Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts) https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029053668
If Trump ordered a nuclear missile attack on North Korea would the military carry it out?
Oh, this should be good.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
4. This isn't a rhetorical question. Are you sure?
Members of the military are under no obligation to follow unlawful orders. I would add embodied in my question is the assertion that the attack would be out of the blue with no clear casus belli.
if you have to adjust your OP within the first 10 posts you've ****ed up the OP and not gotten the answer you wanted.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
13. I would tell you what you can do with your ad hominem attack but I don't want a hide. You're clearly not worth one.
They are not answering the way I want them too! [/DU]
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
29. I know what a rhetorical question, an ad hominem attack, and a pedant is.
And your pedantry is off putting and boring. I would say a lot more but you aren't worth a hide.
with-in 30 posts the DUmpmonkie insults multiple commentors still doesn't get the answer it wants...
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
12. The military would not be in the position of determining if THIS PARTICULAR ORDER was unlawful. It is NOT the same as a commander ordering a subordinate to, say, shoot civilians with a gun.
The military personnel manning the nuclear weapons aren't even above ground, many of them (silos and subs).
Star Member jberryhill (46,540 posts)
20. Are you joking? The president has sole discretionary launch authority. For the president to order the launch of nuclear weapons is not only a lawful order, but it is a mechanism upon which the entire credibility of the nuclear deterrent rests.
Any answer other than "yes" is destabilizing.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
32. Then why did Defense Secretary Schlesinger and Secretary Of State Kissinger place , Then why did Defense Secretary Schlesinger and Secretary Of State Kissinger place limitations on President Nixon's emergency orders including the order to launch nuclear missiles as he cracked under the pressure of Watergate?
OK- here's the real reason for the post...
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
54. Your question did not ask, "IF the SoD and the SoS put limitations......" In any case, they acted
illegally:
"His new secretary of defense, James R. Schlesinger, himself a hawkish Cold Warrior, instructed the military to divert any emergency orders — especially one involving nuclear weapons — to him or the secretary of state, Henry A. Kissinger.
It was a completely extralegal order, perhaps mutinous. But no one questioned it."
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/science/donald-trump-nuclear-codes.html?_r=0
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
57. You could have asked me to elaborate.
Just as you could have asked me to elaborate before suggesting I thought Donald Trump would not be within his rights to order a nuclear attack on North Korea if they attacked Hawaii.
WTF? You asked a very simple question and got an answer you didn't like so changed the parameters of teh question.
It would like me asking, 'Will this ball fall to the ground if I drop it?"
The answer is yeas, but I don't want that answer so I insult you and change the question to "In a strong wind?" You still answer yes so I further modify the question, "In Space?" and then insult you because you didn't ask me to clarify a very simple question. You ****.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
64. I gave my audience the respect of believing they were capable of drawing logical inferences...
I gave my audience the respect of believing they were capable of drawing logical inferences and making rational assumptions.
Mea culpa.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
78. The verbal portion of the SAT and GRE must have been really hard on some people.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
128. It is profoundly saddening you would join in insulting someone who has been unfailingly civil to you
It is profoundly saddening you would join in insulting someone who has been unfailingly civil to you thus proving that intelligence and wisdom aren't necessarily synonyms.
I will defer to my better angels, take the high road, and not respond in kind.
I feel like I am back in the primary wars. My nemeses are almost all gone. I'm still here.
You are a ****ing loon.
IronLionZion (17,391 posts)
3. No
You'd be surprised how many in our military leadership think he's an incompetent dangerous buffoon. He has very little respect from the military.
There is a process
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-nuclear-weapon-launch/
finally someone answers the way he wants...
Star Member jberryhill (46,540 posts)
46. So, at some point, do we have a coup? Thus completing our race to banana republic status?
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
49. If we are going to get there we might as well get there soon thus leaving more time to repair...
If we are going to get there we might as well get there soon thus leaving more time to repair the damage.
BTW, I would put the chances of a coup somewhere between slim and none.
I do believe somebody would intervene before Trump incinerated, say, Mexico City or Toronto.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
61. I understand all these caveats and that theoretically the president's powers in this area is ...
I understand all these caveats and that theoretically the president's powers in this area is absolute. I would add that I never suggested the president's hands should be tied when it comes to a legitimate attack as had been suggested in this thread. I just believe, that even in that scant twelve minutes, somebody would intervene if any president order a nuclear attack out of the blue and in a moment of pique.
Hopefully we don't get to that juncture.
Coventina (15,757 posts)
70. The entire military structure, and ESPECIALLY the nuclear aspect, is built around NOT questioning.
Here is what I learned at the Missile Museum:
The launch codes arrive.
They are double-checked by the two officers on duty.
Once verified as correct, the two officers turn the keys in the console.
That's it.
They don't even know where the missiles are going!
The ONLY thing that would stop the process is if the launch codes were somehow incorrect.
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
82. It's a matter of the POTUS's having the codes. PERIOD.
Star Member MFM008 (10,226 posts)
5. Perhaps one
Would put an end to maggots reign of error once and for sll.
of course, you realize now that DUmpmonkiez are calling for a military coups complete with the assassination of the POTUS...
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
9. Yes. It is what they are trained to do. Would you prefer the military question the order, while missiles might be on their way here (or Hawaii, Japan, S. Korea, etc.)?
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
52. Nice strawman. The assertion embodied in my question is the attack is out of the blue.
No sane person would argue an individual or a state is not within his or her right to exercise self defense.
Your question was straight forward with out your further additions. Would the military follow orders of teh president. Yes.
"THATS NOT WHAT I WANT TO HEAR!!!"
Star Member liberalmuse (16,526 posts)
10. Someone predicted Trump will start a war tomorrow.
I wouldn't be surprised at anything right now. Trump is cornered and completely off his nut.
http://newzmagazine.com/2017/04/25/texas-psychic-says-ww3-coming-soon-reveals-exact-date/
Disclaimer: I don't believe in psychics, but came across this awhile back and thought it was...interesting, especially considering how crazy Trump is.
yeah... May 12th is the new war day by DUmpmonkiez' logic. Let's see how well that prediction goes. So far- they are batting 0%
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
17. I was told they would follow the orders because the system was designed for "speed and accuracy."
Now I am being told there can be a launch only after deliberations. These two statements are mutually exclusive.
And for good measure a straw man was thrown in that I was suggesting a president wouldn't be well within his or her rights to respond to any kind of military attack with proportional force. The assertion embodied in my question is the attack would be out of the blue.
You idiot. There is no chance that Trump suddenly says while sitting on a couch in the west wing, 'LAUNCH THE MISSILES AT KOREA!" and suddenly 100 nukes are in the air. At the very least there is discussion before the launch- you ****ing idiot.
Star Member smirkymonkey (22,375 posts)
26. You don't think they would make an exception considering the fact that Trump is clearly a madman?
There are orders and then there is potential global nuclear annihilation. Even the most devoted officers are not unthinking, unfeeling robots. They must at some point stop to weigh the enormity of their actions.
Star Member RKP5637 (44,841 posts)
35. Who would discuss this before he entered the codes? Could he be just alone one night and
for whatever insane reason just enter the codes without any prior discussion with others?
Star Member RKP5637 (44,841 posts)
55. My gut feeling, right or wrong, is this is just going to get more deranged relative to him
making the call. Really scary times. It's far too much power in one person's hands.
unless it is Hillary then I bet you ****ing retards would be happy as punch she launches on whomever.
Star Member jberryhill (46,540 posts)
25. Deliberations with whom?
The President is the Commander In Chief.
Our system is expressly designed to place ultimate authority over military action in the hands of a civilian.
Limitations such as the War Powers Act, etc., give the president a free hand in initiating military action. These limitations were intended not to bog us down in an unwanted foreign adventure for a prolonged period, but certainly do not limit the president's discretion to act in what he or she alone perceives as an imminent threat or action.
The absence of deliberations is itself part of the deterrence doctrine. With deliberations of defined parties, there can be a decapitation attack in which communications or individuals in the chain are disrupted, and command and control is taken out. From the match that lights the fuse to the black box, the system is designed to be an ultra reliable and secure method to vest that power in one pair of tiny hands.
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
36. "I am being told..." by whom? The deliberations are within the OO. "Out of the blue" is NOT FOR THE
MILITARY TO DECIDE.
PLEASE try to grasp this; it is simplicity itself. The personnel at the launch sites have been vetted; they are not questioners, rebels, slackers, cranks, pacifists, or mental deficients. They are all psychologically prepared to accept their and the world's fate, and perform their sworn duty.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
39. I was told in Post 15 there would be deliberations pursuant to the order.
Why did Secretaries Kissinger and Nixon put checks on Nixon as he slipped into Watergate madness.
If the absolutist position is correct he can order a nuclear attack on Canada and Mexico this morning and the military would carry it out. Surely no sentient person believe such an order would be complied with
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
41. You misread. The word used is "before," not the term "pursuant to." As in, the POTUS and advisors
will have deliberated BEFORE THE ORDER.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
45. The assertion embodied in my question it the attack is out of the blue.
If the attack is out of the blue how can there be deliberations?
Would they follow an order to launch a nuclear attack on Canada ? the United Kingdom ? Mexico?
That sounds absurd on it face but I am not the one arguing the president's ability to launch a nuclear attack on any one is absolute.
you are (and I am being redundant) a ****ing retard.
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
65. OMG. It wouldn't be "out of the blue" TO THE POTUS, FGS!! HE COULD DELIBERATE. Are you being
deliberately obtuse now?
Because this really is high-school level stuff, maybe even elementary.
Star Member DemocratSinceBirth (80,383 posts)
75. What's your point?
If he has a casus belli he has every right to attack. You created a strawman when you said that I said he would be outside his rights to respond to a nuclear attack on Hawaii.
In the interest of comity I will ignore your puerile epithets, for now.
Star Member Blaukraut (4,247 posts)
16. At this point, no. He's clearly insane.
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
38. Were you ever in the US Military?
Star Member Blaukraut (4,247 posts)
43. My husband served 22 years in the AF and is now a GS 12 at Hanscom, so kinda?
No. the answer to you being in the military is no.
Star Member WinkyDink (47,018 posts)
92. Do you think he ever once seriously considered disobeying an order? For one single second?
Star Member Blaukraut (4,247 posts)
95. This particular disobedience would have been way above his pay grade
The only person who can disobey is Secretary of Defense under the National Command Authority. He has to give secondary confirmation of the code.
No shit. They (including your husband) would launch.
Star Member yurbud (37,962 posts)
27. No. People in the military aren't robots. The order would be stopped before it got to the silo
Star Member yurbud (37,962 posts)
129. I have known a fair number of military people including a couple of launch officers the job requires a degree of intelligence in addition to a willingness to kill millions of people.
Someone in the chain of command might have noticed the commander in chief isn't trustworthy of the title for this decision.
Star Member treestar (67,345 posts)
108. Well now we should change that
Now that we know we can elect a buffoon. Nothing should be ABSOLUTE. It's a big mistake if we let any one person have that kind of power. Now that we've seen that an insane person can get into the office, we need that changed.
Jim Dandy (221 posts)
112. Yes, and besides Mike Pence would back it up.
Pence sees it as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
ElementaryPenguin (6,644 posts)
131. No. And I don't believe he's been given the real nuclear codes.
WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY GIVE THEM TO HIM??
Would YOU give them to him? Who doesn't know that the guy certifiably NUTS??
How would they get caught - how would he be on to them not giving him the real nuclear codes, unless he tried to use them - and how would he explain/justify that?
So I refuse to believe that he has them, which is probably the only reason I'm able to sleep at night.
now that is a whole bunch of crazy in one post.
