Obligatory,yearly "the USA sucks" thread for August 5th.

[Carl]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027044101

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 08:35 AM

Star Member yuiyoshida (9,450 posts)

Seventy years on, few Americans regret Enola Gay's mission


Washington (AFP) —

The Enola Gay was on its long flight back to its Pacific island base when co-pilot Captain Robert Lewis opened his log and scribbled down the many questions racing through his mind.

“Just how many Japs did we kill?” wondered Lewis after the dazzling silver B-29 bomber dropped the first atomic bomb over Hiroshima, Japan — and, in doing so, altered the course of history forever.

“I honestly have the feeling of groping for words to explain this… My God, what have we done?” he added in the cursive lettering of the day.

“After a few last looks (at the mushroom cloud), I honestly feel the Japs may give up before we land at Tinian,” where Enola Gay was stationed, he said.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/seventy-years-on-few-americans-regret-enola-gays-mission

Response to yuiyoshida (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 08:50 AM

PatrickforO (1,152 posts)
1. My dad was fighting in the Pacific when the bombs were dropped.

The feeling among the men in his unit was to be thankful they didn't have to try and land on Japan. He always maintained the bombs killed far fewer people than would have died had we invaded the Japanese mainland. This is because our Joint Chiefs anticipated casualties between 260,000 and 1 million Americans during such an invasion.

Still not good that we're the ONLY ones who have ever used these things in anger.

Response to PatrickforO (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 08:57 AM

linuxman (717 posts)
2. not good?

I'd say its pretty great, personally. Given the circumstances surrounding it all, I can understand why it went down the way it did. A terrible thing for sure, but then it wad just one more terrible thing in a long list of terrible things. War was and will always be hell.

Response to linuxman (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:10 AM

cheapdate (2,204 posts)
7. "War is hell" is not an excuse.

There are rules and conventions for war. Detonating an atomic bomb over a crowded city was a war crime on a horrific scale.

Response to yuiyoshida (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:03 AM

alarimer (13,520 posts)
6. Sign of a sick society that never believes it can do wrong.

They don't give a shit about the millions dead in any conflict we have started. They certainly don't give a shit about anyone but themselves, certainly not people who look, shall we say, different. They were willing to allow our government to intern American citizens because of their ancestry.

So, Americans are comfortable with this hideous atrocity. They are probably also comfortable with carpet bombing Laos and napalm as well.

Since when are American lives worth more than anyone else's? I guess since this country started. They certainly never gave a shit about the native population or about the millions enslaved.

A society not capable of reflection at all.

People regret Iraq and Afghanistan, but only because they cost so much in money and American lives. Other lives, not so much.

Response to yuiyoshida (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:14 AM

Star Member 7wo7rees (1,870 posts)
9. Incredibly sad moment in our history. Actually TRAGIC!! nt

Eat shit and die assholes. 

[franksolich]

Yeah, the usual case of primitives trying to prove their moral superiority--"oh, I wouldn't do such a thing myself," when in fact if given the opportunity, a primitive'd probably do something ten times worse.

The primitives' acceptance of slaughterhouses for infants gives lie to all such pretensions.

Probably the primitives, the literate ones at least, have read John Hersey's Hiroshima, which was a best-seller back in 1946.  My father had a copy of the book, published 1946 but I dunno if it was a "first edition" or not, in pristine condition that was passed on to one of my hippie older brothers, and then later to me.

When I clear out the "library," I usually eliminate the works of fiction first, as there's enough stuff in real life, real facts, to keep one busy more than a whole lifetime.  I don't waste my time reading fiction.  And so that particular book, a work of fiction, went to a thrift store eons ago.

I did however keep, and still have, Day One: Before Hiroshima and After, (Peter Wyden, 1984, Simon & Shuster), which is crammed full of real people and real events, that gives one a much better "take" on the issue, rather than some overwrought maudlinly sentimental fiction-book.  If one understands what was really going on, one inevitably concludes that the decision to drop the bomb, although a horrifying one, was a necessary one, and I for one hope Harry Truman never lost a minute's sleep over it.

[txradioguy]

Response to yuiyoshida (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:14 AM

Star Member 7wo7rees (1,870 posts)
9. Incredibly sad moment in our history. Actually TRAGIC!! nt

Tragic?  Hardly.  More like life saving for both sides in the conflict.

In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

They were expecting so many damn casualties from this mission that there was enough Purple Heart medals produced for up to a million wounded.

We were still issuing Purple Hearts to soldiers wounded or killed in Afghanistan and Iraq as last as 2005 that were produced 60 years prior.


If you want to talk about tragic...let's talk about FDR...a DEMOCRAT...running American versions of the NAZI concentration camps and filling them with Japanese-American citizens.

THAT is tragic.

[Carl]

Yeah, the usual case of primitives trying to prove their moral superiority--"oh, I wouldn't do such a thing myself," when in fact if given the opportunity, a primitive'd probably do something ten times worse.

The primitives' acceptance of slaughterhouses for infants gives lie to all such pretensions.

Probably the primitives, the literate ones at least, have read John Hersey's Hiroshima, which was a best-seller back in 1946.  My father had a copy of the book, published 1946 but I dunno if it was a "first edition" or not, in pristine condition that was passed on to one of my hippie older brothers, and then later to me.

When I clear out the "library," I usually eliminate the works of fiction first, as there's enough stuff in real life, real facts, to keep one busy more than a whole lifetime.  I don't waste my time reading fiction.  And so that particular book, a work of fiction, went to a thrift store eons ago.

I did however keep, and still have, Day One: Before Hiroshima and After, (Peter Wyden, 1984, Simon & Shuster), which is crammed full of real people and real events, that gives one a much better "take" on the issue, rather than some overwrought maudlinly sentimental fiction-book.  If one understands what was really going on, one inevitably concludes that the decision to drop the bomb, although a horrifying one, was a necessary one, and I for one hope Harry Truman never lost a minute's sleep over it.

There is hardly a day that goes by where the DUmp doesn`t drip red with the blood lust they have for those that disagree with them.

[RayRaytheSBS]

Response to yuiyoshida (Original post)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:03 AM

alarimer (13,520 posts)
6. Sign of a sick society that never believes it can do wrong.

They don't give a shit about the millions dead in any conflict we have started. They certainly don't give a shit about anyone but themselves, certainly not people who look, shall we say, different. They were willing to allow our government to intern American citizens because of their ancestry.

So, Americans are comfortable with this hideous atrocity. They are probably also comfortable with carpet bombing Laos and napalm as well.

Since when are American lives worth more than anyone else's? I guess since this country started. They certainly never gave a shit about the native population or about the millions enslaved.

A society not capable of reflection at all.

People regret Iraq and Afghanistan, but only because they cost so much in money and American lives. Other lives, not so much.

Response to linuxman (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 5, 2015, 09:10 AM

cheapdate (2,204 posts)
7. "War is hell" is not an excuse.

There are rules and conventions for war. Detonating an atomic bomb over a crowded city was a war crime on a horrific scale.

Uhhhhh... NO DUches, just no. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both LEGITIMATE military targets. Hiroshima had the headquarters of one of the divisions guarding Kyushu at it, which was one of the planned invasion points for Operation Olympic, the headquarters of the Imperial Japanese 2nd Army were there as well. Nagasaki was a ship-producing and weapons factory for the Imperial Japanese Navy, The Yamamoto, largest battleship ever created was manufactured there IIRC. So BOTH were legitimate MILITARY targets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

You say that there are rules and conventions of war, DUche. What about the rules and conventions JAPAN violated here:



That's Pearl harbor, HAWAII in case you forgot, DUches.

Oh and here too:


That was from the Bataan DEATH march, DUches. No atrocities commited there, now were there?

How about what the Japanese did to their fellow asians?


That's from 1936, the 'RAPE OF NANKING'

The Japanese Imperial Army was fanatical due to the Samurai culture of the nation of Japan at the time. When you had soldiers that didn't surrender for THREE DECADES after everyone else considered WWII to be over, what does that tell you about the determination of the common Japanese citizen?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/17/hiroo-onoda-japanese-soldier-dies

Once again, I have to quote the master:

"My mother said violence never solves anything." "So?" Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. "I'm sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that."

" … I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue and thoroughly immoral doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."

Robert Heinlein- Starship Troopers; Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.), p. 25; exchange between him and a student

You were right in your original statement, DUche; "War is hell" and if anyone would know that, it was the man it is attributed to: Willam Tecumsah Sherman. Sherman Realized that the only way, the ONLY way to truly 'win' a war, is to pummel your enemy into the ground until there is nothing left. Sherman meant that war is hell in that it you make it hell on earth for your opponent, you are relentless and lethal and unrelenting with violence of action until your enemy has no choice but to capitulate or be wiped from the face of the earth like the passenger pigeon.

Sherman probably also meant 'War is hell' in that it takes a toll seeing your friends and comrades dying for STUPIDITY, like we see happening today in those countries we are STILL AT WAR in, regardless of what lies your president is telling you.

One more quote from the master:

When you come right to it, it is easier to die than it is to use your head.
Robert Heinlein- Starship Troopers; Lt. Col. Jean V. Dubois (Ret.)

 Your ignorance is astounding, DUches, but not surprising. Report to Planned Parenthood for your Post-birth abortions posthaste. And save the resources of mother earth for people who are not COMPLETE IDIOTS.

[GOBUCKS]

No one who wasn't in the force being assembled to invade Japan, or who had a son, husband, or father in that force has standing to criticize the bombings.

No one who wasn't among the terrified west coast population can understand or have standing to criticize the internment of Japanese citizens.

Given what was known and available at the time, the United States handled World War II crises magnificently.

Had the bombs not been available the invasion would have proceeded, with millions of casualties.

The Russians were preparing to invade Japan from the north.

In the end, Japan would have been partitioned into North Japan and South Japan, exactly like Korea and Germany, but only after a bloodbath the like of which has never been seen.

All things considered, in the long run Japan was a bigger winner in WWII than any nation except the United States.

[thundley4]

All things considered, in the long run Japan was a bigger winner in WWII than any nation except the United States.

Are you sure the US was a bigger winner than Japan? Didn't we spend millions helping them rebuild?

[Rebel]

davidpdx (19,372 posts)
27. Please tell me what bullshit reason Korea was done

Vietnam I totally agree with you.

WTF? BOTH wars were fought for the SAME DAMN REASON! Only reason there's a free South Korea and an authoritarian North Korea is because we weren't inundated with hippy pussies in the 50's. Had those hippy pussies STFU about Vietnam, there's a good chance the entire nation would have been a free country. A one General Võ Nguyên Giáp CREDITED you leftists for us pulling out and leaving the nation to a bunch of communist bastards, followed by mass murders of south Vietnamese and the Montagnards. Bunch of ****ing traitors.

[txradioguy]

And the anti American...Anti war left has been trying to do the same thing to the American military in every conflict we've been in ever since.

[SVPete]

Yeah, the usual case of primitives trying to prove their moral superiority--"oh, I wouldn't do such a thing myself," when in fact if given the opportunity, a primitive'd probably do something ten times worse.

The primitives' acceptance of slaughterhouses for infants gives lie to all such pretensions.

Probably the primitives, the literate ones at least, have read John Hersey's Hiroshima, which was a best-seller back in 1946.  My father had a copy of the book, published 1946 but I dunno if it was a "first edition" or not, in pristine condition that was passed on to one of my hippie older brothers, and then later to me.

When I clear out the "library," I usually eliminate the works of fiction first, as there's enough stuff in real life, real facts, to keep one busy more than a whole lifetime.  I don't waste my time reading fiction.  And so that particular book, a work of fiction, went to a thrift store eons ago.

I did however keep, and still have, Day One: Before Hiroshima and After, (Peter Wyden, 1984, Simon & Shuster), which is crammed full of real people and real events, that gives one a much better "take" on the issue, rather than some overwrought maudlinly sentimental fiction-book.  If one understands what was really going on, one inevitably concludes that the decision to drop the bomb, although a horrifying one, was a necessary one, and I for one hope Harry Truman never lost a minute's sleep over it.

Hiroshima was required reading for me in high school English. It didn't shake my assessment of what was done, which was and is essentially what you wrote in your last sentence.