I wonder if he gave warning shots first.: How DU sees the 2nd Amendment

[dutch508]

Star Member riversedge (31,769 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028861876

Three burglars entered an Oklahoma home. The owners son opened fire with an AR-15, deputies say.

These kids did wrong-very wrong. And the young women who turned herself in. 3 young lives gone and one probably facing long prison term.

Something seems out of place here. Self defense says the article. I wonder if he gave warning shots first. Just seems so horrible.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/28/three-burglars-entered-an-oklahoma-home-the-owners-son-opened-fire-with-an-ar-15-deputies-say/?tid=pm_national_pop&utm_term=.00835d171b99


By Ben Guarino March 28 at 2:52 AM

Law enforcement officers investigate the scene of a failed robbery that led to the death of three men who broke into the house in Broken Arrow, Okla. (Ian Maule/Tulsa World via AP)

Gunfire rang out Monday afternoon in a home in Broken Arrow, an Oklahoma city 15 miles southeast of Tulsa. Three intruders were killed after the son of the homeowner fired a semiautomatic rifle in what local law enforcement officers later described as an act of self-defense, though their investigation remains open.

The intruders — a 16-year-old, a 17-year-old and a man thought to be 18 or 19 — had smashed open the back door of the house, the Wagoner County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement posted to Facebook. Their plan was burglary, authorities said.

They wore gloves, masks and all-black clothes, Wagoner County Deputy Nick Mahoney told Tulsa World. Two of the teenagers were armed, one with a knife and the other with brass knuckles.

The trio reportedly exchanged words with the 23-year-old son of the homeowner, whose name has also not been released. He fired on them with an AR-15, a popular semiautomatic rifle, officials told Fox 23....................



http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/three-dead-after-broken-arrow-area-homeowner-s-son-shoots/article_64c15c80-0019-56d6-9322-c1b93c0ff5d0.html

.......................The homeowner and the son, who reportedly did not know the intruders, went to the Wagoner County Sheriff’s Office to submit formal statements. Mahoney said the shootings appear to have been in self-defense, but he clarified that the case will remain under investigation for some time.

The fatal shootings could be viewed by prosecutors as falling under Oklahoma’s “Make My Day” law, which says a resident has the right to use deadly force if an intruder has entered or is in the process of entering the resident’s home.

So- criminals break into a home and are shot dead by the son. Of course DUmpmonkiez cry about three lives that were being turned around...

HopeAgain (452 posts)
1. And we thought they were barbaric in medeivel times Muslim Countries...when they would only cut your hand off for theft.

Guns only beget more guns...

 

Star Member lostnfound (10,789 posts)
22. One with a knife and the other with brass knuckles

It sounds like a home invasion but without the usual guns.

I was curious whether there have been home invasions in broken arrow before. I found this old story from 2012 – – but these people would've been older by now.

http://www.newson6.com/story/16973919/five-arrested-in-broken-arrow-after-armed-home-invasion

 

Star Member ileus (15,031 posts)
210. How do you know their intent was theft?

 

Star Member bigtree (67,019 posts)
5. I'm a fervent gun control advocate...but I can't put myself in the place of folks facing three intruders, 2 apparently armed, and conclude that the homeowner was wrong here.

How could the residents be certain that their own lives weren't in immediate jeopardy?

no shit.

Jonny Appleseed (545 posts)
67. Justified; but probably a sociopath that took pleasure in his license to murder 3 people under the umbrella of "justification". It'd be hard for me (and I would hope most people living in a civilized society) to shoot to kill anyone, including home invaders. I'd aim for the legs or fire warning shots. Maybe I'd kill one person from adrenaline but that's about it.

you are a ****ing idiot.

nil desperandum (579 posts)
129. Warning shots and aiming for legs?

No class will train you for that.

I've unfortunately been in this situation myself, I'm hopeful I'm not a sociopath.

As an infantry soldier, I was military trained to use the firearm that I used to defend myself.

You follow your training, no one is ever trained to fire at legs...it makes no sense because if you have no idea what your opponent has for a weapon you fire at center mass the largest target possible that way if you miss vertically or horizontally there is still a good chance you will hit something on the target periphery.

You are awakened from a sound sleep, you retrieve your weapon and you announce that you are armed the attacker says he will take your weapon from you and end you and everyone in the house. It's dark and you have no idea what they have or do not have for a weapon. You fire two shots at center mass and the third at the head, then you search every inch of your home to make sure he was alone. Less than 10 seconds has passed during this encounter. Your life and someone else's has been changed forever. No one wishes for that, but it's a better outcome than you and your family being killed so someone can take your stuff and sell it for drugs or profit or whatever.

Jonny Appleseed (545 posts)
134. The military trains you to overcome empathy in the line of fire and the social conditioning we have towards taking a life.

That's a perfectly justified response for you, but someone having the response of a soldier without the rigorous training it took to condition that response is unnatural.

 

AtheistCrusader (30,591 posts)
131. Warning shots are illegal. Shooting at the legs is employing deadly force without justification. You hit the femoral artery, they have ~30 seconds to a minute. And you will be found in court to have used deadly force without justification, because you tried to use 'non lethal' deadly force.

Please for ****s sake actually educate yourself on how self defense works, and how it plays out in court.

Oneironaut (1,799 posts)
212. "Aim for the legs" is a Hollywoodism

Nobody actually ever does that or advises trying. Hitting a target with a gun is actually much more difficult than Hollywood shows it. Trying to just wound someone with a gun is a great way to miss and get yourself killed.

If someone is in your house and armed, you're not going to be thinking, "I'll aim at their feet just wound them." You would want to stop the threat and stop your attacker before they kill you. If you need to kill them to do that, then that's their fault for attacking you, not yours.

but like we've all realized- DUmpmoniez live in the Hollywood version of reality.

janterry (122 posts)
6. If they exchanged words

I wonder why he didn't allow them to leave. Get out I have a gun seems like the obvious thing to say.........was anyone shot in the back (trying to escape)?

 

TexasMommaWithAHat (3,141 posts)
10. THREE intruders?

Entering with a knife, brass knuckles, wearing all black and face masks?

I would have been terrified.

And I can't say I'm sorry that they are dead, since they won't be able to terrify anyone else. By the way, if these guys knew the homeowner's son, they were probably intent on doing him serious harm.

Jonny Appleseed (545 posts)
69. Shooting at them might get you killed too.

"That ****er killed Bob! But now he's outta ammo! Let's torture him and his family to death and burn their house to the ground!"
rather than
"Bob let's get the **** outta here! It's not worth it, he has an assault rifle!"

Hindsight and speculation are completely arbitrary.

Star Member Hoyt (29,185 posts)
14. Callous gunners will say you don't fire warning shots. I don't know. I can't see that the home owner's son did anything legally wrong. When people enter your house, I think the home owner has to have the benefit of any doubt. But, too many people shoot in these cases when it could be handled differently. Then again, I wasn't there. Daddy probably trained his kid to open fire, that guns are necessary to become a man or some such BS, and that George Zimmerman is a role model.

Note -- If they find out he shot one in the back fleeing, that's another story. The real tragedy is that these kids broke into the house in the first place. They probably knew there were guns there.

Star Member Hoyt (29,185 posts)
34. If he's out in the front yard face down, homeowner probably shot him running. That's wrong.

But, good point on the gun in a house more likely to end up a tragedy among the family.

"shoot in the back" comes from discussions right here on DU where a number of gunners claimed if someone steals there "stuff," they have every right to shoot them fleeing.

Star Member Hoyt (29,185 posts)
127. And "self-defense experts" are in the business of teaching people how to kill, not

really handle situations without shooting. The "students" don't want to hear anything other than "shoot em center mass."

My guess is, some kind of warning (not necessary a "shot") like yelling something like, "I've got a rifle, here's what is sounds like when I ram ammo into the receiver, and I'm gonna shoot your ass unless you get out right now," probably would have caused our underarmed burglars to run to the hills. If not, you just shoot em when they come through the bedroom door. Let em steal the TV and stuff, that can be replaced.

I think that would have worked better. But, again I was not there. The son was and had to handle things as best he could. I can't fault him from what we know now.

Girard442 (500 posts)
15. Sounds like the home invaders were serious bad guys but...

...I wouldn't like to live next to someone who thinks the best solution to a nasty situation is to smoke everybody he sees.

Star Member GulfCoast66 (1,716 posts)
45. The real tragedy here

Is that 3 people in the prime of their lives feel the need to resort to armed forced entry into a home.

Anyone care to guess the state of support of children and adolescents in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma?

Think they have great schools where children are taught to their potential. Or services for the less privileged to make up for the lack of opportunities they are offered by their families? Generous food stamp and school lunch and after school meals to help the poor spend their scant resources on something to help improve their lot long term. A high minimum wage that actually facilitates class movement?

You think the well off devote time and money to those less privileged and teach their kids we are all the same.

I would guess no to all of the above. But I bet they all love Jesus and the NRA.

Not excusing what they did. I own and use guns. If 3 armed people broke into my house I would not hesitate to shoot as I have a family to protect.

But it is too bad so much of our society is still rooted in Calvinist think about sinners having to pay a price.

Star Member safeinOhio (11,696 posts)
71. Know a guy that shot an intruder and killed him.

Terrible mess cleaning up all of that blood. Still spent $10k on lawyers, Has nightmares and lots of calls from the intruders' friends saying they are going to get him.

I agree with actions to save your life and family,but start with cheap home security. For a couple hundred bucks, way less than an AR-15. Cameras, fortified doors and windows, a panic alarm and a safe room that you can get everyone in with a phone to call police. Thats where I keep my fire arms unloaded and in a safe. If anyone was to try and kick in the door on my safe room, 911 would have everything recorded and there would be no questions in court. To be safe, it begins way before they get in the house. If this is random, no drugs or gangs, robbers look for the easy one and don't want to stick around when the motion lights come on and the alarms start screaming.

Way better to be smart than be a tuff guy.

Orsino (34,371 posts)
192. The witnesses to anything nefarious are likely dead.

That's my main beef.

An AR-15 is a suboptimal weapon for home defense. The possession of such a thing, and that it could be loaded and brought to bear in the situation described speaks to me of an eagerness to use it. That's my other beef, and it may remain only a suspicion--again, because the shooter ensured that no one is likely to testify otherwise.

 

Star Member sarisataka (7,803 posts)
110. This is why we need a database of all gun owners. It would allow proper risk management that could have saved three lives. They could have selected an unarmed house where folks won't fight back when you wave a knife at them and a couple taps with the brass knucks will ensure they remain cowed. Or at least armed up to be prepared for encountering some Rambo wannabe armed for war.

 

Star Member tammywammy (25,698 posts)
144. Apparently to some the homeowner was a blood thirsty savage that couldn't wait to kill

He was just aching for three people to break into his house so he could fulfill his murderous rage.

Or something.

What a strange tread.

Star Member obamanut2012 (12,523 posts)
160. Defsense against home invasion is one thing, this is murder

One suspect was shot in the back in the driveway while fleeing.

That is murder.

and here we go with the fake news shit. No one was shot in the back as they tried to get away, ****stick. All three were shot in the house they broke into- only one was able to run away until he too died. Good shooting, kid.

[FaC]

Blue_Tires (47,145 posts)
203. Wait just a *******ed minute

Officials say a fourth suspect will likely face charges related to the incident. The 21-year-old female, who deputies say was the getaway driver, went into police custody. She was later identified as Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez. She was eventually booked on three complaints of first-degree murder and three complaints of first-degree burglary. In Oklahoma, those believed to be committing a felony that results in a death can face murder charges, even if they did not actually kill anyone.

http://www.fox23.com/news/three-killed-in-wagoner-county-shooting/506461840

So she's being charged with a triple homicide because her partners got killed?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Of course she is being charged with murder you idiot. She was a willing participant in a crime where three people (aka idiots) died. The fact that the dead guys were her accomplices is immaterial.

[FlaGator]

Real simple here. You break in to my home and you will be shot, no ifs, ands or buts about it. I will not take pleasure in the act and I'll have a hard time living with it after the fact but knowing all that won't change my response. I am in no way required to give a warning in my home and one will not be forth coming.

[freedumb2003b]

The second guy got one warning shot.  The third guy got two.

Unfortunate they did not avail themselves of the opportunity afforded.

As for the DUmp monkeys thinking this is "bad" -- I invite any and all lurkers with bad intent to go ahead and invade said DUmmie's homes, assault said dummies and steal the Dummies' stash.

I also caution you bad intenters: We are just as armed as the guy in the article.  The Dummies?  Gun free zone!

(on edit)

Here is a GREAT target:

Star Member sarisataka (7,803 posts)
110. This is why we need a database of all gun owners. It would allow proper risk management that could have saved three lives. They could have selected an unarmed house where folks won't fight back when you wave a knife at them and a couple taps with the brass knucks will ensure they remain cowed. Or at least armed up to be prepared for encountering some Rambo wannabe armed for war.

[FaC]

Just a comment on the overall thread - in my mind it is bringing out the fact that underneath their civilized veneer half or more of the DUmmies are bloodthirsty according to their own standards. It seems that a lot of them don't have any problem with what happened.

I guess it is another case of "Do what I say, not what I do"...

[SVPete]

Star Member lostnfound (10,789 posts)
22. ...
I was curious whether there have been home invasions in broken arrow before.

Try reading the WashPost article!

Several nearby homes had been burglarized in recent weeks, neighbor Leon Simmons told KOTV-TV. Authorities said they could not speculate as to whether this incident was related to the others.

So:

* There had been a rash of burglaries in the area;

* These burglars broke into the home;

* Two of these burglars were armed and capable of deadly force;

* The man who killed the burglars "exchanged words" (aka verbal warning) with the burglars before shooting them;

* Firing a "warning shot" would have damaged the house, possibly damaged another house when the bullet fell to earth, and might even have injured a neighbor.

[thundley4]

Jonny Appleseed (545 posts)
69. Shooting at them might get you killed too.

"That ****er killed Bob! But now he's outta ammo! Let's torture him and his family to death and burn their house to the ground!"
rather than
"Bob let's get the **** outta here! It's not worth it, he has an assault rifle!"

Hindsight and speculation are completely arbitrary.

That is why civilized gun owners are against magazine limits. We know that thugs like these don't travel alone in most cases. Multiple shots for multiple threats.

[DumbAss Tanker]

You knock in my door, I'm gonna assume your are equipped and psyched to take on anybody inside with deadly force, and as soon as you come inside it's on like Donkey Kong.

[67 Rover]

Star Member GulfCoast66 (1,716 posts)
45. I would guess no to all of the above. But I bet they all love Jesus and the NRA. 

AMEN! 

Jonny Appleseed (545 posts)
67. Justified; but probably a sociopath that took pleasure in his license to murder 3 people under the umbrella of "justification". It'd be hard for me (and I would hope most people living in a civilized society) to shoot to kill anyone, including home invaders. I'd aim for the legs or fire warning shots. Maybe I'd kill one person from adrenaline but that's about it.

Why waste time on the legs when you can shoot the knife or Brass knuckles out of his hand?  Idiot.  

Star Member Hoyt (29,185 posts)
127. And "self-defense experts" are in the business of teaching people how to kill, not

really handle situations without shooting. The "students" don't want to hear anything other than "shoot em center mass."

My guess is, some kind of warning (not necessary a "shot") like yelling something like, "I've got a rifle, here's what is sounds like when I ram ammo into the receiver, and I'm gonna shoot your ass unless you get out right now," probably would have caused our underarmed burglars to run to the hills. If not, you just shoot em when they come through the bedroom door. Let em steal the TV and stuff, that can be replaced.

I think that would have worked better. But, again I was not there. The son was and had to handle things as best he could. I can't fault him from what we know now.

Advantage home intruders, they now know your location and what you have.  You on the other hand know nothing about how many, what they have or where they all are.  Brilliant!

[SVPete]

Star Member Hoyt (29,185 posts)
127. And "self-defense experts" are in the business of teaching people how to kill, not

really handle situations without shooting. The "students" don't want to hear anything other than "shoot em center mass."

Just about ANY self-defense or martial arts training teaches about preventing or minimizing the need to defend oneself. BUT if shooting in self-defense is necessary (in the judgment of the one shooting, of course), aiming anywhere other than middle-of-target increases the risk of missing or an insignificant (to the one hit) wound and the consequences that would follow. That's just common sense (which is why "Hoyt" condemns it).

"Hoyt" and a whole bunch of DU-folk need to stop watching so many stupid TV shows and movies.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

Of course, as usual, the DUmmies are weeping and mourning over the armed criminals and openly condemning the young man who acted to save his own life and the lives of his family.
Defending lawless scum and demonizing decent people are hallmark tenets of ultra- liberalism.
Also of course, GulfCoast66 tries to spin it into pushing his brainless political agenda. The old "Sure, what they did was wrong, but it's REALLY all society's fault!" technique that ultra- liberals, especially ultra- liberal defense attorneys, love using to try and justify the heinous actions of lawless scum. Never mind all of the innumerable people born into similarly bad situations who DON'T break into other people's houses with weapons intent on robbing and probably killing them!

"Star Member ileus (15,031 posts)
210. How do you know their intent was theft?"
As a great man once said,
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA39ze0i7Fw[/youtube]

[Mr Mannn]

the liberals at DI love to quote an article that states liberals are buying guns now that Trump is thew Prez...like it makes them all bada$$ or something. an untrained liberal with a gun is not a revolutionary army.

it seems libs wanting revolution depend on others to fight for them. expecting the army to suddenly turn progressive, or gang bangers to stop shooting sideways and stand in the face of incoming fire.
the revolution may not be televised...but it will be short.

this is why I don't believe Calexit. I don't believe liberals are motivated to fight for independence.

[wasp69]

I am in no way required to give a warning in my home and one will not be forth coming.

Yep, spot on.

The only "warning" you get at my house is the locked door.  Ignore that one at your own peril.

[BattleHymn]

Star Member ileus (15,031 posts)
210. How do you know their intent was theft?

Mens rea mean anything to you, Dumpshit?

[BlueStateSaint]

Yep, spot on.

The only "warning" you get at my house is the locked door.  Ignore that one at your own peril.

And, if you break the door down despite the presence of the locked deadbolt, I just might assume that your intentions aren't to come in for tea and crumpets, and act accordingly.  In the PRNY, one can use deadly force in their home if a perpetrator is coming in.  Plus, my wife and daughter are worth me defending them with deadly force.

[Delmar]

Response to riversedge (Original post)Tue Mar 28, 2017, 05:27 PM
Star Member stevenleser (30,358 posts)
268. I'm a big gun control advocate. I won't lose any sleep over what happened in this situation.

People who commit armed robbery should understand they could easily end up dead for their pursuits.

The problem with this when you take it to the conclusion pro-gun folks want, i.e. where everyone is armed is, folks who then commit robberies and other crimes will be prepared to, and likely will, shoot everyone they see upon break in.

This stupidity is coming from one of the high profile primitives--one of their thought leaders.

[Ogre]

I don't understand, DUmmies are omnipotent enough to know exactly what a gun owner is thinking when they exercise their right to defend their family from a home invasion, but.......they have absolutely no idea why radicalized members of the religion of peace and tolerance do what they do.  Is it just me, or does anyone else note this odd anomaly in DUmmie omnipotence?

[landofconfusion80]

I don't understand, DUmmies are omnipotent enough to know exactly what a gun owner is thinking when they exercise their right to defend their family from a home invasion, but.......they have absolutely no idea why radicalized members of the religion of peace and tolerance do what they do.  Is it just me, or does anyone else note this odd anomaly in DUmmie omnipotence?

Well, the gun owner, by virtue of owning a gun is a knuckle dragging neanderthal.  The muslim, by beating women and humping camels is of a much higher order.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[I_B_Perky]

Blue_Tires (47,145 posts)
203. Wait just a *******ed minute

Officials say a fourth suspect will likely face charges related to the incident. The 21-year-old female, who deputies say was the getaway driver, went into police custody. She was later identified as Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez. She was eventually booked on three complaints of first-degree murder and three complaints of first-degree burglary. In Oklahoma, those believed to be committing a felony that results in a death can face murder charges, even if they did not actually kill anyone.

http://www.fox23.com/news/three-killed-in-wagoner-county-shooting/506461840

So she's being charged with a triple homicide because her partners got killed?

So you dummies, the smartest bestest brainiacs in the world, never heard of the felony murder law?  I learned that in 10th grade civil and criminal justice.   

Since you never have I will explain it to you. Commit a felony and someone dies during the commission of said felony, don't matter from what, then you get charged with murder.  I recall some NYC pavement ape breaking into someone's apt, owner had a fatal heart attack during the break in, and said pavement ape is now in Attica serving life without parole.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

it seems libs wanting revolution depend on others to fight for them. expecting the army to suddenly turn progressive, or gang bangers to stop shooting sideways and stand in the face of incoming fire.

It's rather funny, I remember around 2009 or so having these long drawn- out arguments on Youtube with this ultra- Communist (I'm not exaggerating or using hyperbole by saying this, he openly professed Communism) douchebag who used to troll conservative vids. In an attempt to I guess try and scare us, he used to often promise that he was working on the latter of what you claim, that he and his "Comrades" were supposedly recruiting gangbangers and "Educating" them to, among other things, be the foot soldiers of his planned glorious Communist Revolution to take over the US.
Of course, this was years ago, and I have yet to hear of Communist uprisings using sideways- shooting bangers taking control of our country, so I'm guessing that (Big surprise) he was just another Internet tough guy, or a miserable failure, or both.

[tuolumnejim]

Just about ANY self-defense or martial arts training teaches about preventing or minimizing the need to defend oneself. BUT if shooting in self-defense is necessary (in the judgment of the one shooting, of course), aiming anywhere other than middle-of-target increases the risk of missing or an insignificant (to the one hit) wound and the consequences that would follow. That's just common sense (which is why "Hoyt" condemns it).

"Hoyt" and a whole bunch of DU-folk need to stop watching so many stupid TV shows and movies.

Well that's not the only reason, remember he's an ex armed robber. 

[USA4ME]

riversedge

I wonder if he gave warning shots first.

That's the responsibility of those breaking in. A statement along the lines of "You know, I would be negligent by not warning that if we break into someone's house, we could get shot" from one of the 3 should be sufficient.

.

[BamaMoose]

300+ posts on this thread critiquing the homeowner's actions while protecting himself.  Meanwhile, if the criminals broke in and stabbed the homeowner to death, it wouldn't even be a blip on their screens.  Certainly shows where their priorities are.

[FiddyBeowulf]

Response to riversedge (Original post)Tue Mar 28, 2017, 05:27 PM
Star Member stevenleser (30,358 posts)
268. I'm a big gun control advocate. I won't lose any sleep over what happened in this situation.

People who commit armed robbery should understand they could easily end up dead for their pursuits.

The problem with this when you take it to the conclusion pro-gun folks want, i.e. where everyone is armed is, folks who then commit robberies and other crimes will be prepared to, and likely will, shoot everyone they see upon break in.

Or...the number of robberies will go down because the risk of getting shot and killed has gone up. The criminals will focus more on businesses that advertise they and their clientèle are not armed.

[SVPete]

Well that's not the only reason, remember he's an ex armed robber. 

"Hoyt" has a criminal conviction? Wasn't aware of that. I can understand an ex-con resenting intended victims being armed.