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Offline franksolich

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primitives discuss home construction
« on: May 24, 2015, 08:49:06 PM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11583707

Oh my.

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)   Sat May 23, 2015, 03:44 PM

question about residential construction in the past versus now
 
Through the years, I've gotten the impression that residential home construction quality, in general, has gone down. I have no hard data on that and I've never been in the industry. I know codes in certain locations (like Miami for hurricanes or California for earthquakes) have gone up.

Is this just urban legend-ish stuff I've been exposed to, or is there some truth to that ? Thanks for your patience with my sincere question. 

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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 03:51 PM

1. What's the urban legend stuff to which you refer? Architect and builder here.
 
Well, I have a professional degree in architecture, not a license, and years in the trades, and done construction in the East and the West.

Pretty qualified to answer, if I do say so myself.

Homes today in California are more well designed and built, typically, than most homes in California build from the 60's into the 70's or so.

Our progressive building standards, especially related to energy efficiency, are largely responsible for that.

However, I'll take a well designed home from, say, 1910 through 1920 over either other era.

I had a home built in 1907, thick walls, lots of light, full basement, thick foundation walls, good passive solar.

It had been remodeled in the 30s to replace the wood lath and plaster with rocklath and plaster, a gypsum board with holes then scratch and finish coats of plaster. Crazy solid!

In some ways, the cheap stuff is cheaper than the cheap stuff was in the past: Cheap hollow-core doors and MDF cabinets didn't exist back then, so what we had was better.

Today we have very efficient windows and doors, on the other hand, so that's better than it was.

Urban legend? Tell me more! 

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)   Sat May 23, 2015, 03:54 PM

2. oh, just muttering over...
 
"the walls are thinner" or "everything is built like a crackerbox now" or "things were built to last back then".

That sort of stuff. I've never heard anyone defend current building standards and methods, so I'm glad to read your post! That's why I asked, dispel my ignorance.

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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 03:59 PM

3. Frankly, they're correct about thinner walls and some component's ability to last.
 
If we're talking about tract home quality or average middle-low quality, they're sort of correct.

A 1920 home would have had significantly larger framing members. A two by four was actually two by four inches.

Subfloors were tongue and grove, one inch or better, then hardwood floor over that.

Ceramic tiles were laid in a thick bed of mortar, seriously thick and sturdy!

Tubs were cast iron, not fiberglass.

As engineers learned how to trim here and there, they did that and the utility of things didn't suffer that badly.

Today, the best built homes are using bigger framing members, 2 x 6's, and the tile is set in thick mortar, and they'll use 5/8 drywall.

Just like the old days!

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:07 PM

4. my condo is exhibit A, sort of
 
I would have gladly paid a bit more to have soundproofed walls and floors. Maybe I'm in the very small minority, but I think quiet is a basic component of a residence. It was built in 1984, so I have no idea how the more recent condos are built.

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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:27 PM

6. You can put a fist through a modern wall. Don't try that with a pre-war home.
 
And, your mileage may vary from state to state, region to region.

Over the past 50 years, modern is generally better.

However, even today, some states like N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Alaska, W. Virginia Wyoming and Mississippi and others resist energy efficiency codes.

http://aceee.org/state-policy/scorecard

https://energypriorities.com/2014/10/best-worst-states-u-s-energy-efficiency/

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:29 PM

7. the resistance is because the local industry is afraid it will hurt sales ?
 
Did I guess that right ?

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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:41 PM

9. Part of it is frontier resistance to big government, and the energy lobby.
 
Every one of those states has a stake in the energy industry.

Coal in Appalachia, petroleum in Alaska and Mississippi, natural gas in the Dakotas.

They're Red states, and fiercely resistant to regulations, even when they're in their best interest.*

True, better buildings cost a little bit more but after the investment is recovered in just two to eight years, it's more cost effective.

They don't think long-term.*

Though the folks I've met in Alaska are smarter than that, they build smart.

*said by a primitive who's anti-Hillary, who obviously has no idea where his own best interests lie.

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:47 PM

10. Thanks for your time with this, NYC_SKP
 
You definitely nailed it there. Hopefully my son's generation (he's 19) will force through better codes and more energy-efficient homes and solar power! All forms of renewable energy and not fossil fuel. I think price will be the real driver in all that.

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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)   Sat May 23, 2015, 05:00 PM

11. You're welcome. I now work entirely in the realm of energy efficiency and renewables.
 
I even joined Governor Granholm in being a speaker at an energy conference in Anchorage.

She was keynote and we had time to chat. I was on a panel.

Here's a pic of me and her from that:

after which a photograph

OMG she is so smart and pretty!!!

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Warpy (82,535 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:15 PM

5. Generally speaking, standardized building codes
 
and mandated inspections have made it safer.

However, industry has managed to ram through a few things that are now biting homeowners on the butts, expensively, like PVC tubing within concrete slabs as water supplies. Settling and age are causing it to fail and some homeowners are facing having the whole house replumbed above ground with copper.

I lived in New England, where I saw some pretty amazing things in old construction to the point I was wondering why the place was still standing. Often reclaimed lumber picked up after storms was used in those old houses. You never knew how close the studs were because it varied from stud to stud and everything was hidden behind lath and horsehair plaster. If you didn't have covered wiring running along the baseboards, you knew it was knob and tube or worse, like wiring insulated with tar that would flake off if a truck rumbled by outside.

Give me new construction any day, thanks, or enough money to gut an old house down to the studs and exterior sheathing and rebuild it.

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murielm99 (14,382 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:37 PM

8. I think we all know that older homes
 
can be money pits. I have never lived in anything else, and maybe I have been lucky.

We looked at buying newer places, and found them lacking.

My dad always said that my first house, built in 1951, and the farmhouse I live in now were more well-constructed than anything he bought, built much later.

I live in a farmhouse that is more than one hundred years old. When we have refurbished, we had a hard time finding the quality materials we wanted. We had a hard time finding the people to do the work, too. Many of them wanted to do things the cheap and easy way. But the right people are out there.

One of the great things about my house is the natural ventilation. It was built with that in mind. In the summer, if we open the front and back doors and run the ceiling fan, we don't have to use the air conditioning all the time.

The woodwork is another great thing. We have refinished the floors and replaced some doors. Otherwise, it is solid and beautiful.

Heating can be a drawback. In an older home, there was not always central heating. We have had problems keeping the upstairs cool enough or warm enough for modern standards. Many people with homes like mine put in window air conditioners in the upstairs bedrooms. They use more blankets in the winter. They understand that an older home is is going to be like that, unless they invest in redoing the heating and cooling ducts extensively. We invested in new windows and sealed the foundation.

If you live in an older home, there can be drawbacks. But I will keep my house. 

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Mosby (5,060 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 07:26 PM

13. I suspect that there are a lot of regional differences
 
I live in Phx in a house built in 1972, it's has block walls, copper plumbing and 12 gauge copper wiring. The sheet rock is thick, roof is 3/4 plywood. When I replaced a faucet in the shower I found hand done mortar behind the tile not blue/green board.

In the '80s a lot of questionable building materials were used, paper/composite main drains (which is insane considering the amount of oleander in people's back yards), aluminum wiring and almost all framed walls with stucco.

Try upgrading windows in a stucco home, you have to basically cut through it, put in the new windows, re-mortar it and then paint your house.

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Wash. state Desk Jet (2,178 posts)    Sun May 24, 2015, 01:13 PM

14. To yer question
 
Been in the construction industry for a good number of years and I have never seen a home built by a construction company man that gets built in the same manner with the same shabby methods used in general construction-or the buyers market. !

You would label such a project a custom built home but what it is ,is a structure built the way it should be using quality materials .

All phases of construction in such an endeavor take as long as is required in the interest of quality and perfection, as it once did in the old days. For a craftsmen, it's a rare opportunity these days to turn yer hand in yer craft when yer not fighting the clock or forced to cut corners.

OK, so what it comes down to is the big name construction outfits will build mile long rows of houses on end for market sales,but living in such a thing is out of the question for them !

When expense is not spared on the material end and the time it takes to do quality work is not sacrificed to meet the budget,you will have an end result that is more-so a likeness to that old house built in 1907 -of a type where the buyers had some money to spread on quality. In effect you get what you pay for.

On the other hand it you don't do your research and you don't know much about quality construction verses built it fast and sell it fast, than you get what is there .

So yes ,a lot of pre fab these days, build it quick.

This is why quality custom home design and construction has emerged in market.

What it comes down to is you get what you pay for.

But you have to know exactly what you want and how you want it.

A good master builder can also design.

Myself, I'll agree with N.Y. Skp. the old house stands firm and solid, but, it's a lot of work.

So yes, quality has dropped off in the building industry.I won't go into the why's and what the hells. 

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steve2470 (26,940 posts)    Sun May 24, 2015, 04:43 PM

15. thank you so much for your input
 
"You get what you pay for" is so so true, in so many phases of life. Like I said above, I would have paid more to have sound-proofed walls and floors. I don't know how much more it would have cost the builder to do that, but my layman's guess is that it was not done because of the added cost.
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Offline RobJohnson

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2015, 08:52:55 PM »
They talk about the stupidest things.

Offline I_B_Perky

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2015, 09:44:44 PM »
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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:27 PM

6. You can put a fist through a modern wall. Don't try that with a pre-war home.
 
And, your mileage may vary from state to state, region to region.

Over the past 50 years, modern is generally better.

However, even today, some states like N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Alaska, W. Virginia Wyoming and Mississippi and others resist energy efficiency codes.

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    NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 04:41 PM

    9. Part of it is frontier resistance to big government, and the energy lobby.
     
    Every one of those states has a stake in the energy industry.

    Coal in Appalachia, petroleum in Alaska and Mississippi, natural gas in the Dakotas.

    They're Red states, and fiercely resistant to regulations, even when they're in their best interest.*

    True, better buildings cost a little bit more but after the investment is recovered in just two to eight years, it's more cost effective.

    They don't think long-term.*

    Though the folks I've met in Alaska are smarter than that, they build smart.


You dumbass. WV was reliably dem until your messiah got into office, killed the coal industry and is shuttering power plants left and right thru his nazi EPA regs. He took a state that was dem for over 80 years and in one term turned it to the GOP. Quite an accomplishment.

Now for some education you dumbass.  We have some of the lowest energy costs in the nation here. Even with the obumbles regs.  Not really a need to spend lots of money making something so energy efficient that you cannot recoup the cost in savings. No need to have water efficient devices when one can walk without getting out of breath to a river.  Most people around here have no problem using a hammer and saw and can build anything they want. I doubt you and your ilk could operate one without cutting your hand off or hitting yourself in the head.

Funny thing about us non long term thinking folks here in these states. We don't need people like you telling us how to live. We do just fine by ourselves. If civilization was to cease tomorrow, us non long term thinking people would be just fine. Your types, however, would starve to death in your liberal meccas or get shot when you show up on our doorstep.

**** off you arrogant, pompous twit.
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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2015, 09:45:40 PM »
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NYC_SKP (68,232 posts)    Sat May 23, 2015, 03:51 PM

1. What's the urban legend stuff to which you refer? Architect and builder here.
 
Well, I have a professional degree in architecture, not a license,

He may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, but he sounds like George Costanza.

More proof that brain surgery failed.

Offline miskie

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2015, 10:51:57 PM »
As a kind-of old home expert (mine is historically registered, built in 1866) I feel compelled to chime in - and stunningly, I find myself agreeing with Skippy. Window insulation - not good. However, the rest of the construction is rock solid.

Truth is , my basement is quite literally rock solid. Its made out of granite. The rough-hewn blocks are somewhere around 12 to 18 inches thick and as such,  they aren't going anywhere. The house finished settling many years ago. Instead of 2x4 beams in the exterior walls, I have 6x6. And outside of that, I have 1 inch thick wood beneath the exterior clapboard. There is about 9 inches of material between the downstairs ceiling and the upstairs floor. - And I'm not talking a drop ceiling or low hung plaster either.

The average new home has none of this. But new homes do have far better insulation, more available plug outlets, and energy efficient windows.     

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 12:23:15 AM »
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Well, I have a professional degree in architecture, not a license, and years in the trades, and done construction in the East and the West.


Uh-huh..........   ::)
              

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Offline cmypay

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2015, 08:23:20 AM »
Our house was built 1930-1932. When we had to re-roof after a hurricane, we discovered what they meant when they told us it had "rough cut timber" construction. Some of the support beams still have bark and are square cut on the outside and still round like a tree towards the inside of the house. And trying to put a roofing nail into old pecan is near impossible.

Offline BuzzClik

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2015, 10:38:56 AM »
You dumbass. WV was reliably dem until your messiah got into office, killed the coal industry and is shuttering power plants left and right thru his nazi EPA regs. He took a state that was dem for over 80 years and in one term turned it to the GOP. Quite an accomplishment.
Actually, WV voted for Eisenhower in 1956, Nixon in 1972, Reagan in 1984 and voted for the GOP presidential candidate starting in 2000.

No need to have water efficient devices when one can walk without getting out of breath to a river.
Hopefully, you'll have indoor plumbing soon.

Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2015, 11:24:55 AM »
You dumbass. WV was reliably dem until your messiah got into office, killed the coal industry and is shuttering power plants left and right thru his nazi EPA regs. He took a state that was dem for over 80 years and in one term turned it to the GOP. Quite an accomplishment.

Now for some education you dumbass.  We have some of the lowest energy costs in the nation here. Even with the obumbles regs.  Not really a need to spend lots of money making something so energy efficient that you cannot recoup the cost in savings. No need to have water efficient devices when one can walk without getting out of breath to a river.  Most people around here have no problem using a hammer and saw and can build anything they want. I doubt you and your ilk could operate one without cutting your hand off or hitting yourself in the head.

Funny thing about us non long term thinking folks here in these states. We don't need people like you telling us how to live. We do just fine by ourselves. If civilization was to cease tomorrow, us non long term thinking people would be just fine. Your types, however, would starve to death in your liberal meccas or get shot when you show up on our doorstep.

**** off you arrogant, pompous twit.

SKP equates resistance to passing codes with not insulating, a false equation. Places like the Dakotas and AK would be almost uninhabitable in winter without insulation, so residents do it without being required to do so by government regulations. IOW, self-interest motivates people to do the "right" thing as or more effectively as government regulations. I guess that's an incomprehensible concept over on DU. Some older homes in the Dakotas - e.g. the Ingalls' (19th Century) home in De Smet, SD - are historians' dreams because of what they used for insulation, old newspapers.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2015, 12:04:20 PM »
SKP, in the quotes above, is being less than precise - or over-simplifying - to the point of self-contradiction. Sometimes he criticizes older construction, sometimes he praises it. Perhaps his meaning is that pre-WW2 (in saying "pre-war" he doesn't specify which war) construction is generally better in durability, post-WW2 construction into the 1970s was worse, and construction since the 1970s has improved as an incidental consequence of insulation requirements (e.g. use of 2x6s instead of 2x4s to accommodate thicker insulation). Even that statement of mine is very over-simplified.

I think I've lived in three houses for any significant number of years in my lifetime. The "newest" was built in 1958; one was custom-built (1949), the other two post-WW2 tract homes. They've been solid.

Sound insulation - usually apartment or motel room inner walls - is an apple-oranges comparison. It has nothing to do with durability, and little or nothing to do with energy efficiency. Painting with a broad brush, it's something that started out as lousy and has improved, largely due to customer - i.e. marketplace - demand. My worst experience in a motel was with a Hollywood-area Travellodge, probably late 1940s construction. We couldn't talk in normal voices! In apartments my worst & best experience was a tonwhouse in Sunnyvale. One night my neighbor couple partied loud into the early AM on a Friday night//Saturday AM. Later that Saturday AM I grumpily dug out my record of the 1812 Overture and turned up my stereo amplifier a bit. Whether they didn't like Tchaikovsky or thought about other things I might be able to hear, I don't know, but problem solved.
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Offline RobJohnson

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2015, 02:19:07 PM »
Older homes have class and character, something we are unable to find at DU.

Offline I_B_Perky

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2015, 07:33:43 PM »
Actually, WV voted for Eisenhower in 1956, Nixon in 1972, Reagan in 1984 and voted for the GOP presidential candidate starting in 2000.
Hopefully, you'll have indoor plumbing soon.


I live in WV and have for the last 50 plus years. I think I know a damn sight more about this state than your worthless ass.

WV legislature was dem controlled since like the 30's and it's congress critters were all dem since I have been alive. Yes they have voted for reps for president in the past. Seems the dems run morons like dukkakis for pres. Then obumbles got in office.

In the last dem primary for pres the people of WV voted for some convicted prisoner from Texas over obumbles. Then in 2012 and 2014 the people threw the dems out of power in the state legislature and all but one of our congress critters are now GOP. The sole exception is Joe Manchin. The blame? Obumbles policies. Seems they did not go over real good in southern WV which is union coal miners. Piss off the coal miners and you reap what you have sown.

As for walking to the river you worthless hunk of organic waste matter, I live 1 mile from a water processing plant. We have lots of those around here. Wanna know why? Because they usually build them next to water sources... such as rivers! And yes we have indoor plumbing and sewage plants too in case you didn't know it.

I have one question for you: Why are you here? Did the dump take a vote and elect you to come over and see how many people you can make laugh with your inane ramblings? Seems to me like you go out of your way to act like a moron. Perhaps you are not acting. Perhaps you really are a moron. You are a dummie after all.

So tell me dummie... how does it feel to go thru life knowing you are a moron?



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Offline GOBUCKS

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2015, 08:48:52 PM »
Most homes built before the 70s have to be nearly rebuilt to be habitable now.

They have very little insulation and nearly all windows need to be replaced.

They are plumbed for a single bathroom and the fixtures are primitive by modern standards.

The wiring doesn't meet safety codes, and there is a severe shortage of outlets and capacity.

There's a severe shortage of closet space.

The vast majority max out at three bedrooms.

Kitchen cabinets, counter space, and counter outlets are awful.

Most are designed without ductwork for central heating and cooling.

Most require exterior painting every three or four years.

Prior to the 60s, attached garages were rare.

In most places the tens of thousands it costs to retrofit an old house to modern expectations are a questionable investment.

Solid construction and skilled carpentry are great assets, but a home requires a hell of a lot more.

The deterioration of most eighty-year-old neighborhoods is another huge negative.

Detroit is full of solid, well-built houses.

I'll take a modern home built by crews of illegal mexicans any day of the week.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 01:31:02 AM »
He may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, but he sounds like George Costanza.

More proof that brain surgery failed.

I know right ?
Skip an architect ?
That addition to the Guggenheim was magnificent.
It really didn't take that long either.

The brain salad surgery succeeded where the brain surgery failed.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 09:43:56 AM »
1.) Most homes built before the 70s have to be nearly rebuilt to be habitable now.

2.) They have very little insulation and nearly all windows need to be replaced.

3.) They are plumbed for a single bathroom and the fixtures are primitive by modern standards.

4.) The wiring doesn't meet safety codes, and there is a severe shortage of outlets and capacity.

5.) There's a severe shortage of closet space.

6.) The vast majority max out at three bedrooms.

7.) Kitchen cabinets, counter space, and counter outlets are awful.

8.) Most are designed without ductwork for central heating and cooling.

9.) Most require exterior painting every three or four years.

10.) Prior to the 60s, attached garages were rare.

11.) In most places the tens of thousands it costs to retrofit an old house to modern expectations are a questionable investment.

12.) Solid construction and skilled carpentry are great assets, but a home requires a hell of a lot more.

13.) The deterioration of most eighty-year-old neighborhoods is another huge negative.

Detroit is full of solid, well-built houses.

I'll take a modern home built by crews of illegal mexicans any day of the week.

1.) I've mentioned the 3 homes with which I have experience: my parents' home, built in 1949; a house I rented, built in 1958; the home I currently own, built in 1948. My parents lived in CA's Central Valley; I've lived in Silicon Valley since the Carter Administration. Other than normal maintenance stuff, only the home in which I live had (has) had remodeling when I lived in each.

2.) Basically true, though the only home in which I've lived that had the windows replaced is the home in which I live.

3.) Two of the houses in which I've lived had 2 bathrooms, as built. My current home has had two additions, and each time a bathroom was part of what was added.

4.) This is true,  technically true, and partly false. The "partly false" part has to do with some 1970s homes that were built with aluminum wiring. Aluminum wiring requires outlets and switches designed for use with aluminum wiring, and many such homes did not have those special outlets and fixtures. The "technically true" part has to do, largely, with the change from 2-wire (Line and Neutral) to 3-wire (L, N, and Earth Ground) systems. Older homes are not unsafe generally, wrt fire hazard or shock (except for rare situations where a tool or appliance has been wired incorrectly, has an internal fault, or is near-antique (some old TV and radio chassis are grounded to Neutral). As for "true" appliances proliferated in the 1950s-1970s, and electronic gadgetry started proliferating in the 1980s. I never experienced inconvenience in my parents' home (custom-built) or the home I rented (tract home), but that was before we had more electronic gadgetry than a microwave oven. In my present home the electronics are mainly in the 1970s- and 2000s-built parts of the home, but due to how we use the home, not availability of outlets. I think most post-WW2 construction was adequate for the proliferation of appliances, but 1970s and later electronics would have strained wiring capacity as well as the number of outlets.

5.) All three homes in which I've lived have had closets in every bedroom, plus closets near the front door and in the hallway between the bedrooms. My parents' home had an additional closet in the den, and an amazing number of built-in cabinets that could be and often were used as closets - like I said above, custom built.

6.) My parents' home had two bedrooms. The rental and this home, as built, had 3 bedrooms.

7.) My parents' home had an amazing number of kitchen cabinets, and more than adequate number of outlets - by intentional design. The rental was as-built, and the cabinets and outlets were fine. By the time I bought my current house the kitchen had already been substantially remodeled, as part of adding another 600-800 square feet on to the home. What had been the back wall of the kitchen had been opened up for access to one of the new rooms. So I don't know and won't speculate about the as-built cabinetry and outlets.

8.) True. My parents added central AC/heating to their home ~15 years after it was built. The rental didn't have it. We added AC/heating to this home about 10 years ago. One qualification to the latter two homes is that here in Silicon Valley the climate is very mild, so in any year there might be 10-20 days in which it gets uncomfortably hot.

9.) In the 40-45 years I can remember of my parents' home, I think they painted it 2 or maybe 3 times, and it never looked ratty or worn. I can't speak meaningfully of the rental. My family and I have lived in my current home for nearly 25 years, and we have had it painted once ... as part of adding on the rooms my MIL lived in the last several years of her life. Climate has much to do with paint durability: Silicon Valley is mild year-round; the Central Valley has hot summers.

10.) All three homes, as-built, had attached garages, with access to the garage from within the home. from what I've seen around Silicon Valley and Arizona's Valley of the Sun, attached garages were normal in post-WW2 tract homes.

11.) That depends on location - as you said - how long one lives in the home after the remodel, and how one values the use/enjoyment of the remodel.

12.) True. Setting aside the family aspect that makes a house a home, maintenance is required, and sometimes lifestyle changes over a time span of decades forces choices beyond normal maintenance.

13.) That is almost entirely a function of how well those living in such neighborhoods maintain their homes and property. Across the street from my 1948-built home are homes built in the 1960s, and within 5 minutes' walk from my home are homes built in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s (plus a few new-built homes that replaced older ones - investments, replacing homes burned down, replacing one that had been abandoned for a long time). All are well maintained.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 09:45:19 AM »
The brain salad surgery succeeded where the brain surgery failed.

H-5 for the EL&P reference!
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2015, 01:47:13 AM »
^Heh.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline jukin

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2015, 02:50:37 PM »
Quote
The deterioration of most eighty-year-old neighborhoods is another huge negative.

This is not due to the house construction. It is due to complexion of the area. The same can be said for leftist governance.
When you are the beneficiary of someone’s kindness and generosity, it produces a sense of gratitude and community.

When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Online CC27

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2015, 03:21:45 PM »
Since when is Granholm smart and sexy? Gross.

Offline hillneck

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2015, 04:47:50 PM »
Funny thing about us non long term thinking folks here in these states. We don't need people like you telling us how to live. We do just fine by ourselves. If civilization was to cease tomorrow, us non long term thinking people would be just fine. Your types, however, would starve to death in your liberal meccas or get shot when you show up on our doorstep.

**** off you arrogant, pompous twit.

Amen brother!!!!
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Offline I_B_Perky

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2015, 07:51:33 PM »
Amen brother!!!!

I freaking hate big city fools that think people in rural states are stupid. Especially ones that have never set foot in one.  Pompous asses all. They can keep their big cities, I like it in West By God Virginia just fine.   :cheersmate:
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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2015, 06:25:10 AM »
I freaking hate big city fools that think people in rural states are stupid. Especially ones that have never set foot in one.  Pompous asses all. They can keep their big cities, I like it in West By God Virginia just fine.   :cheersmate:

I'm with you, Perky!

For YEARS, when we had our dairy farm, we had to endure regulations made by the USDA and the VDH concerning how we should "run" our farm.

Even as a boy as young as 12, it was painfully obvious to me that the authors of those rules had no idea which end of a cow to put a bale of hay, and which one to use a shovel.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2015, 08:29:14 AM »
I freaking hate big city fools that think people in rural states are stupid. Especially ones that have never set foot in one.  Pompous asses all. They can keep their big cities, I like it in West By God Virginia just fine.   :cheersmate:

Fools enough to think the food on their table and the cotton and wool clothing on their backs and backsides came from Safeway (or Kroger or ...) and Macy's, respectively.
If The Vaccine is deadly as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, millions now living would have died.

Offline SVPete

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Re: primitives discuss home construction
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2015, 08:31:21 AM »
I'm with you, Perky!

For YEARS, when we had our dairy farm, we had to endure regulations made by the USDA and the VDH concerning how we should "run" our farm.

Even as a boy as young as 12, it was painfully obvious to me that the authors of those rules had no idea which end of a cow to put a bale of hay, and which one to use a shovel.

Or maybe:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUboqktbLk[/youtube]

 :naughty:
If The Vaccine is deadly as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, millions now living would have died.