Russians losing propaganda war

[dutch508]

edwardlindy  (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 10:56 AM
Original message
Russians losing propaganda war 
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3802645

The Bush administration appears to be trying to turn a failed military operation by Georgia into a successful diplomatic operation against Russia.

It is doing so by presenting the Russian actions as aggression and playing down the Georgian attack into South Ossetia on 7 August, which triggered the Russian operation.

Yet the evidence from South Ossetia about that attack indicates that it was extensive and damaging.
>
Human Rights Watch concluded after an on-the-ground inspection: "Witness accounts and the timing of the damage would point to Georgian fire accounting for much of the damage described ."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7562611.stm

 
So...

magellan  (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-15-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. The US put Saakashvili up to it
 ...knowing full and well what the Russian response would be, and determined to use the resulting fear of Russian aggression to persuade reluctant customers to take the US missile defense shield. And what do you know, Poland did just that.

That's my theory.

BUSH DID IT!!!

One DUmmie get it. Life is like a chess game with a rabid spider monkey.

igil  (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-15-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Only if you set the starting point correctly.
 And dislike the very idea of nuance.

Georgia breaks out of USSR. S. Ossetia, who wasn't the majority, decides to secede from Georgia. There's a bit of a war, with Russia helping their former allies the Ossetes with weapons and money. Chechen' tries the same thing, gets no support, is crushed.

Georgia engages in a bit of ethnic cleansing. Ossetians engage in a bit of ethnic cleansing. It has to stop, to be frozen until later when it might just thaw.

OSCE-approved peacekeeping operation, with Georgians, Ossetians, and Russians on rebel "Georgian" territory. Continual fire across borders. Georgian peacekeepers can't impose order, Russians and Ossetians don't allow Georgian troops to impose order. To maintain balance of power, S. Ossetia somehow always manages to have sufficient Russian weapons, even more than when peacekeeping operations started.

Georgia blockades S. Ossetia. S. Ossetia is even more reliant on Russia.

Georgia arms itself. It's also subject to a Russian blockade. And not only Ossetia is Russian-controlled, but Abkhazia, this time with no Georgian participation and the occasion batch of actual Russian troops. Similarly, "peacekeeping" seems to be synonymous with "increased military capability".

Russia pitches fit when Georgia cannot control all of its own territory from Muslim "fighters" helping "freedom fighters" in Ingushetia and Chechnya. Russia pitches fit when it's hinted that it control its territory to stop "freedom fighters" in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Both sides protest when rockets and gunfire cross Ossetian/Georgian border for 15 years. Nobody much cares except the Georgian and Russian media.

S. Ossetians put up signs "Nash president" for Putin--changed immediately to Medvedev. They're issued Russian passports and are, for all intents and purposes, Russian citizens. Just about every S. Ossetian ministry or government office is has an ethnic Russian chief or deputy, often transferred from a similar job inside Russia proper. They've achieved independence, Russia-style.

Portion of S. Ossetia that's majority-Georgian sets up independent sub-breakway region, when Georgians in S. Ossetia are discriminated against. Russia and S. Ossetia term the claim of discrimination against Georgians a provocation. But they don't bother to fight the sub-break-away territory, since it's not worthwhile, and truly small.

In July, parallel troop exercises: Russian in N. Ossetia, joint US/Georgian in Georgia. Increased provocations across Georgian/S. Ossetian "border", with Russian and S. Ossetian peacekeepers making sure that only Georgia's supposed to hold its fire. Having placed the S. Ossetian military checkpoints adjacent to civilian targets makes any Georgian response almost certain to involve civilians. Georgian checkpoints set up outside adjacent Georgian villages. But still the villages are hit.

In early-mid July, a Russian-controlled botnet is set up, ready to launch a cyberattack on Georgia. It stays quiet until Aug. 8.

In August, the rate and size of provocations from the S. Ossetian side increases. Georgia responds, Russia insists that S. Ossetia and Georgia be punished, and rejects the idea of Russia "peacemakers" in S. Ossetia having any control over the area. Not their problem.

NOW WE START KEEPING TRACK; WE MUST FORGET THE PAST.

Georgia attacks. 1500 Ossetians--or Russian citizens--are killed. Extensive devastation, genocide, innocents being gunned down, looting. All the damage is caused by Georgia, intentionally so.

Or the Georgians attack the government center and the hill with electrical/radio infructure in Tskhinvali, the damage reported by Western reporters, with only adjacent areas affected, and a bit of looting. Some Russian peacekeepers are killed. Russian tv says 2000 killed, refugees say maybe a few hundred, maybe less. HRW says, as of this date, < 100 killed.

Probably more Russian "peacemakers" were killed than S. Ossetian civilians and "peacekeepers" put together. Certainly more Georgians.

Perhaps the Russian peacekeepers shouldn't have set up their botnet in advance. Shouldn't have armed the S. Ossetians. And should have curtailed the allies attacks. Then they'd have some moral authority.

Personally, I still find the banner "Ossetian Year of Trans-Dniestria" to be revealing. In solidarity with a sister breakaway republic, the only thing in common is a large number of Russians and lots of Russian support, both sharpening ethnic differences, weakening a formerly forced Russian ally, and projecting Russian power, however trivially, outside of Russia. That makes a real man proud, apparently.


Now let's back up: "Who made the first move? Georgia. Ergo THEY were the aggressors."

"First move"? Would that be when S. Ossetia decided to break away? A bad thing for Chechnya, a good thing for S. Ossetia? Perhaps it was the Georgian response to the independence movement? Or the first to fire a volley after the peacekeepers moved in? Or the provocations a few days before the Georgian invasion? Do we count the fact that the Ossetians supported the Russians in 1921 against the Georgians as grounds for some emnity? Or whatever the Georgians did before that? Perhaps the Russian conquest of Georgia in the early 1800s?

"First move"?

Who gets to decide when we reset the clock? I don't. Why do you?

Logic? in DUmmieland? never gonna stand.

Sentinel Chicken  (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. Propaganda can't stop a tank.
 The right wing media can lie and spin their asses off but it isn't going to change facts on the ground. Putin has knocked the chip off the bully's shoulder and the bully doesn't know what to do about it. All he can do is turn up the volume on his propaganda machine.

theboss  (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-15-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Only DU can turn Putin into a hero
 This is absolute insanity.
 

No shit, tb.

Virginia Dare (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. The enemy of my enemy is my friend?..
 he's the only one with the balls to stand up to Bushco, so I guess that's why he's being glorified. I don't lose sight of what a cold blooded killer he is. That's what scares me so. I'm not so sure either Bush or Putin is playing with the full deck.

now, read that carfully. Virginia sides with the enemy rather than the US. In my book that makes her a traitor and I get to shoot her now.

Virginia Dare (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I will give Putin this over Bush...
 I think he has the interests of Russia more at heart than Bush has the interests of the U.S. Putin is just trying to gain an edge in power for Russia, Bush has done nothing but throw U.S. power away.

In the back of the head.

Sentinel Chicken  (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Do you really think that Bush's behavior over the last 7 1/2 years 
 hasn't affected Putin?

Do you think that our invasion and occupation of another country for the sole purpose of stealing their natural resources hasn't made everyone in the world sit up and take notice?

The war in Iraq and the use of former Soviet satellites in support of it makes the Russians nervous. Add in the aggressive steps the Georgians took toward their own Russian minority. Add in the current prosperity of Russia because of the escalation of oil prices (not to mention our own precarious state both economically and militarily) and you get the circumstances that we find ourselves in.

Under a Gore or a Kerry we wouldn't be in this mess and Putin likely wouldn't be doing what he's doing.

 
 

hogwyld  (1000+ posts)      Fri Aug-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Why do you hate other leaders
 that poke sticks in our Fuhrer's eye? While * is a criminal, at least Putin is a criminal that cares about his country.

[Carl]

Sometimes the idiocy really is just too much to take from those cretins.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Sentinel Chicken  (1000+ posts)       Fri Aug-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Do you really think that Bush's behavior over the last 7 1/2 years 
 hasn't affected Putin?

Do you think that our invasion and occupation of another country for the sole purpose of stealing their natural resources hasn't made everyone in the world sit up and take notice?

They're still peddling this tripe side-by-side with threads about why congress should not allow US oil companies to drill on US soil and offshore no matter how many people want it or how much the oil companies beg to make taxable revenue and employ US citizens.

[Airwolf]

DUmmieland needs to have a cleaning crew stop by and wash out the Stupid.

[Chris_]

DUmmieland needs to have a cleaning crew stop by and wash out the Stupid.

No can do.  They lost the 'Superfund' money for that project.

[Airwolf]

DUmmieland needs to have a cleaning crew stop by and wash out the Stupid.

No can do.  They lost the 'Superfund' money for that project.

Maybe if they hired Bob Geldorf to start one of his fundraisers?

[BlueStateSaint]

DUmmieland needs to have a cleaning crew stop by and wash out the Stupid.

No can do.  They lost the 'Superfund' money for that project.

Maybe if they hired Bob Geldorf to start one of his fundraisers?

He couldn't raise one-third of the money that would be required to properly fund all of the Superfund projects that are needed to clean up DU . . .

[Chris_]

DUmmieland needs to have a cleaning crew stop by and wash out the Stupid.

Then DU would be dripping wet and empty.