Author Topic: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.  (Read 6076 times)

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Offline dutch508

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Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« on: April 28, 2015, 04:52:40 AM »
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cherokeeprogressive (18,774 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026579996

Post your SOLUTIONS (or ideas for them) here. **** the rhetoric and finger pointing...
Post your ideas for fixing the problem of police brutality in this thread. Then, let's get on with the process of implementing them, or at least TRYING to implement them by reaching out to everyone we know... whether our acquaintances are important or not. Even word of mouth makes a difference if you have the ability to convince enough people you're right.

Here are mine...

MANDATE civilian oversight of all law enforcement agencies. Allow every community to appoint an agreed-to number of "overseers" who are guaranteed access to any and all evidence when LEOs are accused of unnecessary violence. Codify lack of departmental forthcoming of evidence as suspicious, and develop a system wherein departments not forthcoming with any and all evidence are subject to DOJ review.

VIDEO every LEO from the moment they exit their car. NOT BY "BODY CAMS"; those are shit. All I have to do as a LEO is face the wrong way during an encounter and MY word becomes boss... that's bullshit. Place six cameras on gimbals on EVERY car (one on each end of the light bar and one at each corner of the car) that are tracked by RFID tags in each LEO's badge, belt buckle, utility belt, or weapon. Doing so would make 3D re-creations of incident scenes as easy as clicking a mouse. I can buy SIX 1080p cameras for less than $500. I can buy gimbals for as little as $60. I can buy terrabytes of storage for those cameras for less than $100 per terrabyte in bulk. I'm guessing that outfitting each car with cameras, gimbals, software, circuitry, and storage would cost less than $2500 per car.

FORCE all LEOs accused of unnecessary force to attend use of force workshops while on unpaid suspension.

FIRE all LEOs found to have used violence over what was necessary.

Make it ILLEGAL for a jurisdiction to hire a LEO who has been fired by another jurisdiction.

I showed you mine. Tear it apart point by point if you think it's wrong; God knows I've been wrong before at least twice (ex-Wives). Stop posting meaningless rhetoric, pointing fingers, and placing blame where it doesn't exist. Show me yours. Then, let's figure out how to make things happen. Hell, let's get Skinner and the rest of TPTB at Democratic Undergound to run interference.


1) Civilian oversight is a good thing is handled correctly. A department hamstrung by civilians is useless. See Baltimore and a Mayor letting the people run riot.

2) Cameras are a good thing. Six camera on a car? not doable. Also goes to violations of the 4th Amendment.

3) and the rest- You will soon find that no one will be a police officer as the risks outweigh the benifits of serving. AND then what?

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msongs (35,926 posts)
2. quit hiring former military nt

Yeah... that makes sense.

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Scootaloo (17,140 posts)
24. My understanding, it's conflicting training

A combat vet's training is that everyone around him not in his uniform is a potential threat. Active threats need to be put down with immediate lethal force. Which in a battlefield, makes sense, sure.

American streets are not battlefields, no matter how our Republican friends would like to yarp on about "War on drugs" or whatever. A law enforcement officer's job isn't to see the people around him as threats, it's to see them as his charges, people to protect. The best response to threats for law enforcement is de-escalation of the situation.

Somewhere in our cultural trajectory, we managed to confuse constables and combatants. And it's nothing against combat vets as people. And I have no doubt, many combat vets could serve as cops quite ably. However, the problem is that the line between soldiers and police is already hugely muddled, at the great expense of the safety of Americans.

Maybe we ought to take a hiatus on the "afghanistan-to-Baltimore" career track? let our veterans find some gainful employment that DOESN'T involve being armed and indoctrinated with seige mentality bullshit? Maybe pry our cops out of their armored vehicles and combat fatigues? You know, re-establish the line between the two?

Then we can look into vets serving as police. It's nothing personal, and no, it's not fair, but we have a real problem, and this is honestly part of the fuel of that problem.


Because we all know that Vets are just timebombs really to kill black people at a moment's notice.

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treestar (56,153 posts)
6. Training from European countries

See the recent thread on the Swedish cops on vacation in NY who broke up a fight.

More sensitivity training. The black man is not inherently more likely to be doing wrong than the white man.

Affirmative action - more black cops. Black cops in black neighborhoods.

More female cops.

More training in nonviolent responses. And in keeping your gun safe rather than having to fear other people taking it from you - the first excuse.

The gun crap about how if you pull it out you have to shoot to kill - use tasers.

Training in letting people go and dealing with it later if there is no obvious evidence they are armed. Undo the macho "I have to win" male principle of male to male interaction.


Yes... be nicer to people...  ::)

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Cali_Democrat (23,869 posts)
7. Mandatory cameras on all cops.

Video automatically uploaded to a cloud server.

If a cop tries to turn off the camera, they should face lengthy jail sentences.


How about CCTV on every street corner? How about cameras following you everywhere you go with facial recognition software? More cameras are better for the Polcie to catch you- not for the citizen to be protected from police violence. Say goodbye to personal liberty.

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enigmatic (14,709 posts)
10. Police need to be peacekeepers, not occupiers

Bring back the fairness doctrine.

Stop the drug war now. Close private prisons. Stop Police Departments using tickets as revenue for the departments.

Inwardly, everyone needs to see empathy as a virtue, not a weakness.


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XemaSab (59,325 posts)
11. Hire more women as cops

Decentralize the police force and put officers in neighborhood-based offices. Get a regular rotation going so you don't get cliques forming.

Bodycams that the officers cannot turn off. If you're an officer and you take your camera off, you get fired, no excuses.

A civilian review board that looks at "ordinary" officer/civilian interactions, like those where the officer is just writing a routine citation. Every thug cop had a dozen or a hundred moments of thuggery before he shot someone or beat someone.

End the stupid, ineffective war on drugs.


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gwheezie (1,211 posts)
16. stop arresting children

Many of the young adults I see that wind up poor and homeless with no job stems from being arrested as young teens. It follows them. You can't get away from it. Their education is disrupted. When they get out of jail or a facility they are far behind if they ever get back to school.


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Half-Century Man (3,785 posts)
18. Here are a few.

Demilitarization of the police at all levels.

A single armored vehicle per county, under the jurisdiction of the Sheriff. Fuel to be paid for out of Sheriff salary to discourage usage.

Loss of any and all fully automatic capable weapons at local, county, and state levels. Authorization for federal police forces to carry full automatic weapons need AG approval each instance.

No camouflage/ urban assault uniforms. Police tactical situational uniforms should be looser fitting normal police uniforms.

Comprehensive data base of police shootings. All officer shootings to be investigated by State Board of Review; as non-local as possible.

All officers who shoot someone to be taken off of street duty for one year to cool down period and to avoid PTSD.
Third shooting, mandatory psych evaluation for continued service.
Mandatory steroid screenings for police officers.

Police officers must live in the communities where they have jurisdiction.

Only officers with 5+ years of experience (or rank of Sargent) to freely carry side arms. Non-qualified officers to have remote authorization gun locks in patrol cars.


Barry's push to federalize all police should fix exerything.  :rotf:
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Online Carl

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 06:08:40 AM »
Bring back the fairness doctrine?  :???:

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 06:15:17 AM »
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Scootaloo (17,140 posts)
24. My understanding, it's conflicting training

A combat vet's training is that everyone around him not in his uniform is a potential threat. Active threats need to be put down with immediate lethal force. Which in a battlefield, makes sense, sure.

You're knowledge of what a combat vet thinks and feels wouldn't fill half a thimble.  You don't even want us to use lethal force on an enemy combatant on the battlefield...so stop...just stop...you're making yourself look terribly stupid...even by DU standrds.

Police Departments like to use former military members because we're physically fit, we already know how to handle and accurately shoot weapons, a lot of us already know how to keep our cool in hostile and dangerous situations and we are disciplined.

If anything more of us died in Iraq and Afghanistan than needed to because we showed too much discipline and adhearance to rules of engagement that severyly tied our hands when it came to engagements.


Got that hotshot? We're not the loose cannons shooting anything that moves that you like to believe we are because that's what the Stolen Valor pukes at DU make us out to be

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American streets are not battlefields,


Have you seen Baltimore in the last 24 hours?

What about what's left of Ferguson?

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A law enforcement officer's job isn't to see the people around him as threats, it's to see them as his charges, people to protect.


First off law enforcement is just that...enforcement of the law.  It's not the common misconception that the police are there to protect each and every individual citizen.

But then how do you answer the problem of community organizers and so called black "leaders" telling the communites that every cop they see is the enemy?

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The best response to threats for law enforcement is de-escalation of the situation.


Tell that to the families of officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos.  Or to the families of the 15 Baltimore PD officers in the hospital right now.

It's always easy for idiots like you to "fix" the situation when you've never BEEN in the situation these officers face.

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Somewhere in our cultural trajectory, we managed to confuse constables and combatants. And it's nothing against combat vets as people. And I have no doubt, many combat vets could serve as cops quite ably. However, the problem is that the line between soldiers and police is already hugely muddled, at the great expense of the safety of Americans.


Too bad you and your ilk will never be honest enough to admit where the problems arose.

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Maybe we ought to take a hiatus on the "afghanistan-to-Baltimore" career track? let our veterans find some gainful employment that DOESN'T involve being armed and indoctrinated with seige mentality bullshit? 


Maybe you should take a hiatus from trying to think for awhile.  You seem to be failing at it miserably.

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Maybe pry our cops out of their armored vehicles and combat fatigues? You know, re-establish the line between the two?

Who do you think is selling them all that gear and vehicles?

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Then we can look into vets serving as police. It's nothing personal, and no, it's not fair, but we have a real problem, and this is honestly part of the fuel of that problem.


You're doing a piss poor job of disguising your hatred of the military behind the current situation with the Baltimore PD...who have actually shown a great deal of restraint with the rioters that have been given permission by their mayor to loot and destroy the city the cops are trying to defend.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 06:17:53 AM by txradioguy »
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 06:20:31 AM »
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Half-Century Man (3,785 posts)
18. Here are a few.

Demilitarization of the police at all levels.

A single armored vehicle per county, under the jurisdiction of the Sheriff. Fuel to be paid for out of Sheriff salary to discourage usage.

Loss of any and all fully automatic capable weapons at local, county, and state levels. Authorization for federal police forces to carry full automatic weapons need AG approval each instance.

No camouflage/ urban assault uniforms. Police tactical situational uniforms should be looser fitting normal police uniforms.

Comprehensive data base of police shootings. All officer shootings to be investigated by State Board of Review; as non-local as possible.

All officers who shoot someone to be taken off of street duty for one year to cool down period and to avoid PTSD.
Third shooting, mandatory psych evaluation for continued service.
Mandatory steroid screenings for police officers.

Police officers must live in the communities where they have jurisdiction.

Only officers with 5+ years of experience (or rank of Sargent) to freely carry side arms. Non-qualified officers to have remote authorization gun locks in patrol cars.

Couple years ago I'd have laughed at this.

But I think this is eactly what this Administration and the new AG intend to do...if not something much worse.
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Offline RayRaytheSBS

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 06:59:29 AM »
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Half-Century Man (3,785 posts)
18. Here are a few.

Demilitarization of the police at all levels.

A single armored vehicle per county, under the jurisdiction of the Sheriff. Fuel to be paid for out of Sheriff salary to discourage usage.

Loss of any and all fully automatic capable weapons at local, county, and state levels. Authorization for federal police forces to carry full automatic weapons need AG approval each instance.

No camouflage/ urban assault uniforms. Police tactical situational uniforms should be looser fitting normal police uniforms.

Comprehensive data base of police shootings. All officer shootings to be investigated by State Board of Review; as non-local as possible.

All officers who shoot someone to be taken off of street duty for one year to cool down period and to avoid PTSD.
Third shooting, mandatory psych evaluation for continued service.
Mandatory steroid screenings for police officers.

Police officers must live in the communities where they have jurisdiction.

Only officers with 5+ years of experience (or rank of Sargent) to freely carry side arms. Non-qualified officers to have remote authorization gun locks in patrol cars.


The bolded is some of the stupidest stuff I have ever heard in my life. So how is that officer to develop that confidence and ability to carry his sidearm and to use it effectively in any stressful situation.. When it is in his @#%! COP CAR!! AYFKM??

These idiots need to shut their mouths. The amount of Idiocy they are spilling is having a more detrimental impact to the ozone layer and global warming than that volcano in Chile. Or they cold just save Gaea Single-handedly by offing themselves.  :banghead:

 
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 07:40:10 AM »
DUmmies on government freebies are to be used as "human shields" by the police.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline franksolich

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 07:54:56 AM »
DUmmies on government freebies are to be used as "human shields" by the police.

I dunno what the public perception is down in your neck of the woods, about the riots.

Out here, it's bringing one big vast yawn; it's Obozo's baby, not ours.

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apres moi, le deluge

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Offline dutch508

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 08:29:40 AM »
I dunno what the public perception is down in your neck of the woods, about the riots.

Out here, it's bringing one big vast yawn; it's Obozo's baby, not ours.

<<<wishes the primitives would get distracted by some other new shiny toy of significance; this one's tediously boring.

Blue State Hell zone.

**** 'em.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 08:48:51 AM »
I dunno what the public perception is down in your neck of the woods, about the riots.
Out here, it's bringing one big vast yawn; it's Obozo's baby, not ours.

<<<wishes the primitives would get distracted by some other new shiny toy of significance; this one's tediously boring.
This is the type of behavior after the Civil War (encouraged by the Yankees) that gave rise to the KKK and Jim Crow laws.

Paraphrasing a famous movie here, "Freedom, they can't handle freedom".
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2015, 09:34:15 AM »
About the use of Tasers . . . We had someone in Albany get 'lit up' over the weekend.  Apparently, he had a couple of warrants on him and, as his sister said, "he didn't want to go back to jail."  So, he ran . . . and got his ass Tased.  It gave him a seizure, which caused him to stop breathing, but he was revived by the Albany PD. 

:zap:

What's the moral of this little missive?  The morning hosts on WGY said it best (I'm paraphrasing):  If you don't want to get Tased, don't resist the police.  There was an incident a few months ago in a village just south of where my parents live where someone got Tased by the Village PD . . . and died in the scuffle.

Again:  If you don't want to get Tased, don't resist the police.

:zap:
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Offline Big Dog

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2015, 10:25:16 AM »
Silly primitives. The police are agents of the State. Their actions, for good or ill, are the actions of the State.

The primitives want the State to 'fix' the State, merely because they want it.
Government is the negation of liberty.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2015, 01:24:57 PM »
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gwheezie (1,211 posts)
16. stop arresting children

Many of the young adults I see that wind up poor and homeless with no job stems from being arrested as young teens. It follows them. You can't get away from it. Their education is disrupted. When they get out of jail or a facility they are far behind if they ever get back to school.

If teens stop committing crimes they won't get arrested. Stop making excuses for criminals.

Offline jukin

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2015, 04:30:55 PM »
I have one.

No white cops to enter black war zone areas.

That should fix all the complaints that the left has.
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When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2015, 04:36:28 PM »
I have one.

No white cops to enter black war zone areas.

That should fix all the complaints that the left has.
That was the way it was done back in the old south during our racist past......and it worked damn well too.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948

"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within."  Stalin

Offline obumazombie

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2015, 07:23:37 PM »
txradioguy has already covered it, but I wanted to add a bit...

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Scootaloo (17,140 posts)
24. My understanding, it's conflicting training

A combat vet's training is that everyone around him not in his uniform is a potential threat. Active threats need to be put down with immediate lethal force. Which in a battlefield, makes sense, sure.


Scootaloo has probably never seen the landscapes in crime infested cities.
They are battlefields.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline delilahmused

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 07:33:15 PM »
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Cali_Democrat (23,869 posts)
7. Mandatory cameras on all cops.

Video automatically uploaded to a cloud server.

If a cop tries to turn off the camera, they should face lengthy jail sentences.

The current black progressive mayor of Baltimore voted against them.

Cindie
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Offline jukin

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 09:52:51 PM »
That was the way it was done back in the old south during our racist past......and it worked damn well too.

This is what the black racists are asking for and I have no problem giving this to them. Wall it off to any white people going into the black areas and no blacks in the white areas. I think this is an old idea that the black racists want to try again and I am a race realist, let's try it and see how it works.
When you are the beneficiary of someone’s kindness and generosity, it produces a sense of gratitude and community.

When you are the beneficiary of a policy that steals from someone and gives it to you in return for your vote, it produces a sense of entitlement and dependency.

Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 11:21:08 PM »
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enigmatic (14,709 posts)
10. Police need to be peacekeepers, not occupiers

Bring back the fairness doctrine.

Stop the drug war now. Close private prisons. Stop Police Departments using tickets as revenue for the departments.

Inwardly, everyone needs to see empathy as a virtue, not a weakness.

 :???: :wtf2: 

Quote
gwheezie (1,211 posts)
16. stop arresting children

Many of the young adults I see that wind up poor and homeless with no job stems from being arrested as young teens. It follows them. You can't get away from it. Their education is disrupted. When they get out of jail or a facility they are far behind if they ever get back to school.

How about they stop committing crimes in the first place.
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2015, 11:25:27 PM »
I have one.

No white cops to enter black war zone areas.

That should fix all the complaints that the left has.

I have heard that Black cops treat Blacks worse than White cops.
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Offline delilahmused

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2015, 11:34:15 PM »
I'd like to see police bow out of those neighborhoods for a while. Police get blamed for everything. Let them police themselves.

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Offline obumazombie

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2015, 11:53:03 PM »
I'd like to see police bow out of those neighborhoods for a while. Police get blamed for everything. Let them police themselves.

Cindie

They do that in Chicago.
That's why Chicago has such a high black on black murder rate.
There were only two options for gender. At last count there are at least 12, according to libs. By that standard, I'm a male lesbian.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 04:47:54 AM »
Could it be that Scootaloo is actualy CNN's Brooke Baldwin?

Quote
Scootaloo (17,140 posts)
24. My understanding, it's conflicting training

A combat vet's training is that everyone around him not in his uniform is a potential threat. Active threats need to be put down with immediate lethal force. Which in a battlefield, makes sense, sure.

Quote
CNN’s Brooke Baldwin suggested during the Tuesday afternoon edition of CNN Newsroom
 that U.S. military veterans who become police officers were to blame for the recent string of violence involving police officers in that they return home “from war” and are “ready to do battle.”

While speaking with Democratic Congressman Elijah Cummings (Md.), Baldwin recalled a conversation with a Baltimore City councilman about police officers not living “in the communities” they represent when she remarked that: “I love our nation's veterans, but some of them are coming back from war, they don't know the communities, and they're ready to do battle.”

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/curtis-houck/2015/04/28/cnns-brooke-baldwin-blames-veterans-becoming-cops-police-violence#disqus_thread
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Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 04:57:50 AM »
Quote
Then we can look into vets serving as police. Yada yada yah... It's nothing personal, Sure it is.  You won't admit the real problem and no, it's not fair, but we have a real problem, and this is honestly part of the fuel of that problem.  No, it's not.

A real problem?

Baltimore's Mayor is a Democrat.
City Council and all elected representation are all entirely Democrat.  Overwhelmingly. black Democrat.
Maryland's governor is Republican.  Only the second since 1969.
Maryland's House of Representatives is 92 Democrats & 50 Republicans,
Maryland's Senate is 33 Democrats & 17 Republicans
(I counted them so it's possible my count is off by one or two.)

Maryland is OVERWHELMINGLY Democrat/liberal. This is a problem THEY created. NOT the Republicans.

There's your problem, but since you can't blame this on Republicans, Boooooosh, Joooooooos, Limbaugh or fAuXneWS!!!111!!!eLebIntY!!!1111....  blame Vets.

 :bird:  You're not as smart as you think you are.
              

Liberal thinking is a two-legged stool and magical thinking is one of the legs, the other is a combination of self-loating and misanthropy.  To understand it, you would have to be able to sit on that stool while juggling two elephants, an anvil and a fragmentation grenade, sans pin.

"Accuse others of what you do." - Karl Marx

Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2015, 05:01:08 AM »
Could it be that Scootaloo is actualy CNN's Brooke Baldwin?
 
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/curtis-houck/2015/04/28/cnns-brooke-baldwin-blames-veterans-becoming-cops-police-violence#disqus_thread

  :-) Heh....  I would bet that's exactly where S/H/It got that line of crap.  Was thinking the same thing reading that senseless tripe.
              

Liberal thinking is a two-legged stool and magical thinking is one of the legs, the other is a combination of self-loating and misanthropy.  To understand it, you would have to be able to sit on that stool while juggling two elephants, an anvil and a fragmentation grenade, sans pin.

"Accuse others of what you do." - Karl Marx

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Leftists try to figure out how to Police the State.
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2015, 05:05:13 AM »
A real problem?

Baltimore's Mayor is a Democrat.
City Council and all elected representation are all entirely Democrat.  Overwhelmingly. black Democrat.
Maryland's governor is Republican.  Only the second since 1969.
Maryland's House of Representatives is 92 Democrats & 50 Republicans,
Maryland's Senate is 33 Democrats & 17 Republicans
(I counted them so it's possible my count is off by one or two.)

Maryland is OVERWHELMINGLY Democrat/liberal. This is a problem THEY created. NOT the Republicans.

There's your problem, but since you can't blame this on Republicans, Boooooosh, Joooooooos, Limbaugh or fAuXneWS!!!111!!!eLebIntY!!!1111....  blame Vets.

 :bird:  You're not as smart as you think you are.

Like the cops...we are the strawmen in what is much larger...much uglier problem that no one wants to deal with or discuss.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Creator of the largest Fight Club thread ever!

http://conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=83285.0