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Offline SSG Snuggle Bunny

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Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« on: August 10, 2015, 11:11:35 AM »
Quote
niyad (39,140 posts)

Womb and Vagina Envy--a primary disease of the woman-hating gestational slavers
Womb and vagina envy



The feminist psychoanalyst Karen Horney (ca. 1938).


In feminist psychology, the terms womb envy and vagina envy denote the unexpressed anxiety that men may feel in natural envy of the biological functions of the female sex: (pregnancy, parturition, breast feeding) — emotions which could impel their social subordination of women, and to drive themselves to succeed in perpetuating their names via material legacies. Each term is analogous to the concept of female penis envy, derived from the theory of psychosexual development, presented in Freudian psychology; they address the gender role social dynamics underlying the "envy and fascination with the female breasts and lactation, with pregnancy and childbearing, and vagina envy are clues and signs of transsexualism and to a femininity complex of men, which is defended against by psychological and sociocultural means".

Womb envy denotes the envy men may feel towards a woman's primary role in nurturing and sustaining life. In coining the term, the Neo-Freudian psychiatrist Karen Horney (1885–1952) proposed that men experience womb envy more powerfully than women experience penis envy, because "men need to disparage women more than women need to disparage men." As a psychoanalyst, Horney considered womb envy a cultural, psychosocial tendency, like the concept of penis envy, rather than an innate male psychological trait.

Furthermore, in Eve's Seed: Biology, the Sexes, and the Course of History (2000), historian Robert S. McElvaine extended Horney’s argument that womb envy is a powerful, elementary factor in the psychological insecurity suffered by many men. He coined the term non-menstrual syndrome (NMS), denoting a man's possible insecurity before the biologic and reproductive traits of woman; thus, womb envy may impel men to define their identities in opposition to women. Hence, men who are envious of women's reproductive traits insist that a "real man" must be "not-a-woman", thus they may seek to socially dominate women — what they may or may not do in life — as psychological compensation for what men cannot do biologically.

Vagina envy denotes the envy males may feel towards females for having a vagina. In Psychoanalysis and Male Sexuality (1966), Hendrik Ruitenbeek relates vagina envy to men’s desire to be able to give birth and to urinate (higher flow rate) and to masturbate in ways physically different from those available to men, and that such psychological envy might produce misogyny in neurotic men. Moreover, in Vagina Envy in Men (1993), the physician Harold Tarpley elucidates the theoretic differences among the constructs of "vagina envy," "womb envy," "breast envy," and "parturition envy," emotions wherein men suffer envy — "a grudging desire for another's excellence or advantage" — of women's female biologic capabilities of pregnancy, parturition, breast feeding, and of the social-role freedom to physically nurture children.
. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womb_and_vagina_envy






I was reading one of Amanda Marcotte’s recent posts over at Pandagon. It’s about the misogynistic language used by the anti-choice movement, and this passage jumped out at me.

What they fail to understand is that “life begins at conception” is a misogynist statement. It’s the erasure of a woman’s role in making new people, and a claim that the only effort that counts is the effort a man put into ejaculating. Abortion is horrifying because it’s a reminder that men do not actually make babies, but that women do through a 9 month process, and that if a woman chooses to interrupt that process, there will not be a baby. Which is pretty conclusive proof that men don’t make babies. Which directly contradicts the misogynist belief that only men are capable of really doing jobs worth doing.

What Marcotte is describing here is the phenomenon that psychoanalyst Karen Horney (1885-1952) called “womb envy.” Basically, boys and men are jealous of women because women have the ability to go through pregnancy and nursing. Women can find fulfillment from creating new life and from enhancing their own lives through work outside the home. Since men can’t give birth, they can only turn to the outside world for personal fulfillment. She believed that the womb envy that is experienced by males is the source of denying women equal rights, blaming women for the perceived downfall of society, and demonizing women’s sexuality. Whatever your feelings about pregnancy, I think Horney makes a clearly pro-choice, pro-woman point. “Life begins at conception” is a way for anti-choice men to claim a piece of the womb they secretly covet by claiming sole responsibility for the creation of the next generation. I think Marcotte applies the concept of womb envy beautifully in the passage I quoted, even if she didn’t mean to.

But what about anti-choice women? They have wombs, so do they experience womb envy too? I think so, but in a different way. On the subject of misogynistic women, Marcotte explains the benefits of hating your own gender, like moral superiority and being one step closer to being part of the powerful patriarchy. But to be a misogynistic woman, one has to sacrifice the ownership of one’s own womb. Anti-choice women are caught between gaining a slice of the patriarchy pie and having control of their own reproduction. I’ll give anti-choice women the benefit of the doubt and say that they haven’t been completely brainwashed and don’t really like having more children than their bodies, minds, and budgets can handle. Most anti-choice women don’t have “as many children as the good Lord gives,” and they’ll explain away the dozens of kids they would have if they practiced what they preached by pushing abstinence. So, the womb envy that anti-choice women feel is directed toward feminist women who have managed to find social influence and personal fulfillment while feeling entitled to control their own wombs. How do we do it?

http://feministing.com/2009/01/24/taking_womb_envy_one_step_furt/

. . . . . .
Horney often criticized the work of Sigmund Freud. For instance, she opposed Freud's notion of penis envy, claiming that what Freud was really detecting was women's justified envy of men's power in the world. While penis envy might occur occasionally in neurotic women, she said, womb envy occurs just as much in men. Horney felt that men were envious of a woman's ability to bear children. The degree to which men are driven to succeed and to have their names live on, she said, is mere compensation for their inability to more directly extend themselves into the future by means of carrying, nurturing, and bearing children. She did not understand why psychologists found the need to place much emphasis on men's sexual apparatus. Furthermore, Horney desexualized Freud's oedipal complex, claiming that the clinging to one parent and jealousy of the other was simply the result of anxiety caused by a disturbance in the parent-child relationship.

In her personality theory, Horney reformulated Freudian thought and presented a holistic, humanistic perspective that emphasized cultural and social influences, human growth, and the achievement of self-actualization. Though she was often considered to be too outspoken, Horney often has the distinction of being the only woman whose theory is included in personality textbooks.
. . . . .

http://www2.webster.edu/~woolflm/horney.html

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HFRN (1,056 posts)

1. psychologists sometimes lead us down a rabbit hole of unsupported overcomplex theories for their own

self-promotional purposes. No better example, than Freud himself, a coke head who developed his theories based on observations of seriously mentally ill patients, then extrapolated and applied these (unsupported) theories across the entire more 'normal' population

I've never understood how the field of psychiatry ever got away with it (their fawning, unquestioning devotion to a quack), other than using their credentials to talk 'above' the layperson, and baffle them with BS

That sounds like pretty much everything Proglodytes champion.

Quote
smirkymonkey (13,406 posts)

2. Interesting read.

It makes a lot of sense to me, particularly the abortion bit about life beginning at conception. Without the gestation period inside a woman's body, no life can be created. It is not as simple as sperm meeting egg. The process is vastly more complex.

Quote
niyad (39,140 posts)

3. well, one would actually have to understand biology--and we know how these cretins hate

actual science and facts.

Nobody wants to mate with you, you bitter old skrag.

Quote
niyad (39,140 posts)

5. well, according to the woman-haters, women are never full human beings.

and your boss was, to say the least, hypocritical, since the stance of the church is that NO contraception other than the rhythm method be used.

old joke: what do you call people who practice the rhythm method? answer: parents.

Delusional skrag.

The next time a ship hits an iceberg I hope the captain yells, "To the life boats! Women who aren't feminists and children first!"

Quote
Lee-Lee (1,970 posts)

7. I think it's more of orgasm envy

Women are capable of a lot more orgasms and a lot more enjoyment from sex than a man is- I've had many of my sexual partners express jealousy that they wish they could have as intense an experience during sex as women can with multiple orgasms and more intense orgasms.

That's the root of most of it, I think.

Quote
DirkGently (10,829 posts)

9. Motherhood is a tremendous power.

I remember studying Karen Horney's holistic approach to fictional characters, but don't remember this specific element.

Not too hard to see the threat to paternalism posed by the people who actually have the babies, though. So many attacks on women clearly orbit around resentment that men can't control the entire reproductive process, and therefore fear it.

Thus, the many ways a woman can be accused of "doing it wrong," whether it's being blamed for having too few babies, or too many, or (at least formerly) not enough boy babies, or not having the baby with the "right" man, or trying not to have a baby, or trying to have a job and also have a baby. So many rules to break, and crimes to commit, according to some.


It's almost like women once ruled the world with the power of womb, and men are terrified they will figure out how to take it back.

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ibegurpard (11,978 posts)

11. I have absolutely no conscious envy of the vagina

And my unwavering commitment to reproductive freedom is rooted in a deep seated value that it's no one else's goddam business.

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niyad (39,140 posts)

12. thank you. this, of course, does not apply to ALL men.

BTW -- this skrag has a quote from Susan B Anthony as her sig.

Need I remind the audience Anthony was pro-life?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027056833
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2015, 11:12:49 AM »
I couldn't get past the headline.  These people are insane.
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2015, 11:54:26 AM »
I don't want to have a vagina. I just want to use one from time to time.

And have sammiches made for me.
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Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2015, 02:06:21 PM »
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Delusional skrag.

The next time a ship hits an iceberg I hope the captain yells, "To the life boats! Women who aren't feminists and children first!"

 :-)
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Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2015, 02:36:24 PM »
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Delusional skrag.

The next time a ship hits an iceberg I hope the captain yells, "To the life boats! Women who aren't feminists and children first!"


Whoops wrong photo above.  Let me try this again.

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Offline FlaGator

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2015, 03:17:09 PM »
The OP just proves that you can't believe everything you read and when it comes to feminist writers you can't believe most of what you read.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2015, 03:22:24 PM »
I think the only things the vast majority of men envy is the ability to have multiple back-to-back orgasms and not having to hide a raging boner in public.
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Offline landofconfusion80

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2015, 03:24:17 PM »
Quote from: DumbAss Tanker on August 10, 2015, 03:22:24 PM
I think the only things the vast majority of men envy is the ability to have multiple back-to-back orgasms and not having to hide a raging boner in public.

wait....you're supposed to hide those? imagine my embarrassment...
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One Who Grows (244 posts)
20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)

Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2015, 03:32:24 PM »
I think the only things the vast majority of men envy is the ability to have multiple back-to-back orgasms and not having to hide a raging boner in public.
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Offline delilahmused

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2015, 03:38:26 PM »
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DirkGently (10,829 posts)

9. Motherhood is a tremendous power.

Oh, sweet Jesus! If motherhood is a tremendous power, why rip that power out of your womb? 

Quote
I remember studying Karen Horney's holistic approach to fictional characters, but don't remember this specific element.

Well, there's your problem right there. Fictional characters aren't real...

Quote
Not too hard to see the threat to paternalism posed by the people who actually have the babies, though. So many attacks on women clearly orbit around resentment that men can't control the entire reproductive process, and therefore fear it.

I've been hearing this all my adult life. How the hell is this a threat to paternalism? Women can't control the whole process either. Last time I checked, you harpies haven't figured out how to make your own sperm. And "reproduction" means you actually have to reproduce. Abortion, especially the kind that kills babies halfway out of the womb, doesn't fit that category.

Quote
Thus, the many ways a woman can be accused of "doing it wrong," whether it's being blamed for having too few babies, or too many, or (at least formerly) not enough boy babies, or not having the baby with the "right" man, or trying not to have a baby, or trying to have a job and also have a baby. So many rules to break, and crimes to commit, according to some.

What ARE you talking about? Anyone here accused a woman of "doing it wrong"? Maybe women who drink, smoke & take drugs while they're pregnant could be accused of "doing it wrong" so there's that. Being blamed for not having boys ended ages and ages ago when scientists discovered men were responsible for the sex of the baby (part of that shared reproductive thing). Who a woman reproduces with is none of my business. I've certainly wondered why some of my friends (male & female) married who they did, but that has nothing to do with patriarchy.

Quote
It's almost like women once ruled the world with the power of womb, and men are terrified they will figure out how to take it back.

Oh, honey, that whole mother goddess thing ended several thousand years ago. Superstition was big back then because they didn't know any better. In early hunter-gatherer societies they also worshiped hunting gods. If Grok whacked Grokette on the head with a club, dragged her into his cave by her hair & impregnated her, then he better damn well feed her dinner! But, bless your heart, if you haven't figured out how to take back this fictional power by now, you better just give it up.

Hell, the modern feminist goddesses you worship today still depend on men. Hillary would be nothing without Bill. No one would even know who she was. She puts up with his constant cheating (she ****ing enables him) just so she can hitch her wagon to his star. And what kind of feminist destroys the lives of other women for the crime of being raped and taken advantage of by a powerful man?

Conservative women seem to have figured out this whole self empowerment thing, though. Compare Phyllis Schlafly to Gloria Steinem. Schlafly is an attorney, wrote like 20 books, started the Eagle Forum (still exists today), almost single-handedly defeated the Equal Rights Amendment, served on several pro family boards and worked tirelessly to raise awareness of the importance of stay-at-home moms. Oh, and she did all this while raising 6 children. Steinem needed a rich sugar daddy just to keep her bitchy magazine afloat. Guess fish really do need a bicycle.

Cindie
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Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2015, 10:59:38 PM »
You just can't make stuff up this stupid.

Oh wait, .....yes you can.
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Liberal thinking is a two-legged stool and magical thinking is one of the legs, the other is a combination of self-loating and misanthropy.  To understand it, you would have to be able to sit on that stool while juggling two elephants, an anvil and a fragmentation grenade, sans pin.

"Accuse others of what you do." - Karl Marx

Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2015, 11:01:55 PM »
Quote from: delilahmused on August 10, 2015, 03:38:26 PM
Oh, sweet Jesus! If motherhood is a tremendous power, why rip that power out of your womb? 

Well, there's your problem right there. Fictional characters aren't real...

I've been hearing this all my adult life. How the hell is this a threat to paternalism? Women can't control the whole process either. Last time I checked, you harpies haven't figured out how to make your own sperm. And "reproduction" means you actually have to reproduce. Abortion, especially the kind that kills babies halfway out of the womb, doesn't fit that category.

What ARE you talking about? Anyone here accused a woman of "doing it wrong"? Maybe women who drink, smoke & take drugs while they're pregnant could be accused of "doing it wrong" so there's that. Being blamed for not having boys ended ages and ages ago when scientists discovered men were responsible for the sex of the baby (part of that shared reproductive thing). Who a woman reproduces with is none of my business. I've certainly wondered why some of my friends (male & female) married who they did, but that has nothing to do with patriarchy.

Oh, honey, that whole mother goddess thing ended several thousand years ago. Superstition was big back then because they didn't know any better. In early hunter-gatherer societies they also worshiped hunting gods. If Grok whacked Grokette on the head with a club, dragged her into his cave by her hair & impregnated her, then he better damn well feed her dinner! But, bless your heart, if you haven't figured out how to take back this fictional power by now, you better just give it up.

Hell, the modern feminist goddesses you worship today still depend on men. Hillary would be nothing without Bill. No one would even know who she was. She puts up with his constant cheating (she ****ing enables him) just so she can hitch her wagon to his star. And what kind of feminist destroys the lives of other women for the crime of being raped and taken advantage of by a powerful man?

Conservative women seem to have figured out this whole self empowerment thing, though. Compare Phyllis Schlafly to Gloria Steinem. Schlafly is an attorney, wrote like 20 books, started the Eagle Forum (still exists today), almost single-handedly defeated the Equal Rights Amendment, served on several pro family boards and worked tirelessly to raise awareness of the importance of stay-at-home moms. Oh, and she did all this while raising 6 children. Steinem needed a rich sugar daddy just to keep her bitchy magazine afloat. Guess fish really do need a bicycle.

Cindie

 :II:   :thumbs:  :hi5:

Excellent!
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Liberal thinking is a two-legged stool and magical thinking is one of the legs, the other is a combination of self-loating and misanthropy.  To understand it, you would have to be able to sit on that stool while juggling two elephants, an anvil and a fragmentation grenade, sans pin.

"Accuse others of what you do." - Karl Marx

Offline Lacarnut

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2015, 11:16:59 PM »
Quote from: Big Dog on August 10, 2015, 11:54:26 AM
I don't want to have a vagina. I just want to use one from time to time.

And have sammiches made for me.

H5
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Offline Chris_

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2015, 12:03:14 AM »
I've never had a vagina prepare a sandwich for me.  It sounds like it might be a little messy.
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Offline landofconfusion80

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2015, 05:44:21 AM »
Quote from: Chris_ on August 11, 2015, 12:03:14 AM
I've never had a vagina prepare a sandwich for me.  It sounds like it might be a little messy.

you don't want your PB&J tasting like tuna?
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One Who Grows (244 posts)
20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

I don't know how any of you can live with yourselves.

:)

Offline Big Dog

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2015, 06:28:16 AM »
Quote from: Chris_ on August 11, 2015, 12:03:14 AM
I've never had a vagina prepare a sandwich for me.  It sounds like it might be a little messy.

I like a good sloppy sammich!
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Offline 67 Rover

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2015, 07:19:27 AM »
Quote from: Chris_ on August 11, 2015, 12:03:14 AM
I've never had a vagina prepare a sandwich for me.  It sounds like it might be a little messy.

Messy is OK with me just keep the hair out of it.  :-)

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Offline SVPete

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2015, 08:22:29 AM »
My only comforting thought in this is that the few females who believe that nonsensical drivel - between aborting their (few) babies and being repellent to sane human beings - are unlikely to reproduce.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2015, 11:29:29 AM »
You know, if they had put vaginas on trees or rocks instead of wymin and then assigned every man his own personal vagina, we wouldn't have all the violence and trouble we have in this world.
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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2015, 11:55:29 AM »
Quote from: JohnnyReb on August 11, 2015, 11:29:29 AM
You know, if they had put vaginas on trees or rocks instead of wymin and then assigned every man his own personal vagina, we wouldn't have all the violence and trouble we have in this world.

'Nice knothole, baby!'
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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2015, 09:40:41 PM »
Quote
niyad (39,140 posts)

Womb and Vagina Envy--a primary disease of the woman-hating gestational slavers
Brought to you by the makers of Fart Rape and Manspreading
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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2015, 12:38:56 AM »
Quote from: Mr Mannn on August 11, 2015, 09:40:41 PM
Brought to you by the makers of Fart Rape and Manspreading

I find this whole manspreading things confusing. I've yet to be anywhere where a man wouldn't make room for someone else wanting to sit on a bench or whatever were they to ask.

Cindie
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Offline Mr Mannn

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2015, 01:37:33 AM »
Quote from: delilahmused on August 12, 2015, 12:38:56 AM
I find this whole manspreading things confusing. I've yet to be anywhere where a man wouldn't make room for someone else wanting to sit on a bench or whatever were they to ask.

Cindie
The goal was to criminalize normal human behavior...to punish men for sitting like men do. The Commies in NYC actually made Manspreading a crime. There was never a pressing need for justice.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2015, 08:27:11 AM »
Quote from: delilahmused on August 12, 2015, 12:38:56 AM
I find this whole manspreading things confusing. I've yet to be anywhere where a man wouldn't make room for someone else wanting to sit on a bench or whatever were they to ask.

Cindie

Your "problem" is obvious. You don't live in Feminazi-Progs' femi-verse.
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Offline miskie

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Re: Unappealing man-hating bull dyke thinks men want to be her
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2015, 09:30:51 AM »
Quote from: delilahmused on August 12, 2015, 12:38:56 AM
I find this whole manspreading things confusing. I've yet to be anywhere where a man wouldn't make room for someone else wanting to sit on a bench or whatever were they to ask.

Cindie

It is less about taking up two spaces to the feminazis, and more that men can sit in a way deemed inappropriate for women - the same is true with 'fart rape' - if a man farts loudly and publicly, it is often met with laughter. If a woman does it, it is met with disgust. The taking up two spaces thing via 'manspreading' is the wedge used to make it illegal.

As always, feminazis want to make "equality" an issue in ways that they aren't affected. For example, try bringing up requiring women to register for the draft at 18, or changing the 'women and children first' policy during an evacuation. - these topics always lead to fun & entertainment.
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