Proglodytes pretty sure your money is their money, so 1A must end

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

EV_Ares (5,914 posts)

$71 BILLION — THAT’S HOW MUCH AMERICA IS PAYING TO SUBSIDIZE RELIGION

A new study has found that churches in the United States are ripping off the American people for a whopping $71 billion in tax breaks.

Entire Article: http://bit.ly/1S7YhEs

gratuitous (52,102 posts)

4. I'll decline to go to a blind link

But did this new study quantify any of the benefits society receives for this subsidy? I know that my teeny tiny congregation provides an outsize benefit to the community for the $10,000 or so the County doesn't receive in annual property taxes. We provide space for the day center for a homeless family program for free, feed hungry folks, collect and distribute clothes to the needy in our area. Was that benefit offset by the alleged subsidy? Other churches in our area provided free meals and sleeping space for firefighters during wildfire season that would have eaten up a pretty good portion of the firefighting budget. Is that figured into that subsidy?

Is there an allowance for people's charitable contributions that would go elsewhere if they didn't go to churches? I know that I give about 20% of my pre-tax income to my church, but I'd give it elsewhere if I wasn't a faithful congregant, so the "subsidy" of my lowered tax bill because of charitable donations would be a wash. Is that part of the study?

Snobblevitch (1,589 posts)

5. How much are other 'nonprofits, ripping off the American people?

whatthehey (1,587 posts)

7. Hold churches to the same reporting standards then

Where data can be found (because most churches sure don't share then) they show a luidicrously small amount of church finances used to help others. Any nonprofits that do likewise are yes indeed ripping off both donors and the tax rolls.

Snobblevitch (1,589 posts)

9. I do not know what churches must report to the IRS.

I do know that Christian churches do more good than evil with their donations.

whatthehey (1,587 posts)

10. Can you show actual data that shows this

If you tell me of your church I'll tell you of those who let children die rather than call doctors. There are hundreds of thousands of churches at least and hundreds of millions of Christians in the US. If you have useful enough data to generalize please share it 'cos I sure don't.

smirkymonkey (15,563 posts)

12. End their tax exemption NOW!

They have become too political, particularly the right wing fundy churches. They need to start paying up.

EV_Ares (5,914 posts)

15. Exactly. Also look at the huge mansions, airplanes some of these evangelical ministers have & those

mansions are as tax exempt as the small parsonages ministers get.

I wonder if they claim all of that election material they hand out to members as tax exempt as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027467116

[Carl]

whatthehey (1,591 posts)
18. The real goal should be enforcing non-politicization of churches

because despite what a struggling shrinking few kumbaya merchants in "liberal Christianity" pretend, the huge and growing majority of regular church attendees are virulently right wing and active, and spectacularly successful, in spreading that poisonous combination.

Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 22, 2015, 12:06 PM

whatthehey (1,591 posts)
17. Are you?

I hear plenty of anecdotes about churches dedicated to selfless charity. I'm sure some of them are true. But when I bother to track down details they always seem to be small operations in the dying "mainline" denominations, and even then often with strings attached like no pray no eat shelters. But what data we do have shows far more adherents attend evangelical denominations, and that "mainline" churches despite the majoritarian sounding name are a small and shrinking part of the religious landscape, which is increasingly dominated by either megachurches who collect funds mostly to glorify themselves and enrich their pastors or fringe sects which collect funds to yes perhaps sometimes help but also isolate and render dependent their own adherents.

It also makes me wonder why these selflessly charitable folks would stop being so if the church were taxed, or even didn't exist (no I certainly do not suggest banning churches). I know quite a few selflessly charitable atheists and other nonreligious folks who manage to do good works without them.

This seems to be the best data I can find, and from a decidedly pro-church source. Does this look like a dedication to selfless charity given without thought for self to you?

Care to comment on a typical public school budget?

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-a-schools-budget-tend-to-go-towards-teacher-salaries-and-compensation-on-average

[thundley4]

gratuitous (52,102 posts)

4. I'll decline to go to a blind link

But did this new study quantify any of the benefits society receives for this subsidy? I know that my teeny tiny congregation provides an outsize benefit to the community for the $10,000 or so the County doesn't receive in annual property taxes. We provide space for the day center for a homeless family program for free, feed hungry folks, collect and distribute clothes to the needy in our area.

Silly Christian DUmmie. They state is the only entity that should be allowed to take people's money and redistribute it to those in need.

[FlaGator]

EV_Ares (5,914 posts)

15. Exactly. Also look at the huge mansions, airplanes some of these evangelical ministers have & those

mansions are as tax exempt as the small parsonages ministers get.

I wonder if they claim all of that election material they hand out to members as tax exempt as well.

Here they go again, painting with the broad brush.Extrapolating from the few and projecting it on the many. Almost all ministers live just like me and you but the relatively few false profits (spelling intentional) use their position to fleece the desperate, who don't understand the Gospel, with lies and false promises. These are the ones the anti-Christian crowd like to point to and ignore the majority who make around that average salary in the U.S. and who's Churches provide huge services to the community. My church has a dental and medical clinic that is free. The only requirement is that those seeking medical assistance have no insurance of their own. We also have a center for pregnant women and new mothers where they can get free clothing and diapers for their children and counseling if they want it. We offer a food pantry that gives bags of groceries to those who are out of a job or for some reason need help.

No one who comes is forced to do anything "Christian". They are not preached to, given religious tracts, forced to go to church or anything that libs usually claim. We do ask if they want someone to pray for them and if they want with them. That is it. We expect nothing in return.

We are not a mega-church or a wealthy church. We have about 130+ members whose donations support the church. Some of that money goes to the clinic but we also get donations from some of the more wealthy people around town who are not themselves necessarily religious. They just see a good cause and are often convinced to help.

I really which libs would take a look at what most churches do in return for the tax-exempt status and not focus on those few who seek personal wealth over service to Jesus. If they opened their mind to the possibilities they would be surprised. Were as they focus on Benny Hinn and Paula White on one side and Westbro Baptist on the other, they close their eye to the majority who really are helping out in their communities.

[txradioguy]

EV_Ares (5,914 posts)

$71 BILLION — THAT’S HOW MUCH AMERICA IS PAYING TO SUBSIDIZE RELIGION

A new study has found that churches in the United States are ripping off the American people for a whopping $71 billion in tax breaks.

And yet you don't blink an eye at the millions of tax payer dollars wasted on Planned Parenthood.

[Patriot Guard Rider]

Care to comment on a typical public school budget?

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-a-schools-budget-tend-to-go-towards-teacher-salaries-and-compensation-on-average

Personally, I'd like to see the same pie chart on the Clinton Foundation.

[Carl]

Personally, I'd like to see the same pie chart on the Clinton Foundation.

[Patriot Guard Rider]

I wonder why this one isn't posted over there. After all, "other expenses" and "salaries" are not mutually exclusive.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Never happen.  The Dems would never piss on the Black churches and Latinos like that, they need them too badly.  Plus of course the Unitarians, who are primarily Progs, would shit themselves.

Now the megachurches may be a whole different deal, but having been 'way more involved than I wanted to be with a non-church nonprofit, few of them have much surplus they don't or couldn't expense every year, so the Feds would end up getting squat from them, local government property taxes would really be the only beneficiary.

I also notice that in pooh-poohing the good work of churches, the antireligious DUmmies are looking solely at the cash out, not the multiple use of facilities that show up elsewhere (Mortgage, Building and Grounds, etc.) for things like poor/homeless meals, shelter, daycare services, etc., and they also entirely entirely consideration of the value of donated labor of the congregation in providing such community services, since it doesn't show up as a line item in the finance report. 

[SVPete]

Yaaaaaawn!

The USC and First Amendment forbids discrimination against churches among non-profits. Don't like it? Amend the Constitution.

[Patriot Guard Rider]

Yaaaaaawn!

The USC and First Amendment forbids discrimination against churches among non-profits. Don't like it? Amend the Constitution.

They'll get on it right after they have the 2A eliminated.

[freedumb2003b]

smirkymonkey (15,563 posts)

12. End their tax exemption NOW!

They have become too political, particularly the right wing fundy churches. They need to start paying up.

Let's start with Trinity United Church of Christ and then go down the list of all the Baptist churches in the Deep South, then finish with madrasas and mosques.

That should work out perfectly for you DUmmies.

[thundley4]

Let's do away with all tax exempt charities, beginning with the Clinton foundation, the Gates foundation, Greenpeace and all those others.

Church exemptions, otoh at least have some basis in the constitution. No other charities do.

[98ZJUSMC]

Here they go again, painting with the broad brush.Extrapolating from the few and projecting it on the many. Almost all ministers live just like me and you but the relatively few false profits (spelling intentional) use their position to fleece the desperate, who don't understand the Gospel, with lies and false promises. These are the ones the anti-Christian crowd like to point to and ignore the majority who make around that average salary in the U.S. and who's Churches provide huge services to the community.

 

whatthehey (1,591 posts)

You're a retard.  End of story.

[Ptarmigan]

Care to comment on a typical public school budget?

https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-a-schools-budget-tend-to-go-towards-teacher-salaries-and-compensation-on-average

Yet public schools spend a lot per a student and screw up. Just look at Washington, DC.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I've worked on helping with tax prep for several churches over the years.  No "mega churches", just volunteer work where they toss me a very small amount of $$ for my time.

A general but not absolute observation.  Churches do not have vast holdings nor collect tons of donations.  The work they do is local, helping the poor, provide child care, while paying their pastors & staff very little. 

The donations from the congregation keep the lights & heat on.  The benefits to the community are immeasurable.  So what that they don't have to pay property taxes. 5, 10, 15k....whatever the asset value might be.  Churches take over such things rather than the government.

I prefer it that way.

[BlueStateSaint]

My church community is one of the two largest (and wealthiest) in our Diocese.  We generate a lot of money, mainly because we can give it.  So, in following the saying "To whom much is given, much is expected," we do a lot in local communities--two soup kitchens in the county that the State's capitol is in, 90% to 95% of the donations to a small city's food bank in our county, and various ministries for shut-ins and interfaith outreach.  We're also trying to educate an average of 1400 religious education students in a space designed to hold 500 students (at best).  So, we're sinking $6.4 million into a new church, which is supposed to start construction in the Spring of 2016.  Guess what?  As it stands now, we won't have to borrow any money.  We're upright and upstanding citizens in the community, and our pastor wouldn't have it any other way.  He's not the type who seeks to be in front of the cameras when he gets the chance.  He'd much rather be in the background, sustaining the progress we've made.

[SVPete]

Don't miss a couple of key word games in the DU posts.

EV_A claims Americans "subsidize" churches, as if the government gives money to churches. It doesn't. As with other non-profits the government doesn't tax churches' donations received or property, and encourages people, through tax deductions, to donate to them. There's a big difference. What EV_A really wants of for government to discriminates against charities with whom (s)he disagrees, while not touching those with whom (s) agrees.

In posting the Christianity Today pie chart, wth acts as if "Salaries/wages", 47% of the average church's budget, is overhead that has no role in a church's purposes. It's a silly assumption if one thinks about it even briefly, but wth likely puts no value on pastors' and other employees' counseling, teaching, visitation, and other hands-on ministry activities.

But, fine. Forget that the people receiving those "Salaries/wages" work hands on in churches' purpose. Call their "Salaries/wages" salary, for the sake of discussion. Carl pointed out that public schools' "Salaries/wages" are 80% of their budget.  While, obviously, some of that $$ goes to teachers, who are hands-on in schools' purposes, almost all of churches' "Salaries/wages" go to hands-on people. Libs' and Progs' preciousssss social programs have ~75% administrative overhead, with a small % of that going to hands-on social workers. Compared to two government activities - schools and social programs - churches are paragons of efficiency; EV_A;s and wth's real issue with churches is that exist; they resent churches not having dwindled to nothingness in the late 19th and in the 20th Centuries.

[Fourwinds]

Never happen.  The Dems would never piss on the Black churches and Latinos like that, they need them too badly.  Plus of course the Unitarians, who are primarily Progs, would shit themselves.

Now the megachurches may be a whole different deal, but having been 'way more involved than I wanted to be with a non-church nonprofit, few of them have much surplus they don't or couldn't expense every year, so the Feds would end up getting squat from them, local government property taxes would really be the only beneficiary.

I also notice that in pooh-poohing the good work of churches, the antireligious DUmmies are looking solely at the cash out, not the multiple use of facilities that show up elsewhere (Mortgage, Building and Grounds, etc.) for things like poor/homeless meals, shelter, daycare services, etc., and they also entirely entirely consideration of the value of donated labor of the congregation in providing such community services, since it doesn't show up as a line item in the finance report.

Another thing they are failing to grasp is the double edged sword that taxing churches would bring. If churches become a taxed entity what does that bring with it? Representation. Frankly, if Christianity is anathema to them, they really would not like it of it became a political entity complete with it's own lobbying platform seeing as how they have spent the better part of a decade doing their damndest to wipe anything resembling Christianity out of the public eye.

[thundley4]

Another thing they are failing to grasp is the double edged sword that taxing churches would bring. If churches become a taxed entity what does that bring with it? Representation. Frankly, if Christianity is anathema to them, they really would not like it of it became a political entity complete with it's own lobbying platform seeing as how they have spent the better part of a decade doing their damndest to wipe anything resembling Christianity out of the public eye.

I never see GOP candidates going to churches for rallies or the like, but it sure seems like the Dems like speaking to black congregations.