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marmar (67,214 posts)

Dutch City to Experiment With Universal Basic Income

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/dutch_city_to_experiment_with_universal_basic_income_20150625


via truthdig:

The Dutch city of Utrecht is considering introducing a universal basic income—an income unconditionally granted to all its residents on an individual basis, without a means test or work requirement.

The city has teamed up with a local university to place people on welfare on a living income, to analyze how a system of welfare without requirements will function.

As the Basic Income Earth Network explains, basic income is “a form of minimum income guarantee that differs from those that now exist in various European countries in three important ways: it is paid to individuals rather than households; it is paid irrespective of any income from other sources; and it is paid without requiring the performance of any work or the willingness to accept a job if offered.”

The Independent reports:

The concept is to allow people to choose to work more flexible hours in a less regimented society, allowing more time for care, volunteering and study.

The Netherlands as a country is no stranger to less traditional work environments - it has the highest proportion of part time workers in the EU, 46.1 per cent. However, Utrecht’s experiment with welfare is expected to be the first of its kind in the country.

Alderman for Work and Income Victor Everhardt told DeStad Utrecht: “One group ... will have compensation and consideration for an allowance, another group with a basic income without rules and of course a control group which adhere to the current rules.”

“Our data shows that less than 1.5 percent abuse the welfare, but, before we get into all kinds of principled debate about whether we should or should not enter, we need to first examine if basic income even really works.

“What happens if someone gets a monthly amount without rules and controls? Will someone passively at home or do people develop themselves and provide a meaningful contribution to our society?”

The city is also planning to talk to other municipalities about setting up similar experiments, including Nijmegen, Wageningen, Tilburg and Groningen, awaiting permission from The Hague in order to do so.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN (8,824 posts)

2. The city should at the same time offer volunteer positions for people with free time on their hands
 
to work on projects the city needs done.

Not everybody who wants to help out has enough self-direction or information to do so. Provide a structured setting in which they can do useful work for the city, and you'll probably get more done than simply giving folks a way to have free time.

Why?

If I can sit on my ass all day why would I go do work that even the free market can't support?

mmonk (48,875 posts)

3. One thing that happens with less or falling wages, demand goes down as well as tax receipts.
 
The slack needs to be taken up somewhere.

Only to an insipid Proglodyte is the cure for falling wages is to work for free.

melm00se (2,785 posts)

13. How will unions react to that?

Mightn't these "voluntary" positions normally be filled by union members probably at a higher wage scale?

^ good mole

Erich Bloodaxe BSN (8,824 posts)

25. Depends on what the job is, I'd think.
 
And whether it's simply something the city simply otherwise won't do. Don't let volunteers do jobs that are already being done, but things that aren't even on the agenda now. If the work causes the city to have more money, it can raise the universal stipend as a result. Without private corporations in the mix, you might actually wind up with everyone in the city getting 'union wages'.

Where does all this money come from?

DFW (18,252 posts)

7. Livable if you can afford it!

We just placed a newbie there, and the rent for her tiny third floor walkup (like 400 sq. Ft.) apartment is 1250 Euros a month.

TBF (28,632 posts)

5. We've been forced to this model

by global capitalism. When the few at the top control all the funds something has to give.

Maybe some good will come out of it if folks can actually have more time to do things they enjoy.

In my view this is only the tip of the iceberg however. If we've finally (thankfully) outgrown capitalism, it is time to figure out how to pool resources to save our planet.

upaloopa (7,147 posts)

8. Imagine the wealthy sharing free time with the peasants
 
what will become of them?

TBF (28,632 posts)

23. It starts small scale
 
but we have to realize there is an enormous amount of wealth in the US - it's just sitting in too few hands.

I'm hoping that at some point (globally) we are able to do away with currency and just share resources as needed. A utopian view I know, but these types of experiments (basic income) are the stepping stones that can bring us closer to a world that is more concerned with people than things.

These people deserve to be slaves.

RoccoR5955 (8,421 posts)

26. You are talking >gasp< socialism, or even (gods forbid) communism.

In their purest forms, these forms of governing would be the way. They never seem to work properly in real life, because of individual greed. First get rid of greed, then these forms may just work for EVERYONE.

And then everyone can have a Miley Kunis clone!

TBF (28,632 posts)

28. Is it that individual greed is inherent

or that certain methods encourage greed?

The best example of a non-fascist communist society was the Paris Commune. They survived a whole two months or so and then were shut down by outside forces. I don't know how you transition to socialism without a strong military, yet that strong military is going to encourage a more authoritarian approach (which is exactly how you don't want to govern). It really has been a catch-22 and something that socialists spend a lot of time talking about.

TBF once read Paris Commune and gave no analysis beyond that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

The2ndWheel (6,947 posts)

16. Civilization is just a resource concentration mechanism

Pooling resources is part of what makes the planet need to be saved. Organized humanity is what it needs to be saved from.

A basic income wouldn't be outgrowing capitalism either. It would just be the result of it. More and more people just aren't all that needed. Since we can't let those of us who fall into that category just die, then give them money to spend to consume the mass amounts of products that are out there that they're not needed to make.

It's not outgrowing capitalism, and it's not going to save the planet. A basic income will be human beings not having to work to get paid(just like trust fund babies and the rest of the 1%), propped up by a foundation of machines that don't have to be paid or have to consume in order to work(sort of like the poor working class, just without the need for food).

Recursion (39,185 posts)

22. This can work very well with capitalism, particularly after the robots come
 
Once they don't need workers anymore, just tax them and deliver a universal income to drive a service economy.

restorefreedom (573 posts)

19. i am very intrigued by this

and as more things become automated, and as more people try to string together a number of part-time jobs to try to make it, and people working longer because they can't afford to retire, and people who need two jobs to survive or want two incomes to have a standard of living that they wish to live, it's clear they just aren't going to be enough jobs for people who want to work. And at the same time, there are tons of volunteer organizations who desperately need help. You can work with people you can work with animals you can work with the environment, in libraries, outdoors, it's endless. And while they will always be a proportion of people who will sit around and watch Jerry Springer, I think many people will volunteer their time or create works of art, or become caregivers to family members, or in some other way contribute to the community. I can't wait to see what happens.

daredtowork (3,002 posts)

32. Nice!
 
It would be good to see these experiments done at State levels, though. When they are done at a low level, there tends to be financing problems or some claims that the "good people" are having to do all the work to support the "riff raff" - leading to fevered and strident attempts to ship the riff raff out of town. However, if such programs are implemented at a high level, there is less worry about who is being "too generous" and everyone can just be proud of doing the right thing and get on with being decent human beings again. And with all the money we save on extravagant poverty bureaucracies and investigation petty "welfare fraud", we could start adding all sorts of civic amenities for all: water fountains, benches, free shuttles, post office stamp subsidies, disability accommodations, crisis services, public art - vast amounts of funds would be freed up. Of course there is no such thing as utopia, but I think people would be surprised at the strides we could take if we hadn't sunk all out tax money into surveilling the poor.

[Carl]

Lazy,worthless ****ers.

What if Bill Gates was given a basic welfare subsistence?
None of you mutts would have seen the light of day.

[I_B_Perky]

I'm guessing that the dummies will try to emigrate en masse to that city.

[JohnnyReb]

I'm guessing that the dummies will try to emigrate en masse to that city.

I can't contribute much to their travel expenses but I can build a few leaky rowboats. Now, if someone will provision them with beer and CHEETOES, we'll be in business.

[98ZJUSMC]

The (D)Ummie taking about the robots actually has a point.  What do you do in an economy with few jobs?  The ramifications of such are a useless and weak society of takers.

Period.   

I hope I never see it.

[98ZJUSMC]

I can't contribute much to their travel expenses but I can build a few leaky rowboats. Now, if someone will provision them with beer and CHEETOES, we'll be in business.

Waste beer?!?!?! Are you INSANE?????   

[BlueStateSaint]

Waste beer?!?!?! Are you INSANE?????   

Sometimes you have to make sacrifices, to properly bait the trap . . .

[I_B_Perky]

I can't contribute much to their travel expenses but I can build a few leaky rowboats. Now, if someone will provision them with beer and CHEETOES, we'll be in business.

If the dummies were to renounce their US citizenship forever I would go into debt to help them get there. I think weed would be a better lure, though. 

[miskie]

I'm guessing that the dummies will try to emigrate en masse to that city.

It won't be long until that town is forced to limit numbers of new residents from the rest of the country, and deny residency to foreign immigrants.

Then the fun will begin !

[zeitgeist]

We need a gofundme account set up to send some of these dunderheads to a nice communist labor camp for the summer.  Let them get a little agrarian reform under their nails.  I suggest starting with teachers, say the DUmmy jeep primitive for example.  Maybe a little time cutting cane in Cuba? Give them an mp3 with Harry Belafonte hits and off they go.   

[thundley4]

That would be a great population booster for the moocher class.  If the basic minimum income is paid to each member of the household, then why not keep popping babies to get more money?  Oh wait, they ****ing do that here already.

[Mr Mannn]

The (D)Ummie taking about the robots actually has a point.  What do you do in an economy with few jobs? The ramifications of such are a useless and weak society of takers.

Socialism has a solution. Kill the useless eaters.

[diesel driver]

If you want more of something, you subsidize it.
If you want less of something, you tax it.

DUmmies want more "free $hit", and less wealth.

And apparently, this Dutch city needs more moochers.

[RayRaytheSBS]

If you want more of something, you subsidize it.
If you want less of something, you tax it.

DUmmies want more "free $hit", and less wealth.

And apparently, this Dutch city needs more moochers.

A great summation of the economic theory of today. DUches want everyone to be 'equal', whatever that is supposed to be. But yet they still haven't explained who is going to pay for this when the rich get tired of getting ripped off. 

[tanstaafl]

It won't be long until that town is forced to limit numbers of new residents from the rest of the country, and deny residency to foreign immigrants.

Then the fun will begin !

My money is on taking the benefit away.

In other words, "Oops, sorry. Our bad." 

[miskie]

My money is on taking the benefit away.

In other words, "Oops, sorry. Our bad." 

Have you noticed how this very thing happened in Bernie's home state, and its being totally ignored ? "Single Payer" was enacted in 2011, and killed at the end of 2014 once the state realized it couldn't pay for it without bucketloads of other people's money.

IIRC it was going to require something like 11% of Vermont's business profits, and 9-10% of everyone's paychecks to make it happen.

So yeah.. - it ended with "Oops, sorry. Our bad." - and magically, nobody seemed to care. Because it's only Democrats involved. If it were a damned, dirty rethug who ended the program in Vermont, there would still be protests on the news nightly.

[Karin]

particularly after the robots come
 
Once they don't need workers anymore, just tax them and deliver a universal income to drive a service economy.

Tax who?  The robots?  Robots don't have income, taxable or otherwise.  "Just tax them."  The democratick universal response. 

What a bunch of moonbat bullshit.  Benches and public art for all!!!  Caring and Sharing!!!

TBF is a communist piece of shit.  She's currently sullying the great state of Texas, IIRC, of all places. 

[Ptarmigan]

Just another welfare program.

[freedumb2003b]

So, just as a thought experiment, I asked myself "I am a baker in said town."

Now that I can get free money, I have to ask myself -- is the marginal income I get worth getting up at 4:00 AM and working until 10:00 PM every day?  And If I answer yes, then I know there will be others who answer no.

I am either leaving the business or jacking up my prices - BIG.

[JohnnyReb]

So, just as a thought experiment, I asked myself "I am a baker in said town."

Now that I can get free money, I have to ask myself -- is the marginal income I get worth getting up at 4:00 AM and working until 10:00 PM every day?  And If I answer yes, then I know there will be others who answer no.

I am either leaving the business or jacking up my prices - BIG.

ME! I'd say the hell with it. Let them eat cake.

[diesel driver]

ME! I'd say the hell with it. Let them eat cake.

I say to hell with it, LET THEM STARVE!