Marxists just want to be the black man's friend!

[dutch508]

AOR (94 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027000914

To End Racism and Police Brutality, End Capitalism!


-- by John Peterson

(Snip)

"The racism of the police is therefore not merely an ideological construction, the result of “bad people,” “bad will,” or “bad ideas.” Rather, it reflects a deeper objective reality. Social being determines social consciousness. Scarcity leads to a struggle over limited resources. Those who have the bulk of the wealth are in a minority, and must therefore hire a force able and willing to unleash devastating viciousness against the majority in order to “keep them in line.” But sheer violence is not sufficient. Other, far more subtle means must also be employed. The development of a system of skin-color-based discrimination during the rise of capitalism and the revival of chattel slavery became an indispensable weapon in the “divide and rule” arsenal of the capitalists. By getting the exploited and oppressed to fight each other over scraps, attention can be drawn away from the real relations of wealth and power in society."

(Snip)

"It is the structural racism of the capitalist system that leads to a racist outlook and ideology—not the other way around. There's no question that there is a heavily racist component in the targeting, degree, and frequency of police brutality. Marxists do not reduce this or any other complex social phenomenon “only” and mechanically to class. But in the final analysis, if there were no classes, there would be no need for police, and without police, no police brutality. Only in a society of superabundance, in which there is no scarcity, and therefore nothing life and death to fight over, will people's prejudices begin to melt away. This is why Marxists continually explain that there is no lasting antidote to the venom of racism within the limits of capitalism, which has tailored and compartmentalized this society to benefit the rule of the bourgeoisie."

(Snip)

"The scandalous decisions not to indict the police involved in murdering Mike Brown and Eric Garner have brought people out on the streets in a way we haven't seen in the US quite some time. For many people, the realization that there is persistent racial, gender and other forms of discrimination, and that this is a systemic component of capitalism, is an important first step towards arriving at a more fully developed class consciousness."

(Snip)

"So while the US Marxists have participated in dozens of these protests, spoken at several, and even organized a handful, our primary task at the present time is to "patiently explain" and to connect with those seeking an explanation and longer-term perspective for how we can collectively change the system once and for all. Without serious organization and a clear set of demands linked to the broader issues facing the working class and youth—such as jobs, higher wages, indebtedness, healthcare, and education—the movement will inevitably tend to dissipate. However, all of these problems will remain, which will only generate more and even larger movements in the future."


Full article at link....


http://www.marxist.com/to-end-racism-and-police-brutality-end-capitalism.htm

There is no police brutality in Communist Countries?

JI7 (52,259 posts)
14. can you give examples where it has happened and racism or other bigotry went away ?

Cheese Sandwich (1,875 posts)
17. There are zero examples of capitalism ending racism.

It could be time to try something different.

In this lesson, we explore the brutal rule of Joseph Stalin in the Soviet Union, from 1928 to 1953. Stalin radically transformed the economy of the Soviet Union, while also terrorizing its people...

http://study.com/academy/lesson/the-soviet-union-under-stalin.html

FrodosPet (3,267 posts)
53. In other words

Just make shit up as we go along.

Why don't socialists ever want to go into detail about the day-to-day workings of a socialist system? All I ever see is proclamations about destroying capitalism, with very little substance about how to pay for the hundred plus millions of people who will be government employees in a system where there will no longer be private enterprise to provide funding.

It's kinda like hooking a motor up to a generator, and then using the generator to power the motor. Even the most efficient system will require outside input, otherwise friction and resistance will wind it down to a stop.

Cheese Sandwich (1,875 posts)
54. Workers control of production.

Democratic control of communities. Probably nested councils of delegates or something like that. Basic guarantees for jobs and health care and stuff like that.

There's not like necessarily one right answer. People write volumes about it and there is a ton of stuff available for free on the internet. If you're interested follow what interests you. If not ok.

This was a thread about the relationship between racism and capitalism and the answer seemed sufficient to whoever was involved at the time so there was no need to go off an a tangent about different socialist ideas for how to organize town councils and stuff.

I gave a shorthand response that would quickly indicate to a person with background knowledge a certain general flavor of socialism.

What about blacks in Cuba?

Cheese Sandwich (1,875 posts)
22. If you think racism in Cuba is bad you should take a look at the United States, it's 100 times worse

Bainesbane- Frank's bit-titted over educated lover, chimes in on slavery.
 

BainsBane (32,855 posts)
31. "free labor"

You are not calling slavery "free labor." FFS. I'm familiar with the origins of racism that emerged as a justification for slavery. My point is that slavery, according to Marx, is a pre-capitalist mode of production. The idea that slavery has no relationship to racism today is completely and absolutely wrong. Its evolution can be charted through the development of laws enforcing slavery.

Slave owners showed a clear preference for African labor over, for example, enslaved Indians. Sugar mill owners in Brazil estimated African slaves to be worth four times that of an Indian. The preference was not racial but had to do with the strength, skill brought from W Africa, and the fact they were unfamiliar with the land and therefore had greater difficulty running away. At that point, however, the 16th century, the justification for slavery remained religious rather than racial. Racism emerged in conjunction with slavery--but slavery is not capitalism. I repeat, it is a pre-capitalist mode of production. Fernando Novais, borrowing from Eric Williams, argues it provided the primitive accumulation of capital that gave rise to capitalism, but that is not the same as being capitalist itself. Orthodox Marxists define capitalism as being characterized by free-wage labor. Your use of the term free labor is the sort of thing one sees in undergraduate essays. Slave labor was not "free," not to slave owners. One of the advantages of free-wage labor under capitalism is it actually was cheaper. They pay wages only when they need laborers, don't have to maintain them during the dead season, and have no up front costs. Free-wage labor is variable capital, whereas slave labor was fixed. The abolition of slavery was therefore an essential stage in the development of capitalism.

 

Cheese Sandwich (1,875 posts)
41. I think you are confusing slave mode of production with slave as commodity in capitalist system.

The relationship of slave with owner was a slave mode of production, clearly, and which you explained well, better than I could.

But in the capitalist marketplace the slave was a commodity, like sugar, cotton or horses.

Here you can see a capitalist market place where slaves were bought and sold.

[photo of slave market]

This was the beginning of American racism as white people were given the privileged positions over blacks for the purpose of profiting the capitalist financiers who were dealing in slaves as a commodity. After the civil war this continued with Jim Crow and segregation until today when we still have a lot of this going on. The system of white privilege does exist to keep black people on the bottom.

No... no, it wasn't.

Star Member BainsBane (32,855 posts)
7. For a less reductionist Marxist take on race

I suggest the International Socialist Review: http://isreview.org/topic/race-and-class

 

AOR (94 posts)
20. Institutionilized racism is a by-product...of early white European capitalist social relations. There is no other objective historical narrative that proves otherwise. This is common knowledge among the actual left.

BainsBane (32,855 posts)
38. Provide evidence
What do you mean by "early white European social relations"? When, where? According to whose analysis?
Marx was first and foremost a historian. History depends on evidence. Where is yours?

I am so waiting on the NADIN to appear.

[Big Dog]

It is so much fun to watch them tear at each other.

Go, Alex, go! Don't let that penis-bearer mansplain history and economics to you. His wedding tackle makes his opinion meaningless!

 

(I have $5 on Alex getting put in time out -again- within 24 hours.)

[SVPete]

Those idiots actually believe socialism would eliminate scarcity? In what socialist-Communist country has that ever been true?! Shelves empty of desired consumer goods was a constant part of life in the USSR. Many of the famines and mass starvations of the 20th and 21st Centuries were government-caused ... socialist and Communist governments. Just ask the Ukrainian, Chinese, Ethiopian, and North Korean peoples about that latter!

As for racism, ask the Chechens and other Asiatic minorities about racism in the USSR. Ask the Tibetans and non-Han Chinese about racism in China.

[dutch508]

THE NADIN SPEAKETH!

nadinbrzezinski (139,752 posts)
68. Only problem with this is...that racism and slavery have existed for far longer than capitalism, or our current system, which is not.

nadinbrzezinski (139,752 posts)
78. I disagree. India has had a caste system going back hundreds of years, if not longer.

We know Israel was a caste system.

Our modern caste system... is also, like those in the past, a form of structural racism.

One group is better than the other becuase of birth lottery.

AOR (108 posts)
83. I asked you for research and historical analysis that proves the existence of institutionalized racism before the introduction of capitalist commodity production. Not your opinion. Do you have that research ?

nadinbrzezinski (139,752 posts)
86. My opinion is based on history

here from the junior high school module of social studies on India

http://www.ushistory.org/civ/8b.asp

and a book on slavery in the ancient world

https://books.google.com/books?id=t0hXPgAACAAJ&dq=ancient+israel+and+slavery&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBGoVChMIt9v-r7HyxgIVzZWICh0OXgmf

Also Michele Alexander is the most recent American to compare the current social american system to a caste system not unlike that of India.

You might want to pick up her book "The New Jim Crow."

This is one of the major criticisms of New Marxism, that tries to explain all though one lens.

I love EP thomson and some of his observations are on point, but this is not it.

AOR (108 posts)
88. Class based discrimination...like ancient slavery. Far from the institutionalized racism that is being discussed here. I don't think this disputes the findings that institutionalized racism arose out of the modern day slave trade and the rise of capitalist commodity production.

What does this idiot think institutionalized racism is?

nadinbrzezinski (139,752 posts)
91. Go ahead and continue to believe that it was not institutionalized. India and the US have way too many parallels in that respect.

And with that good day sir.

MineralMan (74,597 posts)
87. Karl Marx is long dead. Name a successful society based on his writings.

Thanks.

AOR (108 posts)
90. Right Wing talking point and disguised red-baiting...I'll pass Mineral Man. I can find that and debate that elsewhere. Thanks for your efforts though. Old, tired, and shopworn slogans to avoid discussions of the destructive effects of Capitalism. The kind of posts you and a few others have made in this thread are those that belong at Free Republic or one of a hundred other red-baiting Right Wing forums.

AOR (108 posts)
104. You may also see post 80 for response..."show me a successful Marxist country" is a Right Wing McCarthy talking point. Has no place on a left forum.Marxism is a scientific critique of capitalist social relations. Anyone who understands Marx understands that. "Show me a successful Marxist country" is not a question that has any relevance to the critique of Capitalism.

Yet it is you who want to replace Democracy with Marxism as so stated before in your posts... so how is it not relative to the discussion? Just because you don't ahve an answer doesn't make it not relative.

AOR (108 posts)
80. The discussion is the critque of capitalist social relations...not a caricature you have created in your mind of what an alternative might look like. The problem is not innovation...the problem is the spoils and control of innovation are in the wrong hands. Better for the people to decide the distribution of innovation than a dictatorship of capitalist parasites.

 

AOR (108 posts)
81. Bigotry against different culture probably...institutionlized racism... not even close.

please provide your research that proves otherwise.

AOR (108 posts)
119. I figured it would be a stretch thinking posting...

material from a Marx website at DU would go over all that well. Some points to consider though for those who might be interested. Not many takers from the looks of it.The response wasn't quite as bad as I expected though. At least nobody responded with kill all the Commies now!!!

Well... now that you mentioned it....

[SVPete]

MineralMan (74,597 posts)
87. Karl Marx is long dead. Name a successful society based on his writings.

Thanks.

Ouch! Where and how did that bit of sanity creep into this sermon?

AOR (108 posts)
90. Right Wing talking point and disguised red-baiting...I'll pass Mineral Man. I can find that and debate that elsewhere. Thanks for your efforts though. Old, tired, and shopworn slogans to avoid discussions of the destructive effects of Capitalism. The kind of posts you and a few others have made in this thread are those that belong at Free Republic or one of a hundred other red-baiting Right Wing forums.

The predictable attempted dismissal.

And speaking of unexpected sanity, what's up with nads? That slavery and racism predate capitalism is obviously true, but what's with her daring to point that out on DU?!

[Carl]

I wonder what would actually happen to the inner city thug culture and the useless parasitic class if Marxism/Communism was to reign?

Here is a hint DUmbasses.

[JohnnyReb]

the destructive effects of Capitalism.....the non-lazy people have more than DUmmies and they feel bad about that..

[zeitgeist]

the destructive effects of Capitalism.....the non-lazy people have more than DUmmies and they feel bad about that..

I am going to confess to posting a link on a gut instinct as I have just done a quick scan on this thread but here goes. 

http://journal.ijreview.com/2015/07/245346-j-edgar-hoover-testified-1967-race-riots-america-described-sounds-eerily-familiar/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Partners&utm_term=PRM3

I am not saying I was a fan of J. Edgar, although I hear he may have looked sharp in a camisole, fishnet, and heels,  that is not to say his fashion sense had bearing on his knowledge of communist tactics.

The fact that McCarthy[ism] and the red menace were neutralized as unwarranted hysteria does not mean it did not, and does not still, exist.  Blacks have been duped into believing lots of things.  Can I get an Amen to that from the Choir?

[BlueStateSaint]

Damn, Zeit, it's eerie just how much that describes today.

[JohnnyReb]

http://journal.ijreview.com/2015/07/245346-j-edgar-hoover-testified-1967-race-riots-america-described-sounds-eerily-familiar/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=Partners&utm_term=PRM3

.  Can I get an Amen to that from the Choir?

How 'bout one from the amen corner.

[obumazombie]

I am thinking that when coach franksolich's cousin nadin says..."And with that good day sir."
She is saying something akin to...bless your heart.
At least it's not "cute" or "adorable".

[I_B_Perky]

Those idiots actually believe socialism would eliminate scarcity? In what socialist-Communist country has that ever been true?! Shelves empty of desired consumer goods was a constant part of life in the USSR. Many of the famines and mass starvations of the 20th and 21st Centuries were government-caused ... socialist and Communist governments. Just ask the Ukrainian, Chinese, Ethiopian, and North Korean peoples about that latter!

As for racism, ask the Chechens and other Asiatic minorities about racism in the USSR. Ask the Tibetans and non-Han Chinese about racism in China.

Venezuela is the latest example of how a socialist took a fairly thriving economy and turned it to shit in less than 10 years. Now there are shortages of just about everything down there.

Personally I say we send all the dummies down there so they can enjoy the fruits of the economic/government system they champion.

[zeitgeist]

Venezuela is the latest example of how a socialist took a fairly thriving economy and turned it to shit in less than 10 years. Now there are shortages of just about everything down there.

Personally I say we send all the dummies down there so they can enjoy the fruits of the economic/government system they champion.

I keep thinking a 'go fund me' campaign for DUmmies wishing to emigrate to a Socialist Worker's Paradise (with no return).  It could rid impacted areas of DUmmies faster than you can say Jack Sprat.

[Karin]

Right Wing talking point and disguised red-baiting...I'll pass Mineral Man. I can find that and debate that elsewhere. Thanks for your efforts though. Old, tired, and shopworn slogans to avoid discussions of the destructive effects of Capitalism.

A)  I notice that you couldn't answer him.  B)  You come across as a real asshole, AOR.  C)  Kill all commies now.   

[FaC]

FrodosPet (3,267 posts)
53. In other words

Just make shit up as we go along.

Why don't socialists ever want to go into detail about the day-to-day workings of a socialist system? All I ever see is proclamations about destroying capitalism, with very little substance about how to pay for the hundred plus millions of people who will be government employees in a system where there will no longer be private enterprise to provide funding.

It's kinda like hooking a motor up to a generator, and then using the generator to power the motor. Even the most efficient system will require outside input, otherwise friction and resistance will wind it down to a stop.

FrodosPet just admitted that the government's sole support is private enterprise and the government is not a perpetual motion machine. I am sure that this quote will be usable sometime in the future...

[obumazombie]

So all the libs need to do now is build a perpetual motion machine that produces excess power in the form of government largesse.