I'll take the Reformation for $100 Alex

[zeitgeist]

Can it get any better than DU on Religion? 

Church and State?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10027184274

damnedifIknow (2,987 posts)

Pope Francis Smacks Churches: “If You Don’t Help the Poor and Needy, then Pay Taxes Like a Business”

With Pope Francis coming to the United States just a little over a week away, he has sent a very clear message to churches that use their tax-exempt status as a way to exploit their property for economic gain. Some churches are refusing to accept refugees into the buildings they own, instead preferring to use it to make money on rentals.

“Some religious orders say, ‘No, now that the convent is empty we are going to make a hotel and we can have guests and support ourselves that way, or make money,'” said Pope Francis. “Well, if that is what you do, then pay taxes! A religious school is tax-exempt because it is religious, but if it is functioning as a hotel, then it should pay taxes just like its neighbor. Otherwise it is not fair business.”

The practice of renting space in religious buildings is very common in Europe. The philosophy behind it, that Pope Francis describes, could very well undermine what many televangelists do in the United States. Rather than practicing their religion, these charlatans run lean businesses and make fat profits. If the church isn’t engaged in the business of the Church, as Pope Francis explained, then it’s time for them to pay their fair share of taxes!

Demonstrating that he follows his own words, the Vatican is taking in two refugee families, who will remain “as long as the Lord wants.”

http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/09/pope-francis-smacks-down-churches-if-you-dont-accept-refugees-then-pay-taxes-like-all-busines/

First up Barney's brother Fred 

Fred Sanders (17,054 posts)
2. Sounding more and more like a Godless socialist just before his WH welcome reception on Wedneday.

The man is a paradox.

The GOP and Fox versus the Pope....going to need to order some more popcorn.

And here we have a new contestant...

Missed the reformation, right Br. Ellmer DUmp?
That's all right you can buy an indulgence. 

Star Member Elmer S. E. Dump (3,091 posts)
63. He possibly represents a new awakening - just in the nick of time.

Not everyione has that Sisssy Chrisy tinngle up the leg

Star Member PeaceNikki (24,939 posts)
45. What am utterly offensive and disgusting suggestion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11362224/Pope-Francis-he-aint-no-liberal.-Beware-of-his-two-faces.html
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7249020
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9112081/the-fantasy-francis/
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116056/progressives-who-love-pope-francis-are-abandoning-women-and-gay-rights

It's disgusting to "dream" of having him in the executive branch of the US government, even in jest. This isn't a ****ing theocracy.

Row on over for a thread where the only thing missing is Father Guido Sarducci and the Find a Pope In the Pizza contest.  Plenty of great stupidity left to browse.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Largest landowner in NYC?  Not Trump, the Catholic Church.  Hmmm, I wonder what they pay in taxes?

[USA4ME]

Bluenorthwest

37. Pleas stop suggesting an anti gay bigot who opposes contraception as if he was a good person.

Look, the RCC teaches that it is a sin to use condoms, and in Africa they tell people that condoms spread HIV when in fact they prevent the spread of HIV. This month and every month, over 100,000 Africans will die from AIDS.

To me that is starkly immoral. To you, that's just the cost of running the Vatican....

This angry twinkie is a one topic nitwit. The beginning of satisfaction for this primitive will only happen when all religion is banned or all religions are forced to comply with what liberals want them to believe.

The twinkie is in for a major awakening in the future.

.

[Delmar]

Response to former9thward (Reply #54)Sat Sep 19, 2015, 08:15 PM
MADem (116,676 posts)
60. According to the article, he was addressing a common practice in Europe.

The article took a few of the pope's words, that appeared to be in the context of the refugee crisis, and tried to spin up a tale that tied into his USA trip.

The practice of renting space in religious buildings is very common in Europe. The philosophy behind it, that Pope Francis describes, could very well undermine what many televangelists do in the United States. Rather than practicing their religion, these charlatans run lean businesses and make fat profits. If the church isn’t engaged in the business of the Church, as Pope Francis explained, then it’s time for them to pay their fair share of taxes!

More to the point, I think the pope is telling people that their j-o-b isn't running a real estate venture, it's helping people. The PURPOSE is charity, the SIDELINE to keep the "Help the poor and needy" thing going is the profit-making stuff.

The sideline is charity, the purpose is:

“the paramount duty of the Church and the faithful is not to aid those in need, but to bring all men into communion with God, through Christ, and into the fullness of the Kingdom.”

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/3327/the_churchs_essential_and_ultimate_mission.aspx

[GOBUCKS]

Not a Catholic, but I can understand the concept of papal infallibility.

But maybe the College of Cardinals made a mistake.

To a layman, this Pope sounds more like a far left fringe politician than a priest.

Capitalism is the only thing that makes modern civilization possible, yet he calls it "the dung of Satan"?



 

[BattleHymn]

Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:32 PM
gvstn (2,088 posts)
8. I truly believe he is a good man.

But he has to be careful. Someone could slip him a little black pill if he goes too much against the standard rules. The Vatican is a bank afterall.

[SVPete]

If a church congregation or religious organization is violating their non-profit status I have no problem with appropriate legal action, whether for making a profit or for endorsing candidates in elections. I don't think DU-folk would be very pleased at the outcome of the law/regs being enforced w/o regard to partisan stance.

While I agree with the current law of charitable orgs being tax-exempt, I'm starting to wonder whether churches should voluntarily forgo that status (much as several colleges refuse to take any Federal $$ in any form), to avoid a way of entangling them in a legal snare.

[JohnnyReb]

My son(Methodist) has decided that he is going to visit different churches to see how they do things. Today he says he is going to 11:00 am mass at the local Catholic church. Can any of you Catholics tell me what he can expect and how he should approach this?

....within the next 2 hours. Short notice, I know.

[SVPete]

My son(Methodist) has decided that he is going to visit different churches to see how they do things. Today he says he is going to 11:00 am mass at the local Catholic church. Can any of you Catholics tell me what he can expect and how he should approach this?

....within the next 2 hours. Short notice, I know.

I'm from a theologically conservative Lutheran background, and I know it's "too late", but if his Methodist church is close to high church Anglican/Episcopalian, the liturgy might not seem too unfamiliar. If his church doesn't use a standard liturgy every week, it will seem different and more formal. The Catholic Church uses a translation of the same Latin liturgy they've used for centuries.

Though I was raised Lutheran I've been in charismatic, Baptist and other similar Evangelical churches for several decades. The one time I attended a Catholic mass was at a wedding. The liturgy was quite familiar, though the statuary here and there were rather foreign to me. What I found most disconcerting was that the Catholic congregants rattled through the responses in the liturgy faster than I can talk. I "get" familiarity, and I know it was a wedding, but they were rattling high-speed through words packed with meaning (many being quotes from the Psalms) as if they were ordering a latte' at Starchucks.

[freedumb2003b]

My son(Methodist) has decided that he is going to visit different churches to see how they do things. Today he says he is going to 11:00 am mass at the local Catholic church. Can any of you Catholics tell me what he can expect and how he should approach this?

....within the next 2 hours. Short notice, I know.

It is very rigidly ritualized.  A lot of standing and sitting (MUI they eliminated the kneeling many years ago) -- scripted prayer/response, a brief sermon from the Priest, more scripted prayer/response, then "go with God."

Minor socializing afterwards but not like Baptists.

[fatboy]

I'm closer in theology to Baptist than anything but attend a Wesleyan Church. I consider the Wesleyan Church to be the conservative wing of the Methodists. Broad brush for sure but I think I can make a case for it.

Anyway, not to offend anyone but the Catholics view the grace of God as a kind of commodity that can be exchanged via the church. For example, you go to mass, ask for forgiveness and receive the communion wafer. You receive some of God's grace by receiving the wafer. There is some truth in this as you ask for forgiveness you receive it but I would say it is all of God's wonderful grace given by faith without charge based on Christ's work on the cross, not by the Priests blessing of the wafer.

But the Baptists run the gamut theologically speaking, from liberal to conservative, Arminian to Calvanistic, from liturgical to primitive.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

This angry twinkie is a one topic nitwit. The beginning of satisfaction for this primitive will only happen when all religion is banned or all religions are forced to comply with what liberals want them to believe.

The twinkie is in for a major awakening in the future.

.

On the one hand, that is true, not just for this moron, but for 90% of the DUmmies.
On the other hand, however, I'm fairly certain he only believes those should apply to Christianity and Judaism. The DUmmies, like most leftists in general, believe other religions, especially Islam, Buddhism, and the various mysticism/ occult- based religions (Wicca, Satanism, etc.), should be treated with kid- gloves and reverence out of fear of being accused of intolerance. They have no problem promoting open bigotry against Christianity and Judaism, in contrast.

[SVPete]

I'm closer in theology to Baptist than anything but attend a Wesleyan Church. I consider the Wesleyan Church to be the conservative wing of the Methodists. Broad brush for sure but I think I can make a case for it.

I think that is pretty accurate historically. The UMC (like PCUSA, the Episcopalians, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - NOT the Lutheran body in which I grew up) has, for a couple of decades, been gradually forcing out those Methodists who believe in the Scriptures, not by direct actions against them, but through denominational stances and actions the Bible-believers cannot stomach or support. I think the splitting of the Wesleyan Methodists and Nazarenes from what became the UMC happened a century or more ago. They could tell which way things were going (and their departure may have made the slide easier and quicker).

[fatboy]

I think that is pretty accurate historically. The UMC (like PCUSA, the Episcopalians, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - NOT the Lutheran body in which I grew up) has, for a couple of decades, been gradually forcing out those Methodists who believe in the Scriptures, not by direct actions against them, but through denominational stances and actions the Bible-believers cannot stomach or support. I think the splitting of the Wesleyan Methodists and Nazarenes from what became the UMC happened a century or more ago. They could tell which way things were going (and their departure may have made the slide easier and quicker).

I agree with everything you say. In our area here in NE PA there are a whole bunch of Lutheran churches. I don't want to say that there are a whole bunch of Lutherans though. My county has a population of <80K so we are semi-rural. The nearest town has about 5K in population and there are 5 ELCA churches. The sad thing is if they consolidated into 1 it would still be a small congregation. Up the road a piece there is an ELCA church that flies the rainbow flag over their 140 year old sanctuary.

[DUmpsterDiver]

islam is a death cult.  Hybrid goats make me nervous now.  Nuns make me smile.

[SVPete]

I agree with everything you say. In our area here in NE PA there are a whole bunch of Lutheran churches. I don't want to say that there are a whole bunch of Lutherans though. My county has a population of <80K so we are semi-rural. The nearest town has about 5K in population and there are 5 ELCA churches. The sad thing is if they consolidated into 1 it would still be a small congregation. Up the road a piece there is an ELCA church that flies the rainbow flag over their 140 year old sanctuary.

ELCA is a very sad story to me, as a good friend in high school was the son of the pastor of the American Lutheran Church in my hometown. He also became an ALC pastor. The ALC was one of the two major denominations that merged to form ELCA. My friend's congregation left ELCA in the late 80s, IIRC, and is part of a small but growing Lutheran body whose congregations left ELCA because of its theologically liberal spiral (but don't like the denomination authority structure of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, my background). With ELCA's recent departures from Scripture over homosexuality I suspect that group has seen a surge of newly affiliating congregations. I'm sure it's been a mess and sadness my friend could have done without for another lifetime or two.

ELCA has been losing members steadily and significantly since the mid or late 80s. By way of contrast, the LCMS has had some slight loss over the past decade or two.

[SVPete]

islam is a death cult.  ...

I saw a comment from a former prof at an Islamic university in Cairo who had become a Christian to the effect that Islam is a "raider's religion". It authorizes and gives a "cause" to men who want to conquer/plunder non-Muslims and Muslims who aren't "Muslim enough".

[Maverick1987]

It authorizes and gives a "cause" to men who want to conquer/plunder non-Muslims and Muslims who aren't "Muslim enough".

The DUmmies regularly dismiss this premise.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

 

[GOBUCKS]

Islam is a "raider's religion". It authorizes and gives a "cause" to men who want to conquer/plunder non-Muslims and Muslims who aren't "Muslim enough".

Fundies would do that if they could.

[fatboy]

ELCA is a very sad story to me, as a good friend in high school was the son of the pastor of the American Lutheran Church in my hometown. He also became an ALC pastor. The ALC was one of the two major denominations that merged to form ELCA. My friend's congregation left ELCA in the late 80s, IIRC, and is part of a small but growing Lutheran body whose congregations left ELCA because of its theologically liberal spiral (but don't like the denomination authority structure of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, my background). With ELCA's recent departures from Scripture over homosexuality I suspect that group has seen a surge of newly affiliating congregations. I'm sure it's been a mess and sadness my friend could have done without for another lifetime or two.

.......

One of my mentors in college became a Presbyterian Pastor in a large PCUSA church. I always felt bad about it given the direction of the PCUSA. A couple of years ago his church left the PCUSA and joined something called the ECO which seems to be a reaction to the liberalism of the mainline presby. This ECO appears to be quite (abit covenant) conservative.

[obumazombie]

islam is a death cult.  Hybrid goats make me nervous now.  Nuns make me smile.

I see what you did there !

Fundies would do that if they could.

Do what ?
If you mean behave exactly like muzzies, you have bought into the lib's assertions about Christianity.

[BlueStateSaint]

I saw a comment from a former prof at an Islamic university in Cairo who had become a Christian to the effect that Islam is a "raider's religion". It authorizes and gives a "cause" to men who want to conquer/plunder non-Muslims and Muslims who aren't "Muslim enough".

That sums it up better than any I've heard before.  H5.

[txradioguy]

Bluenorthwest

37. Pleas stop suggesting an anti gay bigot who opposes contraception as if he was a good person.

Look, the RCC teaches that it is a sin to use condoms, and in Africa they tell people that condoms spread HIV when in fact they prevent the spread of HIV. This month and every month, over 100,000 Africans will die from AIDS.

They might prevent the spread...but how many of those 100K are actually contracting AIDS from something other than gay sex?


http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20010206/bush-meat-aids-like-viruses

[fatboy]

They might prevent the spread...but how many of those 100K are actually contracting AIDS from something other than gay sex?


http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20010206/bush-meat-aids-like-viruses

"Most viruses cannot be seen with an optical microscope so scanning and transmission electron microscopes are used to visualise virions."

I personally think trusting a mass produced latex barrier is a gamble at best.

[SVPete]

"Most viruses cannot be seen with an optical microscope so scanning and transmission electron microscopes are used to visualise virions."

I personally think trusting a mass produced latex barrier is a gamble at best.

Long, long, ago I learned - not the hard way, BTW -  that there is a term for ~15% of couples who rely for a year on condoms for birth control - PARENTS! Going a step further, it should pretty obvious that the failure that led to each  pregnancy was not the first and only such failure, and that some of those who did not become parents also experienced failures.