Author Topic: Make your best pitch  (Read 1469 times)

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Online TheShoe

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Make your best pitch
« on: October 07, 2018, 04:41:01 PM »
I am white, in my 50s, have money, live in a rural area and own guns. Why should I vote for repubs?

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 05:38:32 PM »
"Do or do not, there is no try."

The reasons on the guns and money are obvious to anyone seriously interested in either one, on the rural land you might want to read up on Obama's 'Blueways' plans that would have imposed sweeping land use controls over vast swaths of the country for no real purpose beyond vastly expanding the 'Help' us poor Flyover bumpkins would not only receive from the Feds, but be required to get, will or no.   
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Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 05:49:13 PM »
I am serious about money but not so much on guns. To me it is not obvious as you say.

Offline FunkyZero

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 07:39:54 PM »
I am white, in my 50s, have money, live in a rural area and own guns. Why should I vote for repubs?

I'm not sure why you included any of those variables in your question, because none of them have a single thing to do with how a true conservative thinks they should personally vote.
To be conservative means you are stuck voting for republicans.
To be conservative, your voting patters aren't self-centered. A conservative doesn't vote for "his own best interests" as his primary consideration. Right, wrong, liberty and individual freedoms are what matter. i doubt anyone here is interested in convincing you of anything regarding your voting patterns. i know i'm not. Your own values are why you vote a certain way, not because you own a gun or have a big balance in your checking and cert accounts.
For example, I support the 2A because I think everyone should be able to make the choice to defend themselves, and those capable have a DUTY to do it... it has little to do with ME wanting to own guns.. that's only a secondary consideration. We keep guns primarily to shoot and kill any sonofabitch who tries to take them from us... and we aren't scared to say it out loud either. This is why the 2A was written, that is it's primary purpose... to tell any government that this is a God given right that they are absolutely prohibited from interfering with, ever. This is about the rights we are born with, we aren't the slightest bit interested in asking government for permission to be free, but we will openly dare them to try and take it, and we aren't kidding around either.

i don't vote republican because i'm what I would consider moderately well off, i vote republican because i don't believe in robbing people of their personal property and dividing it up among others; normal people call that stealing. And no, i'm not going to fall into the "but what about fire and police" argument with anyone either. Conservatives are more than willing to pool money with others for infrastructure and basic services... but most certainly not for commodities such as health insurance. Anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity and honesty knows full well what the general lines are here.

I vote republican because i only believe in equal OPPORTUNITY, and that's where equal should end from the perspective of government. Government is built, designed, and executed by humans, and humans are incapable of non-bias operation. Allowing any faction (be it right or left) to design the rules regarding who wins or loses is a dangerous condition that will ultimately lead to unchallenged fascism; it is without question, and has proved true without exception throughout history. We should simply leave the door open, and never stick our foot out and try to trip honest people. From there on, your skills, motivations and convictions guide you to your successes, or lack thereof. We will never agree to subsidize success,  and most certainly never by class or race. Race is a fascination and obsession of the left that few conservatives have any interest in whatsoever. ALL people should be allowed equal opportunity, and anyone who purposefully stands in an innocent persons path is an enemy of conservatism.

i wont say no one cares how you vote, all i'll say is that if your basic ideology includes infringing on the God given rights of another American, even a single one, then we wont agree on much of anything else, and you'll never change that vote anyway.

And THAT is why I, personally, am conservative and am stuck voting for republicans, and I'm pretty sure you will agree with none of that in real action... such as voting for a republican.

Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 08:22:41 PM »
Funky Zero, thank you that was well stated. Prolly the best layout of ideals I have heard yet. But you did not convince me. I respect your views,  but let me try to respond to each.

Variables:  based upon demographics, I shouid be a Republican.  I am the stereotypical conservative.  When people look at me, they think Repub.

Non self centered voting patterns:  that is exactly why I vote dem. I vote for the betterment of all, not just me.  Interesting on how we both are motivated by this but vote opposite.

Gun ownership and the 2A:  i haven’t looked at or shot my guns in 13 years. I never fear for my safety, mainly because I choose to live in low density, high net worth, safe areas. Guns used to be a fun hobby and I bought quite a few. I hate the power the NRA hoLds over my rep and Senator, they are beholden to the NRA not we the people. That is my main problem with guns.

Taxes:  yeah they suck I sure pay my share. To me healthcare is a huge issue. Our business are burdened with a lot of the cost of insurance.  The free market is not working. Removing the burden of excessive health care costs will spark entrepreneurs to step away from corporations and take the risk of self employment. We all benefit from a healthy society. Healthcare shouid be efficient and profitable, but all shouid have access to basic service. I really like bibicare in Israel, a hybrid public private system.

Opportunity:  agree with you here. Let’s get everyone access to education and skill development. Let the cream rise to the top.

god:  religion should be kept seperate from government. God does not play any role in how we govern.


Offline Will Morningstar

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 08:43:12 PM »
I am white, in my 50s, have money, live in a rural area and own guns. Why should I vote for repubs?

Also, the noted conservative philosopher Charles Taylor observed that "It's not true that conservatives are (by nature -- Ed.) against change; as conservatives, (being the party of order and duty --Ed.) are quite prepared to move with the times when the need for change is proven".

Offline FunkyZero

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 09:00:11 PM »
Funky Zero, thank you that was well stated. Prolly the best layout of ideals I have heard yet. But you did not convince me. I respect your views,  but let me try to respond to each.

Variables:  based upon demographics, I shouid be a Republican.  I am the stereotypical conservative.  When people look at me, they think Repub.

Non self centered voting patterns:  that is exactly why I vote dem. I vote for the betterment of all, not just me.  Interesting on how we both are motivated by this but vote opposite.

Gun ownership and the 2A:  i haven’t looked at or shot my guns in 13 years. I never fear for my safety, mainly because I choose to live in low density, high net worth, safe areas. Guns used to be a fun hobby and I bought quite a few. I hate the power the NRA hoLds over my rep and Senator, they are beholden to the NRA not we the people. That is my main problem with guns.

Taxes:  yeah they suck I sure pay my share. To me healthcare is a huge issue. Our business are burdened with a lot of the cost of insurance.  The free market is not working. Removing the burden of excessive health care costs will spark entrepreneurs to step away from corporations and take the risk of self employment. We all benefit from a healthy society. Healthcare shouid be efficient and profitable, but all shouid have access to basic service. I really like bibicare in Israel, a hybrid public private system.

Opportunity:  agree with you here. Let’s get everyone access to education and skill development. Let the cream rise to the top.

god:  religion should be kept seperate from government. God does not play any role in how we govern.

I appreciate the attempt at civility, but none of what you said even remotely aligns with my ideals or those of people who believe in sovereign freedom... and you fell back on false generalizations to justify pretty much ALL of your  "arguments"

1) You claim " I vote for the betterment of all", but leave out the part about you think you should decide who's wealth to seize by force, and then whom to then distribute it to. This does not pass the basic tests and fall into the spirit of American liberty and freedom. It is introductory communism.

2) Your views on guns and the NRA are based on false premise. I would suppose you strongly support labor unions, but then somehow take issue with free citizens pooling their money in the form of the NRA to help preserve their natural born freedom and rights by utilizing the actual legal system, and not resorting to sending death threats, nasty tweets , and DoXXing politicians like we commonly see from the left. This is disingenuous because it's based on one of the millions of falsehoods and misconceptions propagated by the left. The fact of the matter is, the NRA IS "the people". It's not some "evil corporation". They represent US.
Furthermore, applying your personal sense of safety levels, ie: "I don't need a gun because I feel perfectly safe" to other people is not an indicator of someone who supports individual freedoms in any way. It's YOU consciously deciding that you know better than other people and thinking your decision should be supreme, even overruling a mans freedom to decide for himself what he needs. I find this quite arrogant, and selfish.

3) You most certainly do not agree with me regarding the definition of "opportunity". Opportunity does not include providing anything to anyone through vehicles that consume the resources of others. It is not my burden to provide anyone else with "skills". If they want it, they can go get it themselves, and it's not within the realm of reasonable to expect that I should participate in such endeavors against my will.

4) I won't do the healthcare insurance argument with you. It is the mess it is as a direct RESULT of attempts top regulate control over the industry. Insurance and government overreach are the very reasons costs are so high. Your healthcare bills are not a basic public service. That is a commodity that you alone are responsible for. If you want help paying said bills, go find it yourself, but extracting said money from me and my children against our will and by gunpoint is not what free people support in any way.

5) Religion is already covered in The Constitution. There should be no argument here except for the fact that the left have attempted bastardization of the text by using it out of context for decades. There is no law banning religion FROM government. Not one.


Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 09:36:20 PM »
Let’s  continue

1. I believe you are discussing taxes. We are 300 million plus people without any more frontiers to explore or land to populate. . We are in this together, Everyman for himself does not work. Therefore we need government and services which we all fund. Sales, local, state and federal taxes are a fact of life. We just need to get rid of waste and improve the function of government.

2.  Happy to keep union money and nra money and their social interest money out of politics. All of It. I’ve was a union (united Steel Workers) for a few months while working a summer job, they gave me beer. I support the rights of workers to unionize if they choose to but prefer to not work with union shops. nra is all about the money. I prioritize my votes inversely proportional to the money a candidate receives from the NRA. My voice is much better reflected by corporations than a union or the nra. Corporations are people my friend.

4.Healthcare is ****ed up, we both agree. Everyone of us has an interest in solving the problem. All parties should agree on the goals we want to achieve and work together to solve them. Perhaps the Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, JPM team can lead the efforts. But we must default to a short term plan which covers as many as we can.

3.  There is a price for living here.

5.  Religion perverts civics. Keep it out.

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 02:10:36 AM »
You do you.  You don't have to pretend to be 'Questioning' or a possible convert to hang out here.  You just have to be civil and reasonably well-behaved.  There's a big chunk of collectivism in your exposition, and a big chunk of Libertarian in most of our outlooks, so no minds are going to be changing, but as long as everyone plays nice, that's cool.
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Offline Will Morningstar

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 08:01:48 AM »
You do you.  You don't have to pretend to be 'Questioning' or a possible convert to hang out here.  You just have to be civil and reasonably well-behaved.  There's a big chunk of collectivism in your exposition, and a big chunk of Libertarian in most of our outlooks, so no minds are going to be changing, but as long as everyone plays nice, that's cool.

+1. Well said. A Canadian Liberal might say, "Not necessarily intervention, but intervention if necessary".  (cf. Cdn. P.M. Lester B. Pearson ca.1965; as also paraphrased by P.M. P..E. Trudeau in re extraordinary application of wage and price controls. Liberals (and mainstream U.S. Democratics -- Ed.) take a more conservative view toward state intervention, as a cornerstone of Liberal principles is that any state intervention should enhance, not abrogate, the rights and freedoms of the individual. LibeRALS believe in LibERTY, and were and remain the original LiberTARians. (As distinct from Labour or Social Democrat(ic) parties, which look first to the needs of the many, and second to the rights of the individual -- Ed.)

Offline Eupher

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 02:20:15 PM »
Let’s  continue

1. I believe you are discussing taxes. We are 300 million plus people without any more frontiers to explore or land to populate. . We are in this together, Everyman for himself does not work. Therefore we need government and services which we all fund. Sales, local, state and federal taxes are a fact of life. We just need to get rid of waste and improve the function of government.

Just how to you plan to "get rid of waste and improve the function of government?" Haven't politicians been saying that for a couple hundred years? And where are we?

A Congress that can't get its head out of its ass. A judicial system that legislates from the bench. An executive branch that won't enforce the laws that are currently on the books.

So I ask again -- how are you going to get rid of waste and improve the function of government when it's dysfunctional as it is?

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2.  Happy to keep union money and nra money and their social interest money out of politics. All of It. I’ve was a union (united Steel Workers) for a few months while working a summer job, they gave me beer. I support the rights of workers to unionize if they choose to but prefer to not work with union shops. nra is all about the money. I prioritize my votes inversely proportional to the money a candidate receives from the NRA. My voice is much better reflected by corporations than a union or the nra. Corporations are people my friend.

It's a nice sentiment, but you probably forgot about Citizens United. It ain't goin' away, my friend.

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4.Healthcare is ****ed up, we both agree. Everyone of us has an interest in solving the problem. All parties should agree on the goals we want to achieve and work together to solve them. Perhaps the Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, JPM team can lead the efforts. But we must default to a short term plan which covers as many as we can.

Again, what's your plan? Besides the Utopian warm 'n fuzzy sentiment that is just more pablum. What goals do *we* want to achieve?

More shit-shoveling.  :whatever:

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3.  There is a price for living here.

Indeed there is. When was the last time you took in a family of illegals and kept them in your house?

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5.  Religion perverts civics. Keep it out.

Religion is part of the human experience. So is the lack of religion. If you don't like religion, don't practice it. But don't stifle those who do.

I really enjoy you guys. You make me laugh.
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Offline FunkyZero

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2018, 03:36:49 PM »
Just how to you plan to "get rid of waste and improve the function of government?" Haven't politicians been saying that for a couple hundred years? And where are we?


I gave it one honest shot. Not sure why, I know lefty.
The result was exactly what I expected...  didn't see a point in wasting 5 minutes doing it again. All that communist magic unicorn sh@* is just too much to deal with

Offline Eupher

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 03:40:09 PM »
I gave it one honest shot. Not sure why, I know lefty.
The result was exactly what I expected...  didn't see a point in wasting 5 minutes doing it again. All that communist magic unicorn sh@* is just too much to deal with

Well, I was taking a break from what I was doing and thought I'd state the obvious.

Mr. Shoe's sole is flapping.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 04:42:10 PM »
I gave it one honest shot. Not sure why, I know lefty.
The result was exactly what I expected...  didn't see a point in wasting 5 minutes doing it again. All that communist magic unicorn sh@* is just too much to deal with

Yeah, same here.  I figured it wasn't worth any more time after reading his list, it made it pretty clear the opening question wasn't actually serious.
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Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 06:47:37 PM »
No one has made a case. At least a few of you took my post seriously. Thanks.

Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 06:57:57 PM »
I gave it one honest shot. Not sure why, I know lefty.
The result was exactly what I expected...  didn't see a point in wasting 5 minutes doing it again. All that communist magic unicorn sh@* is just too much to deal with

Thank you for your 5 minutes.

Offline Will Morningstar

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 07:01:04 PM »
No one has made a case. At least a few of you took my post seriously. Thanks.

I thought you did well. You see, there are thoughtful, respectful people here. These are actual conservatives, not whatever's going on unchecked on that other site. They do deserve more viewers here, though.

Online TheShoe

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 07:40:42 PM »
If I had some constructive critism of this forum it would be to discuss more ideas and less about people. But that is not an incoming theme at similar forums.

Offline Eupher

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2018, 06:13:38 AM »
If I had some constructive critism of this forum it would be to discuss more ideas and less about people. But that is not an incoming theme at similar forums.

 :yawn:

You don't want to discuss ideas. You want to validate your opinions.

It ain't happenin'.
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Offline Texacon

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2018, 06:26:56 AM »
Let’s  continue
 

4.Healthcare is ****ed up, we both agree. Everyone of us has an interest in solving the problem. All parties should agree on the goals we want to achieve and work together to solve them. Perhaps the Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, JPM team can lead the efforts. But we must default to a short term plan which covers as many as we can.



You're wanting someone to make a case?  Here's one for you.

The Constitution of the United States of America has no provision for this.  No matter HOW good a plan you come up with.  If you can show me where this is constitutional, then we'll talk about what would be best for covering 'as many as we can', until then it is simply a moot point.

KC
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2018, 06:28:07 AM »
:yawn:

You don't want to discuss ideas. You want to validate your opinions.

It ain't happenin'.

 :cheersmate:

Most of us have pretty well-formed conceptualizations of our own philosophies, and since they're not all the same by any means, really don't feel the need to start a bunch of shit quarreling over unprovable ideological points.  We do love making fun of those crazy DU Trotskyites, Stalinists, and assorted freeloaders and head-cases squabbling and fulminating, though, it's kind of a favorite hobby of ours.   
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Offline Maverick1987

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2018, 08:22:08 PM »
This is why no one should ever take you seriously...

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With his hands, is President Trump secretly suggesting Nikki Haley is a 'p*ssy'?



Quote
8 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited

Yes. President Trump is secretly suggesting Nikki Haley is a 'p*ssy'.
2 votes (25%) TheShoe, orson

No. President Trump is not secretly suggesting Nikki Haley is a 'p*ssy'.
6 votes (75%) jimiray, foia, 357blackhawk, Grumpy Pickle, bruiserboy, batcat

1 Discussionist member did not wish to select any of the options provided. TheyLostTheirForums


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Offline Eupher

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2018, 02:10:49 AM »
FML.

No wonder I don't visit DU Jr. What a shithole.
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Offline FunkyZero

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2018, 09:41:45 AM »
FML.

No wonder I don't visit DU Jr. What a shithole.

yup

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Make your best pitch
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2018, 10:41:56 AM »
Let’s  continue

1. I believe you are discussing taxes. We are 300 million plus people without any more frontiers to explore or land to populate. . We are in this together, Everyman for himself does not work.

Why doesn't it work?  Individual freedoms and liberties beat collectivism every single time.


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Therefore we need government and services which we all fund.


The government services the federal government are supposed to provide are clearly outlined in the Constitution. 


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Sales, local, state and federal taxes are a fact of life.

But all of them need to be simplified and reformed.


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We just need to get rid of waste and improve the function of government.

The ways to truly do that are things you won't go for.  Things like dumping the notion of socialized medicine...eliminating the current welfare state that is what is truly bankrupting the nation and eliminating baseline budgeting and doing away with the omnibus budget.



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2.  Happy to keep union money and nra money and their social interest money out of politics. All of It. I’ve was a union (united Steel Workers) for a few months while working a summer job, they gave me beer. I support the rights of workers to unionize if they choose to but prefer to not work with union shops. nra is all about the money. I prioritize my votes inversely proportional to the money a candidate receives from the NRA. My voice is much better reflected by corporations than a union or the nra. Corporations are people my friend.


The unions have far more sway in politics than the NRA.  And the NRA's sole interest is preservation of the Second Amendment and the right of all people to keep and bear arms.

Funny that you're against any organization lobbying politicians to uphold the Constitution.

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4.Healthcare is ****ed up, we both agree. Everyone of us has an interest in solving the problem. All parties should agree on the goals we want to achieve and work together to solve them. Perhaps the Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, JPM team can lead the efforts. But we must default to a short term plan which covers as many as we can.


Here's the solution.  And it's real simple.  Don't let the government run healthcare.  Let the free market straighten things out.

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3.  There is a price for living here.


Yes there is...and only roughly 1% of the population ever pays that price for the rest of you.

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5.  Religion perverts civics. Keep it out.

That's typical progressive BS.  Religion is PART of civics...you need to quit picking and choosing which parts of the First Amendment and embrace all of it.

If you did and if you truly understood the establishment clause...you wouldn't say silly things like that.
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