Author Topic: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.  (Read 1805 times)

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Offline thundley4

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Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« on: March 21, 2016, 03:36:10 PM »
    Hypothetical question: If Trump is only a few dozen delegates short of 1237, and Cruz is several hundred behind, but they strike a deal.

   Trump will nominate Cruz to the Supreme Court in return for Cruz's support.


   Assuming that Mitch McConnell doesn't cave to Obama prior to the election, would you support Trump?

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2016, 04:04:21 PM »
No.
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Offline Crazy Horse

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2016, 05:55:31 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that big dog is in the maybe camp
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 06:34:23 PM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that big dog is in the maybe camp

I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying that.

Offline Rick

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2016, 07:11:29 PM »
Why the Supreme Court, why not VP.

Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 07:24:19 PM »
Why the Supreme Court, why not VP.

Cruz could have a longer impact on the Supreme court than as VP.

Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 07:41:04 PM »
Yes  -- to not vote or go 3rd party is a vote for hitlery.


Better our demon than theirs.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 07:42:54 PM »
Yes  -- to not vote or go 3rd party is a vote for hitlery.


Better our demon than theirs.

OTOH, if the GOP pulls some bullshit to give us someone like Jeb, Kasich or Romney, all bets are off.

Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2016, 07:49:51 PM »
OTOH, if the GOP pulls some bullshit to give us someone like Jeb, Kasich or Romney, all bets are off.

Not really: once the primaries are over it is binary:  R or D.  A non-vote/3rd party vote is a D vote.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2016, 08:27:58 PM »
Not really: once the primaries are over it is binary:  R or D.  A non-vote/3rd party vote is a D vote.

If the RNC picks someone that isn't even close to being in the race just because they don't like Trump of Cruz, it's game over. They've lost and who knows what it will take to ever get conservatives back.

Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 07:19:22 PM »
The Republican Party has to understand that times are changing, and the people who have to pay the bills that the Washington cabal keeps running up are pissed..  They can either "go with the flow" and embrace the new Party, thus retaining some control; or they can ignore the people, and lose the election plus all of the power they had when conservatives leave the Republican Party and never come back.

It's that simple.
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Offline Fourwinds

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 07:32:03 PM »
The Republican Party has to understand that times are changing, and the people who have to pay the bills that the Washington cabal keeps running up are pissed..  They can either "go with the flow" and embrace the new Party, thus retaining some control; or they can ignore the people, and lose the election plus all of the power they had when conservatives leave the Republican Party and never come back.

It's that simple.

Giving the way they are kicking and screaming. I'm inclined to believe they'd much rather ignore the people.

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 10:53:39 PM »
Not really: once the primaries are over it is binary:  R or D.  A non-vote/3rd party vote is a D vote.

The Donks say "once the primaries are over it is binary:  R or D.  A non-vote/3rd party vote is an R vote."

You're both wrong.
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Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2016, 12:12:02 AM »
The Donks say "once the primaries are over it is binary:  R or D.  A non-vote/3rd party vote is an R vote."

You're both wrong.

If a vote would have gone R with a different candidate it is a tick-mark in the opposition column.

I am 100% correct -- had R's voted for McCain (as awful as he was), we would not have the POTUS standing in front of a small despot saying "thank you sir, may I have another" as happened this week.

Worm-eaters, the disaster of the last 7 years is on you.  If you have another tantrum, then the mega-disaster of a hitlery presidency will be on you as well.  If it will take a generation to undo obozo, it will be many generations to undo a hitlery administration on top of that.  And all those generations can and should curse you.

Proof?  We are still suffering from FDR (may he rot in hell forever).

Don't rot in hell forever, don't protest vote.

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Offline Big Dog

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2016, 07:30:42 AM »
If a vote would have gone R with a different candidate it is a tick-mark in the opposition column.

I am 100% correct -- had R's voted for McCain (as awful as he was), we would not have the POTUS standing in front of a small despot saying "thank you sir, may I have another" as happened this week.

Worm-eaters, the disaster of the last 7 years is on you.  If you have another tantrum, then the mega-disaster of a hitlery presidency will be on you as well.  If it will take a generation to undo obozo, it will be many generations to undo a hitlery administration on top of that.  And all those generations can and should curse you.

Proof?  We are still suffering from FDR (may he rot in hell forever).

Don't rot in hell forever, don't protest vote.

It's not a tantrum, my friend. It's principle. And you're still wrong.

It's not an either-or equation, in which Not-A = B. The only vote for a candidate is the vote cast for him/her.

The universe of possible votes each citizen in the general election includes:

1. Nominated Republican
2. Nominated Democrat
3. Nominated Libertarian
4. Write-in candidate, includes candidates from other parties who did not qualify for ballot access
5. Leave blank- Withdrawing the consent of the governed.
6. Write in "None of the above"- Withdrawing the consent of the governed.
7. Not voting at all- Apathy or Withdrawing the consent of the governed.

For each voter, the vote is an exercise of principle- or, at least, it should be. I will vote for the candidate with a consistent history of safeguarding personal freedom and personal liberty, who is dedicated to the principle of small, constitutionally limited government. If no candidate has earned my trust, then I will withdraw my consent.

Withdrawing the consent of the governed is a founding principle in this country, and it's always an option. If your party wants my vote, then it must nominate a candidate whom I can trust.
Government is the negation of liberty.
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CAVE FVROREM PATIENTIS.

Offline SighLass

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2016, 03:42:46 PM »
Whenever election time rolls around and the candidates are less than perfect (which is every time), there is a debate between those who refuse to support the "lesser of two evils" and those who insist that we must to prevent the greater evil. Here's my take.

The problem isn't necessarily voting for the "lesser evil," per se. In any dichotomous choice, there will always be two choices that can be presented as a greater and lesser evil, but that doesn't mean that both are evil or we can never choose either. The question is whether we are actually supporting evil or merely getting less good than some ideal.

In a choice between Jesus and the Apostle Paul for your pastor, would it be accurate to describe Jesus as the lesser of two evils just because he's the better option? Clearly not. Yet some take every choice between two options, label it a choice between evils and refuse to choose either. This is faulty reasoning.

On the other hand, in a choice between Hitler and Stalin, both are so evil that you must choose neither. It's not because you can't choose the "lesser evil" but because you cannot support evil.

We must be careful not to let an unattainable ideal become the enemy of the real good we can achieve now. Imperfection and flaws don't necessarily constitute evil that we can't support. If we refuse to support anyone unless we get everything we want, we are contributing to the greater evil by refusing to stand against it where we have a chance of stopping it.

But on the other hand, whoever we support must have some redeeming quality and not be of such horrible moral character that we would contributing to evil in supporting him, even if he is less evil than the alternative. There has to be some minimum standard in place, not merely that we will support anyone as long as the alternative is worse. Sometimes you have to take a stand even when the odds are against you because to do otherwise is to collude with evil. Wisdom is knowing where to draw the line.

Right now, Trump crosses my line and I will in all likelihood vote write-in if he gets the clear nomination.

P.S. Yes I know Godwin's Law.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:53:18 PM by SighLass »

Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 05:43:25 PM »
It's not a tantrum, my friend. It's principle. And you're still wrong.

It's not an either-or equation, in which Not-A = B. The only vote for a candidate is the vote cast for him/her.

The universe of possible votes each citizen in the general election includes:

1. Nominated Republican
2. Nominated Democrat
3. Nominated Libertarian
4. Write-in candidate, includes candidates from other parties who did not qualify for ballot access
5. Leave blank- Withdrawing the consent of the governed.
6. Write in "None of the above"- Withdrawing the consent of the governed.
7. Not voting at all- Apathy or Withdrawing the consent of the governed.

For each voter, the vote is an exercise of principle- or, at least, it should be. I will vote for the candidate with a consistent history of safeguarding personal freedom and personal liberty, who is dedicated to the principle of small, constitutionally limited government. If no candidate has earned my trust, then I will withdraw my consent.

Withdrawing the consent of the governed is a founding principle in this country, and it's always an option. If your party wants my vote, then it must nominate a candidate whom I can trust.

I soooooo wish I lived in your world, where unicorns shit skittles.

All that high-falutin' crap is just that in the world the rest of us inhabit:  There are 2 choices - R or D.  Anything else is a minus vote for one or the other.  A protest vote (or non-vote) is just a tantrum to make the voter feel smug.  In realpoltik it just means that a vote has been subtracted from one side or the other (depending on the leaning of the voter).

Vote (or don't) for who you want.  But the real world implications of that decision were responsible for emperor three putt twice.  THAT must have been what you wanted as "consent of the governed."

You get your shot at primary time.  After that, you must live with the real world results, like the last 8 years.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2016, 05:56:43 PM »
You get your shot at primary time.  After that, you must live with the real world results, like the last 8 years.

I agree with most of that, but if the RNC/GOP go outside the field and force their candidate on voters, then they become no better than the democrats by telling us we're too stupid to pick a candidate.

Offline freedumb2003b

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2016, 06:15:55 PM »
I agree with most of that, but if the RNC/GOP go outside the field and force their candidate on voters, then they become no better than the democrats by telling us we're too stupid to pick a candidate.

I am 100% sure that with President McCain or Romney there would not be obozocare nor would  wither stand in front of a petty tyrant while said despot lectures him and saying "thank you sir, may  have another."

NONE of us like the "hold our nose" vote, but there we are.

People who stand on "principle" to the detriment of the country will give us *shudder* president klinton II
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Hello to the Baizuo lurkers from DU, DI, JPR and Huffpo

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Offline thundley4

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2016, 06:40:42 PM »
I am 100% sure that with President McCain or Romney there would not be obozocare nor would  wither stand in front of a petty tyrant while said despot lectures him and saying "thank you sir, may  have another."

NONE of us like the "hold our nose" vote, but there we are.

People who stand on "principle" to the detriment of the country will give us *shudder* president klinton II

So you'd be fine with it if the masters in DC tell you to vote for Jeb Bush or Mitt Romney despite that neither got the support of voters when given a choice the first time around?

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 12:11:07 AM »
I soooooo wish I lived in your world, where unicorns shit skittles.

All that high-falutin' crap is just that in the world the rest of us inhabit:  There are 2 choices - R or D.  Anything else is a minus vote for one or the other.  A protest vote (or non-vote) is just a tantrum to make the voter feel smug.  In realpoltik it just means that a vote has been subtracted from one side or the other (depending on the leaning of the voter).

Vote (or don't) for who you want.  But the real world implications of that decision were responsible for emperor three putt twice.  THAT must have been what you wanted as "consent of the governed."

You get your shot at primary time.  After that, you must live with the real world results, like the last 8 years.

If my vote for the candidate of my choice is a "tantrum", then why are you the one getting so emotional?

You're still having trouble with that math thing. The vote tally is made up of votes for each candidate, not subtractions for votes for the other guy(s) or non-votes.

The real Realpolitik is that we all have a choice, and for millions of Americans "the lesser of two evils" just won't cut it anymore. I thought 2012 taught your party that lesson.  If you want more votes for a Republican candidate, then nominate one who doesn't suck. If you can't do that, then don't complain if people refuse to eat your shit sandwich. Your argument that your sandwich is made of shit, but the other party's sandwich has bigger turds, is not going to close the deal- trust me.

Quote
You get your shot at primary time

Oh, how wrong you are. Libertarian candidates are selected by a separate nominating process, not an (R) or (D) primary. Independents and write-ins don't follow primaries, either. Each have equal access as the (R) and (D) nominees to the general election ballot.  So, my "shot", my opportunity to grant or withhold the consent of the governed, is on the first Tuesday of November.

Your primaries and caucuses are doing nothing more than polishing some turds, and flushing others. After all, it was two Republican convention delegates who recently said that you (R) voters don't select the nominee- they do. How do you feel about being bitch-slapped by your own party? Bet you'll still support them, though. And they know it.

As John Quincy Adams said, Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.  In the end, honor is all a man has, and the foundation of honor is living by principles. I won't give my consent to a candidate who does not represent the principles important to me; and I'll be able to look myself in the mirror on the first Wednesday in November, no matter which candidate wins.

Will you?
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline Happy Fun Ball

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2016, 11:04:09 AM »
#NeverDemocrat

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2016, 11:12:15 AM »
#NeverDemocrat

The last Donk I would have voted for was Harry Truman.
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: Never Trump? Hypothetically speaking.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2016, 01:06:43 PM »
#NeverDemocrat

Agree 100%.  But, if the nominating process gives us Trump, that is who I will vote for.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk!" -Ayn Rand
 
"Those that trust God with their safety must yet use proper means for their safety, otherwise they tempt Him, and do not trust Him.  God will provide, but so must we also." - Matthew Henry, Commentary on 2 Chronicles 32, from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

"These anti-gun fools are more dangerous to liberty than street criminals or foreign spies."--Theodore Haas, Dachau Survivor

Chase her.
Chase her even when she's yours.
That's the only way you'll be assured to never lose her.