would be non-designated folks, and even they will have gone through AT (Apprenticeship Training) for four-six weeks, followed by 15-30 days of leave prior to reporting to their first squadron/ship/duty station.

And Marines/Army?  Ya'll ever heard of AIT?

So zero ****ing bongs for you, dipshits.

[miskie]

Here is a short, related thread. I felt it needed mention but not enough to deserve its own topic.

jmowreader  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-24-08 09:14 AM
Original message

I do NOT support troops protesting the war by deserting!!!
   
There are two reasons for this stand.

First, it makes the whole antiwar effort look very bad--"those un-American LIEberals are just using the same stunt that made us lose the Vietnam War! Why won't those dirty hippies grow up?"

And second, there's a much better way to get yourself thrown out of the Army for less than $250, with little if any jail time and a very slight stain on your record involved. Here's how it works:

The military has a program that in the Army is called ADAPCP--Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Program. It's pretty diverse--it ranges from treatment to enforcement. If you somehow get one of those "problems" the Army will help you correct it. But if your "problem" is you've been sent to Iraq six times and don't want to go back, they can help you correct that too.

Step One is to invest in a lid of marijuana. It doesn't even have to be good marijuana for this to work--it only has to be pot with THC in it. (If you're clever, you can find ditch weed in the training area of your base, so this might even be free for you.) Smoke a joint a day for three days.

Step Two is to utilize your company commander's open-door policy. Tell the CO you have a problem: you smoke weed and you want help. By Army regulation they are not allowed to take action against you for doing this. The CO will refer you to ADAPCP, and you go. ADAPCP has three tracks--Track I is "awareness education," Track II is outpatient treatment and Track III is inpatient treatment. You'll probably wind up in Track II--which includes frequent urinalyses.

Step Three is to keep smoking weed. Eventually (meaning "within two weeks") they're going to piss test you in Track II, you'll come up hot, and they'll throw you out of the Army for failing your drug treatment program. Simple, convenient and you don't wind up with a General Court-Martial in your permanent criminal record. If you REALLY want to get thrown out quick, come home from your first ADAPCP appointment and fire up a blunt in the company dayroom.

People used to eat their way out of the Army or repeatedly fail the Army Physical Fitness Test, but that takes years in some cases and you spend FAR more time at remedial PT than anyone wants to. Weed will get you kicked out in three weeks if you do it right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3846732

[docstew]

Here is a short, related thread. I felt it needed mention but not enough to deserve its own topic.

jmowreader  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-24-08 09:14 AM
Original message

I do NOT support troops protesting the war by deserting!!!
   
There are two reasons for this stand.

First, it makes the whole antiwar effort look very bad--"those un-American LIEberals are just using the same stunt that made us lose the Vietnam War! Why won't those dirty hippies grow up?"

And second, there's a much better way to get yourself thrown out of the Army for less than $250, with little if any jail time and a very slight stain on your record involved. Here's how it works:

The military has a program that in the Army is called ADAPCP--Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Program. It's pretty diverse--it ranges from treatment to enforcement. If you somehow get one of those "problems" the Army will help you correct it. But if your "problem" is you've been sent to Iraq six times and don't want to go back, they can help you correct that too.

Step One is to invest in a lid of marijuana. It doesn't even have to be good marijuana for this to work--it only has to be pot with THC in it. (If you're clever, you can find ditch weed in the training area of your base, so this might even be free for you.) Smoke a joint a day for three days.

Step Two is to utilize your company commander's open-door policy. Tell the CO you have a problem: you smoke weed and you want help. By Army regulation they are not allowed to take action against you for doing this. The CO will refer you to ADAPCP, and you go. ADAPCP has three tracks--Track I is "awareness education," Track II is outpatient treatment and Track III is inpatient treatment. You'll probably wind up in Track II--which includes frequent urinalyses.

Step Three is to keep smoking weed. Eventually (meaning "within two weeks") they're going to piss test you in Track II, you'll come up hot, and they'll throw you out of the Army for failing your drug treatment program. Simple, convenient and you don't wind up with a General Court-Martial in your permanent criminal record. If you REALLY want to get thrown out quick, come home from your first ADAPCP appointment and fire up a blunt in the company dayroom.

People used to eat their way out of the Army or repeatedly fail the Army Physical Fitness Test, but that takes years in some cases and you spend FAR more time at remedial PT than anyone wants to. Weed will get you kicked out in three weeks if you do it right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3846732

well, i will say that he knows something about the system... however, it'd be much easier and quicker to:
STEP ONE: use the commander's open door policy and tell him that you are gay.  provide pictures of you engaged in homosexual activity and/or state that you are afraid that your fellow service members will or have beat you up for it.
STEP TWO: recieve your honorable discharge.

[DixieBelle]

proudtobeanasshat just needs to be removed from the gene pool. Disgusting piece of sh*t.

And wouldn't being booted from the military for drugs hmmm....I don't know???? Look bad on your record??? I know, I know...they are idjits.

[Bondai]

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Maybe you didn't understand my OP?
 But game on. I'll play.

Recruiters lie. My son's friend's dad went bankrupt and his college fund was gone. So he signed up. His recruiter told him if he joined the navy he would go to Japan. He just came home with a bullet inside him that he got while serving combat duty in Iraq. He didn't even get there on a ship. They flew him from basic training to Iraq.

You lie as well and this is a whopper you POS....

[Airwolf]

Why can't we just stick them with a rusty screwdriver through the eyeballs?

[rich_t]

proudtobeanasshat just needs to be removed from the gene pool. Disgusting piece of sh*t.

And wouldn't being booted from the military for drugs hmmm....I don't know???? Look bad on your record??? I know, I know...they are idjits.

It earned one an "other than honorable" discharge back when I was wearing the uniform of the US Armed Forces.

[Rebel]

I'm ready for a revolution. The country should be cleansed from these ****ers. 

[Vagabond]

proud2Blib  (1000+ posts)       Sat Aug-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Maybe you didn't understand my OP?
 But game on. I'll play.

Recruiters lie. My son's friend's dad went bankrupt and his college fund was gone. So he signed up. His recruiter told him if he joined the navy he would go to Japan. He just came home with a bullet inside him that he got while serving combat duty in Iraq. He didn't even get there on a ship. They flew him from basic training to Iraq.

This may have some small element of truth in it, the Navy has in fact filled some Army billets in fact I know of a pilot that completed Navy Test Pilot school and was sent to fill an Army billet in Iraq.  But!  Look closely at the contract, bottom line he goes where he's needed and when he is told.

Casey Sheehan wanted to be a priest. He also needed money for college so he signed up and was told he could be a chaplain. After basic, he was told he could be a mechanic. He was sent into combat. I think you know what happened to him.

Bullshit!  Number one, to join the Army as a chaplain implies that he would have completed seminary and have a collegiate degree.  Number two, if he really wanted to be a chaplain, he could have negotiated something in his second contract, since he didn't one is left to assume that Casey may well have been reasonably happy as a mechanic in the Army.  Diesel mechanics make good money on the outside.  Number three, now what?  Do you honestly believe that chaplain's are impervious to bullets and shrapnel?  I can assure you, DUmmie, they aren't.

Tomas Young signed up to go to Afghanistan. He was sent to Iraq and a sniper's bullet hit him in his chest while he was riding in an unprotected open truck on his 5th day in Iraq. He is now paralyzed from the chest down.

Incorrect, he signed up to go where the powers that be sent him.  I suppose next the DUmmies will insist that the snipers in Afghanistan aren't as good as the ones in Iraq.

Soldiers don't volunteer to die, to be lied to or to be maimed for life. The truly brave troops are resisting. Soldiers who spoke out and refused orders in Vietnam helped end that war.

Only the psychotic want to day or be maimed.  DU is proof that some people enjoy being lied to.  As far as the resistors, I got a DD 214.  If they present one to me and I can verify it, I might at least believe they were in.

 

[Rebel]

This may have some small element of truth in it, the Navy has in fact filled some Army billets in fact I know of a pilot that completed Navy Test Pilot school and was sent to fill an Army billet in Iraq.  But!  Look closely at the contract, bottom line he goes where he's needed and when he is told.

They don't fly ANYONE straight from Basic Training to Iraq.

[rich_t]

This may have some small element of truth in it, the Navy has in fact filled some Army billets in fact I know of a pilot that completed Navy Test Pilot school and was sent to fill an Army billet in Iraq.  But!  Look closely at the contract, bottom line he goes where he's needed and when he is told.

They don't fly ANYONE straight from Basic Training to Iraq.

Correct!

[rich_t]

in fact I know of a pilot that completed Navy Test Pilot school and was sent to fill an Army billet in Iraq.

What Army billet was this person allegedly sent to fill?

[Vagabond]

Here is a short, related thread. I felt it needed mention but not enough to deserve its own topic.

jmowreader  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-24-08 09:14 AM
Original message

I do NOT support troops protesting the war by deserting!!!
   
There are two reasons for this stand.

First, it makes the whole antiwar effort look very bad--"those un-American LIEberals are just using the same stunt that made us lose the Vietnam War! Why won't those dirty hippies grow up?"

And second, there's a much better way to get yourself thrown out of the Army for less than $250, with little if any jail time and a very slight stain on your record involved. Here's how it works:

The military has a program that in the Army is called ADAPCP--Alcohol and Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Program. It's pretty diverse--it ranges from treatment to enforcement. If you somehow get one of those "problems" the Army will help you correct it. But if your "problem" is you've been sent to Iraq six times and don't want to go back, they can help you correct that too.

Step One is to invest in a lid of marijuana. It doesn't even have to be good marijuana for this to work--it only has to be pot with THC in it. (If you're clever, you can find ditch weed in the training area of your base, so this might even be free for you.) Smoke a joint a day for three days.

Step Two is to utilize your company commander's open-door policy. Tell the CO you have a problem: you smoke weed and you want help. By Army regulation they are not allowed to take action against you for doing this. The CO will refer you to ADAPCP, and you go. ADAPCP has three tracks--Track I is "awareness education," Track II is outpatient treatment and Track III is inpatient treatment. You'll probably wind up in Track II--which includes frequent urinalyses.

Step Three is to keep smoking weed. Eventually (meaning "within two weeks") they're going to piss test you in Track II, you'll come up hot, and they'll throw you out of the Army for failing your drug treatment program. Simple, convenient and you don't wind up with a General Court-Martial in your permanent criminal record. If you REALLY want to get thrown out quick, come home from your first ADAPCP appointment and fire up a blunt in the company dayroom.

People used to eat their way out of the Army or repeatedly fail the Army Physical Fitness Test, but that takes years in some cases and you spend FAR more time at remedial PT than anyone wants to. Weed will get you kicked out in three weeks if you do it right.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3846732

Holy cow, what an idiot.  I doubt this guy has ever spent a day in the army.  First off, you come up hot the first time it isn't just ADAPCP, you will likely get a field grade article 15 meaning loss of two ranks (likely) , 45 days extra duty, and 45 days restricition to quarters (only allowed to work detail, excercise, chow, and extra duty).  Further, a field grade article 15 takes a good deal of time to process and impliment an article 15.  The BN CDR has to assess whether you are worth trying to rehabilitate, you CO has to make the same assessment and pass reports up.  The lawyer the Army provides to you has to review all the papwerwork with you and sign off on it with you.  The lawyer representing the Batallion has to review everything and make sure the Army has covered all of it's bases.  The process can take as long as six months.

Even better, while someone is awaiting disciplinary action they are not eligible for any favorable actions.  Do you want to go on leave?  You can't.  Do you want to attend that plum school, that you barely got a slot for?  You can't.  Do you want to get a four day pass, even on a four day weekend?  You guessed it, you can't.

Now, honestly, the Army didn't turn out to be my cup of tea.  I still don't see how this idiot can be this stupid.