Author Topic: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?  (Read 13603 times)

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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2008, 09:56:56 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.
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Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2008, 09:59:44 PM »

And to be perfectly clear, because I think Phil cocked this up a bit, the First and Only Cause did not create this illusion.  We did.  God can't create anything that isn't perfect therefore we are, in fact, perfect already, it is simply that we don't think we are.  And because we have all the creative power of God behind our thoughts, we can keep this illusion going a long, long time.  Until we get tired of it and decide to return home.  Which we never left but we think we did so we manufacture the evidence that we are somewhere other than where we are.

This is why the world appears to be mad.  But something that does not exist cannot be mad.

Perfection does not exist. It is an entirely abstract concept with no bearing whatsoever on reality.
Actually, you have it backward, it is imperfection that not only does not exist, but cannot exist.  And further, what you call reality is an illusion that has no actual bearing on real reality, which in reality the only existence I can have is in God.  I not only do I not exist here, but I cannot exist here because there is no here. But there is no point in arguing it because eventually you will see it.  Everybody does.  This is the beauty of perfection.

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite." --William Blake

In time, eventually everybody's doors do get cleansed but in actual fact, they already are.  It's already over.  Everybody is "saved," so to speak.  This is why nothing real can be threatened.
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2008, 09:59:51 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI

Skip to 2:00 if you don't want to watch entire interview.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:04:32 PM by The Night Owl »
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Offline The Night Owl

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2008, 10:02:43 PM »
Actually, you have it backward, it is imperfection that not only does not exist, but cannot exist.  And further, what you call reality is an illusion that has no actual bearing on real reality, which in reality the only existence I can have is in God.  I not only do I not exist here, but I cannot exist here because there is no here. But there is no point in arguing it because eventually you will see it.  Everybody does.  This is the beauty of perfection.

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite." --William Blake

In time, eventually everybody's doors do get cleansed but in actual fact, they already are.  It's already over.  Everybody is "saved," so to speak.  This is why nothing real can be threatened.

I would love to respond to your post, but I'm going to respect WE's request. Bye.
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Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2008, 10:03:48 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI
Well, if this is the theory being ridiculed today, in 10-20 years this is very likely the one to be thought of as nearly absolutely true.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
― Homer, The Odyssey

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2008, 10:08:36 PM »
Actually, you have it backward, it is imperfection that not only does not exist, but cannot exist.  And further, what you call reality is an illusion that has no actual bearing on real reality, which in reality the only existence I can have is in God.  I not only do I not exist here, but I cannot exist here because there is no here. But there is no point in arguing it because eventually you will see it.  Everybody does.  This is the beauty of perfection.

"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite." --William Blake

In time, eventually everybody's doors do get cleansed but in actual fact, they already are.  It's already over.  Everybody is "saved," so to speak.  This is why nothing real can be threatened.

I would love to respond to your post, but I'm going to respect WE's request. Bye.
Well played, sir.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2008, 10:09:47 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI

Skip to 2:00 if you don't want to watch entire interview.


Another could be-what if game.  Again, no serious discussion, no specific theory.  Just another offhand remark in part of a five-minute CNN interview. Dembski referred to a "purposed, directed process".  If I had more information, I might give him credit, but a coffe-klatch morning show is not the forum for serious discussion.  I saw no specific metion of "extra terrestrial" life.
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Offline Lord Undies

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2008, 11:17:48 PM »
To explain the proof that God exists to someone of the Atheist faith is like explaining the color red to a blind man or the song of a robin to one who is deaf.   

Offline Wretched Excess

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2008, 10:00:16 PM »
hey, TNO  . . .

I would gladly joust with you regarding evolution, or lack thereof, but it's friday night . . . . and I just
don't want to get into with you, or what you getting into it with someone else would cause . ..

so, here is my ONE time deal.

stay out of our religion and/or evolution threads . . .  any other topic is okay, just not the incendiary
ones.

I would appreciate it.



If I have to stay out of threads about religion and evolution, I would rather not post... but no hard feelings about it.

our deal was that you could start any thread that you wanted, but not hijack other member's threads regarding religion.  it made the subject almost "undiscussable".

that deal is still securely in place.


Offline djones520

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2008, 04:11:27 AM »
I don't see how anyone can think all this shit was just happenstance.

There IS something greater than us, there HAS to be.

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Offline rich_t

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »
I don't see how anyone can think all this shit was just happenstance.

There IS something greater than us, there HAS to be.




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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2008, 05:37:45 PM »
I would have voted for Directed Evolution.

But that's just how I roll.

That's ID.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2008, 05:41:21 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI
Well, if this is the theory being ridiculed today, in 10-20 years this is very likely the one to be thought of as nearly absolutely true.
Since ID isn't a "theory" by any and all possible scientific definitions, that is not a worry.  If it comes to that, it will be when the USA has secured its status as a 3rd world country by its embrace of willful ignorance and hopefully long, long after I am gone.
If you want to worship an orange pile of garbage with a reckless disregard for everything, get on down to Arbys & try our loaded curly fries.

Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2008, 07:06:55 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI
Well, if this is the theory being ridiculed today, in 10-20 years this is very likely the one to be thought of as nearly absolutely true.
Since ID isn't a "theory" by any and all possible scientific definitions, that is not a worry.  If it comes to that, it will be when the USA has secured its status as a 3rd world country by its embrace of willful ignorance and hopefully long, long after I am gone.

Of course, I was being facetious. Although one can't go wrong betting on all the theories being ridiculed today, that is the track record.  So you're only right 80% of the time, so what?

Anyway, almost everyone willfully embraces ignorance on some level.  That's why we're all here.
“A man who has been through bitter experiences and travelled far enjoys even his sufferings after a time”
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2008, 07:13:19 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI
Well, if this is the theory being ridiculed today, in 10-20 years this is very likely the one to be thought of as nearly absolutely true.
Since ID isn't a "theory" by any and all possible scientific definitions, that is not a worry.  If it comes to that, it will be when the USA has secured its status as a 3rd world country by its embrace of willful ignorance and hopefully long, long after I am gone.

Of course, I was being facetious. Although one can't go wrong betting on all the theories being ridiculed today, that is the track record.  So you're only right 80% of the time, so what?

Anyway, almost everyone willfully embraces ignorance on some level.  That's why we're all here.

Some willful ignorance is worse than others.

But I understood your post -- I was using it as a jump point to make an important point.  I truly fear for the future of the USA.
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Offline Duke Nukum

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2008, 08:02:36 PM »
So you're not offering anything concrete, just an offhand remark printed in a much larger article.  Okay.  Gotcha.

My dinner COULD have been prepared by space aliens.  After all, I didn't actually see them make it.  But the girl at the drive-thru window that took my money makes me think the answer is probably NO.

I added a link to video of an interview in which Mr. Dembski reveals his belief that "the intelligence behind things" may be of alien origin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_SD1EgcUI
Well, if this is the theory being ridiculed today, in 10-20 years this is very likely the one to be thought of as nearly absolutely true.
Since ID isn't a "theory" by any and all possible scientific definitions, that is not a worry.  If it comes to that, it will be when the USA has secured its status as a 3rd world country by its embrace of willful ignorance and hopefully long, long after I am gone.

Of course, I was being facetious. Although one can't go wrong betting on all the theories being ridiculed today, that is the track record.  So you're only right 80% of the time, so what?

Anyway, almost everyone willfully embraces ignorance on some level.  That's why we're all here.

Some willful ignorance is worse than others.

But I understood your post -- I was using it as a jump point to make an important point.  I truly fear for the future of the USA.

Ah, don't worry, everything works out just the way it should.  It is actually impossible to fail, at most only suffering can be prolonged.

The very good news is, in spite of how it looks sometimes, there has never been a better time to be alive and this trend will continue, in spite of relative set backs from time to time.

Even though I worry sometimes, I know there is nothing to worry about ever.  One of the tricks is to focus on fulfilling your own goals and desires and worry less about what others appear to be doing. We have very little control over the thoughts and actions of others anyway and sometimes trying to argue the point only cements them in their point of view and if they actually are in error it only prolongs it for them.

Debate seems like something that, instead of trying to win, it should be something to elucidate both points of view.  Because everybody holds beliefs and opinions for what seems like a very good reason to them and it is usually an emotion based reason and very few of us can overcome our own emotional perspective via detached and logical argument.  One thing studying the Market has taught me is everything is about emotion, even if on some emotional level we like to think our belief is based on empirical fact, it is simply impossible to separate what we think of as "independent reality" from ourself.  And most of what we call the world is nothing more than what we expect to see, it is projection.  So, since we create it psychologically, it is very difficult to view it in a detached manner.  Even our impersonal scientific instruments that can't lie are made by humans so therefore, they are perfectly capable of lying.  So if one looks at the world with a worried eye, that worry will be reflected back to the so-called observer.  If one devises an impersonal instrument to measure the worry, it will report back things to worry about.

So, one way to absolutely guarantee fewer things to worry about is to worry less while expecting things to work out more.  It is really simple and that is one thing about a highly educated population, they expect everything to be complicated and so very seldom stumble upon solutions.  People can't just choose to be happy, they have to be led by an elite who propose pointless legislation based on expensive and largely erroneous and over-complicated scientific studies, and then the laws have to be debated and changed from what the  erroneous and over-complicated scientific studies said to do in the first place.  And then the laws pass and the people are more miserable then when the process started.

This is why it is so often that the children's nursery rhyme can hold more truth then decades long, peer reviewed scientific studies.  Just choose to be happy and everything else tends to work itself out.

This is exactly why, the stupider it looks, the more important it probably is.  Because it hasn't had all the truth and beauty over-analyzed out of it.

The Universe is nothing more or less than one giant, over-complicated conspiracy theory made to put our attention on the "out there" rather than the inner space where our true power actually resides.  And it works so well at what it was designed to do, we all fall for it.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2008, 09:28:54 AM »
I'm in the "Don't really care" group.  No matter what, the time scale involved relative to my lifespan makes it about as relevant to me as "How long ago were South America and Africa connected?"  Kind of interesting, but not important on a personal level.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2008, 10:32:55 AM »
How come there's no "White folk was created in a lab on the mother ship to test and temper the pure, black race which had been beamed down in their perfected, celestial glory..." option?

What a racist poll...

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2008, 09:29:19 PM »
God created everything with the ability to adapt to environment.  Everything He made is intelligently designed.  Each "kind" is programmed to "evolve" within the original "blueprints."  Hence things like the proliferation of canines since Noah's time.  So, my answer would have to be...all 3.   :-)
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2008, 09:35:51 PM »
I'm in the "Don't really care" group.  No matter what, the time scale involved relative to my lifespan makes it about as relevant to me as "How long ago were South America and Africa connected?"  Kind of interesting, but not important on a personal level.
Until you realize that understanding TToE is a fundamental part of most medical research and all drug research.  Miracle drugs like Metformin/Glucophage are directly linked to understanding evolutionary history and processes.  If you ever get Diabetes or any other disease that can be treated using drugs, you will very much care about TToE indeed.

Would you want your pilot not to understand about wind currents because he can't see them and therefore they are a result of faith/belief?
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2008, 09:38:12 PM »
God created everything with the ability to adapt to environment.  Everything He made is intelligently designed.  Each "kind" is programmed to "evolve" within the original "blueprints."  Hence things like the proliferation of canines since Noah's time.  So, my answer would have to be...all 3.   :-)
There is no such thing as a "kind."  God may have started the whole process (and I believe he did), but he did it with astounding care by instantiating rules by which the Universe operates.

I am not quite sure what you mean about canines, but canis domesticus (and felinus domesticus) are certainly great examples of TToE before our eyes.

And, of course, there is zero scientific evidence for a worldwide flood.
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Offline rich_t

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2008, 10:17:11 PM »
[qoute]Would you want your pilot not to understand about wind currents because he can't see them and therefore they are a result of faith/belief?[/quote]

Things like wind currents can be measured with equipment. 

TToE is a whole different kettle of fish.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2008, 11:42:31 PM »
Quote
Would you want your pilot not to understand about wind currents because he can't see them and therefore they are a result of faith/belief?

Things like wind currents can be measured with equipment. 

TToE is a whole different kettle of fish.

No, it isn't.

TToE is as substantiated as Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy and all other modern scientific fields of study.

Did you know the Theory of Gravity is much less understood than the Theory of Evolution?

My analogy holds -- pilots not understanding wind are the same as doctors not understanding TToE.

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2008, 09:17:32 AM »
I'm in the "Don't really care" group.  No matter what, the time scale involved relative to my lifespan makes it about as relevant to me as "How long ago were South America and Africa connected?"  Kind of interesting, but not important on a personal level.
Until you realize that understanding TToE is a fundamental part of most medical research and all drug research.  Miracle drugs like Metformin/Glucophage are directly linked to understanding evolutionary history and processes.  If you ever get Diabetes or any other disease that can be treated using drugs, you will very much care about TToE indeed.

Would you want your pilot not to understand about wind currents because he can't see them and therefore they are a result of faith/belief?

Your idea of relevance differs from mine.  The developments you're talking about are actually based on genetic selection with some minor induced mutations and gene splicing technology, which in the first and second instances are only components of TToE as a whole and in the third case something else entirely.  It would matter a lot to me if I were a medical researcher, or the pilot instead of a passenger in your example, but as an end user all I care about are results.  If the pilot prays to Thor and it works better than aerodynamics as we understand them, that's great with me, the whole aircrew can start wearing hammers.  Ditto if the shaman's results beat the doctor's (which they do in the case of mental health treatment, though of course not in physical medicine).

For the record, my personal opinion is that TToE has some serious holes in it when it comes to long-term issues like speciation, but in general makes a whole lot more sense than Creationism or ID, which as most Evangelicals espouse them strike me as on the same logical plane as belief in the Elder Gods of Olympus or Asgaard.

Was there an original Prime Cause?  I don't know, but it sure seems very possible to me.  What would impel the Big Bang in the first place after all?  But if the truth or falsity of other people's belief systems it is not relevant to my actions, or decisions on courses of action, I really don't care if they sincerely believe everything in the world flows from the good wishes of The Goat With A Thousand Young who must be placated with prayer every hour, as long as they get out of my way while they're doing it.   
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline MrsSmith

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Re: Simple poll: Evolution, Creationism or ID?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2008, 06:22:08 PM »
God created everything with the ability to adapt to environment.  Everything He made is intelligently designed.  Each "kind" is programmed to "evolve" within the original "blueprints."  Hence things like the proliferation of canines since Noah's time.  So, my answer would have to be...all 3.   :-)
There is no such thing as a "kind."  God may have started the whole process (and I believe he did), but he did it with astounding care by instantiating rules by which the Universe operates.

I am not quite sure what you mean about canines, but canis domesticus (and felinus domesticus) are certainly great examples of TToE before our eyes.

And, of course, there is zero scientific evidence for a worldwide flood.

We currently assign every creature to a "kind," though we use different terminology.   ::) 

Yes, canines have evolved pretty dramatically since the originals stepped off the Ark.  Of course, they have also evolved under God's rules, since all canines can still breed with any other canine of the proper sex. 

As most of the fossils studied today were created during the flood, there is certainly much more that zero scientific evidence.  Eventually, we may learn enough to correctly interpret the evidence.
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