Barry's 3D chess vs Hillary's 4D chess.

[dutch508]

An anti-Barry AND an Anti-Hillary post in one post! On DU! ALERT ALERT ALERT!!!!

Hoppy (1,648 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026527590

Obama's playing 3D chess - TPP. We just gotta trust him.
Youse people bitching about Obama pushing TPP, just wait.

You recall when he was gonna renegotiate NAFTA? Well, he's going to complete the TPP negotiations and then tell Wall Street, "If you want me to sign TPP, you've got to give up NAFTA." That'l fix the bastards.

Just wait, you'll see. Obama is on our side.

He's been playing 3D chess all along.

And if you think this is a great plan, wait till Hillary gets to playing 4D chess with the banksters.

 

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
8. Damn I love it how you keep that begged

none begged

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/18/us-usa-mexico-transpacific-idUSBRE85H1LC20120618

http://www.international.gc.ca/media_commerce/comm/news-communiques/2012/10/09a.aspx?lang=eng

None begged. And you should stop using that... because like all else you are doing, this is quite inaccurate.

And yes, I will continue calling you on these inaccuracies.

They are expected, but that does not mean that this should not be called on.

  What the Fuque?

Oh... here:

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
2. Well, TPP is a renegotiated NAFTA since Canada and Mexico begged to be part of it.

 

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
14. You keep mischaracterizing this why this childish attitude?

So... the NADIN is pro-TTP?

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
16. If you think those who oppose the TTP region wide

are conspiracy theorists I cannot help you. But this opposition is NOT just in the U.S. And this opposition in the US is above 70 percent.

Nor is this JUST OBAMA. This is a neo liberal theory of economics that started under Reagan. If you wish to call that a conspiracy, you are welcomed to that. If you wish to continue mischaracterizing what is going on, by all means. Please proceed Governor.

ed. spelling [ ]
 
Further, when Larry Summers comes against it, you are in trouble, this is from the Financial Times back in March


"Some matters that are pushed by elements of the business community have little or nothing to do with the interests of the vast majority of American workers. These include pressuring other countries to change health and safety regulation, to extend and strengthen patent protection and to deregulate financial services. In these areas on grounds of fairness it is reasonable for us to strive for the principle of national treatment — no discrimination against foreign firms — but not to use inherently scarce negotiating power to alter other countries’ basic choices."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/43920bae-c3f3-11e4-9019-00144feab7de.html#axzz3U6cEP8FD

I guess Summers is also a conspiracy theorist and a loon, by your own definition.

 

Pot-Kettle-Nadin-Black

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
17. Summers: "Nonetheless I believe that the right TPP is very much in the American national interest."

Also, from your own link:

"Crucially, TPP is necessary to let American producers compete on a level playing field, given the proliferation of arrangements that do not include the US. Currently, for example, Japanese and Southeast Asian producers get better terms in each others’ markets than the US does. Only through TPP do we have the chance to manage international competition in the interests of American workers through binding arrangements in areas such as labour and environmental standards.

So TPP should be judged not against a hypothetical past world where American workers did not face foreign competition but in the context of a world where trade integration in Asia is happening, with or without the US. Its merit will depend on US negotiating priorities."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/43920bae-c3f3-11e4-9019-00144feab7de.html#axzz3U6cEP8FD


Are purposely misleading people, or is this like the Article 17 Mexican Constitution junk you were posting?

Ooo... the bullies are circling!

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
18. Yes, he is... and I was not purposely misleading. Let me link to my

brain fart ok. We all tend to have them.

340. Forgive me 123

http://www.jacksonlewis.com/media/pnc/0/media.2380.pdf



Article 123 of Mexico’s Constitution, entitled “Labor and Social Security,” expressly recognizes and protects employees’ basic inalienable rights including, but not limited to: vacation, overtime entitlement, job stability, maximum work shift, maternity rights, social security rights, salary protection, profit-sharing entitlement, severance payment in case of unfair dismissal, freedom of association (the right to unionize), and collective bargaining rights, including the right to strike.


http://www.nationalemploymentlawcouncil.org/nonmember/agenda_PDFs/2013/Basics_of_Mexican_Labor_Law.pdf

Since nafta strikes still happen, but far less often because the unions have been weakened. So are those coming back? In particular the CTM is very much weakened.

And it gets worst.


The Mexican Congress is set to pass labor law “reform” this week that will be devastating for millions of workers’ legal rights and incomes. Here members of the independent electrical utility workers’ union (SME) demonstrate against the law. Photo: SME.
The Mexican Congress looks set to pass a piece of fast-track labor law “reform” this week that could be devastating for millions of workers’ legal rights and incomes.

The changes both pro-business parties are agreed on would undermine the 44-hour work week by permitting subcontracting and temporary or part-time work for the first time.

Additional changes that would make it virtually impossible to organize or maintain genuine unions or to strike were part of the legislation introduced September 1, but it appears that some of those changes may be withdrawn under pressure.


- See more at: http://labornotes.org/blogs/2012/09/mexico%E2%80%99s-labor-law-changes-undermine-worker-rights#.dpuf

These reforms, with the rest of the pro business reforms, are in preparation for TTP. There is also an extensive energy reform that essentially privatizes PEMEX, or close to it. Education reform that apes NCLB. I could go on.

I am sorry, my mind kept going to the series of articles I had to memorize by heart in HS. My point still stands. TTP will not be good for workers.



You might live in that fantasy, the rest of us are not. What we are seeing in San Quintin is exactly what we expect to see TTP trade zone. You should find out more on this. And you and your friend got your talking points from the same ****ing pace.

So go argue with labor. There is a reason why labor trade zone area wide dies not want these types of treaties.
When dealing with real-time broadcasts, I tend to think the onus for avoiding spoilers is primarily on the person who wants to avoid seeing spoilers. Expecting to read social media and be protected from spoilers seems unrealistic. Skinner


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6527884

So no, I was not doing that on purpose

I am not using buggy whip false analogies. I am not calling this a conspiracy or conspiracy theorists. I am not calling two nation states beggars. YOU ARE.

So please proceed governor.

As to the rest of what Summers said, he still stated that this is NOT HELPING THE MIDDLE CLASS. But I expect you to mischaracterize all that is told you, This is your MO. Include your MO also distraction.
 

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
19. Looks to me he says it's vital. You said he was against it. You can't spin that.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
20. No, that is not presicely what he said and you are the one spinning like a top, out of control top. 

So... is NADIN against TTP?

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
21. Nope, I'm laughing hysterically right now. Have a nice day, seriously.

We all laugh at the NADIN.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
22. I welcome your derision it is kind of cute. Your derision for workers is extremely telling though.

 

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
25. Like greatly weakening union rights

Ok.

Because that is what TTP will do by making things like the inability by labor to organize in Vietnam far more standard.

What do you think standardization is all about? You are a fan, we get it, but expect pushback.

Vietnam?

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
27. Would love to see how the TPP will prevent Vietnamese from organizing. As I understand it, Vietnam does not allow labor unions now, sans TPP. So, at worse TPP won't change that, at best it might encourage unions in Vietnam or improved worker rights.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
32. What part of weakening workers rights thoughout the zoneq are you still missing?

Why do you think workers zone wide, distrust this treaty? Oh I forgot buggy whips and conspiracy theories... it could not be because they are perhaps, correct, and even Larry Summers references that standardization of laws and agreements. You think that only includes environmental standards (which will go down as well, or patent law)?

These are serious concerns, but we get it, you are in favor of this... because well Obama. If this was done under Bush, dime on the dollar that you would oppose it. Well because, argle bargle we cannot trust Republicans. You do know the initial negotiations started under Bush... Yes the initial intent was signed in 2009, but the initial talks started in 2002... remind me, who was President then?

I find this actually quite disgusting. This blind partisanship and trust... so if you trust Obama on this, I am sure you trusted Bush too.

And I usually do not use Wiki, but this timeline is pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

So... is NADIN anti-Barry?

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
35. Now you've changed your question, but read 1StrongBlackMan's response.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
36. Read my answer to him those side agreements are dead letter. They have been since the grand daddy of them all, NAFTA. And I did not change the question. I pointed out who started this particular treaty.

Look, you will keep defending this, some of us will keep pushing back, Why? We have seen the result. So far just for the Korea Free Trade Agreement, that we were promised would lead to 70K US based jobs, instead has led to the loss of 40,000, and that is the MOST RECENT experience with these things.

By the way, by your own words, the South Koreans are going to "beg" to get in.

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
40. I did.. This ain't NAFTA. The 40k calculation is based upon assumption that a trade

deficit with Korea represents lost jobs. That's patently wrong.

1StrongBlackMan (18,809 posts)
28. I'll duck in here ...the US TPP Objectives establishes (where there are none), and protects (where there are), collective bargaining rights.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
33. Like NAFTA did

like the Colombia FTA. what about CAFTA? Korea FTA? I could go down the list. That is usually noted for when the dirty unions point to it, but these side agreements are as good as dead letter.

1StrongBlackMan (18,809 posts)
37. I'm not certain about the Columbia FTA, CAFTA or the Korean FTA; but, ...

I am pretty certain NAFTA did not include labor protections, including the right to collectively bargain.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
39. Yes it did, side agreements

which also included rights of migration (waiting for a lawyer to FINALLY GO THERE and use that law in a migration case), as well as environmental protections, They were put in after the Unions and the Sierra Club screamed holly murder.

I remember, perhaps you don't... but I do. I also remember how Mexican labor law was changed to fit the requirements of NAFTA. Labor protections were far better before NAFTA. And Mexican Labor law has once again been changed in expectations of TTP, to once again LOWER labor protections.

 
 

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
42. Could you cite those labor law changes in anticipation of TPP.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
44. I already did to you no less so keep ignoring what is quoted to you.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
54. It is by defintion, under international law., part of the agreement

it goes with it. Since they are attached to the original agreement.

AFTER NAFTA treaties have had them in the agreement and they are just as much dead letter anyway.

Why do you think you had people leaving by the thousands Central America last summer? Why do you think you had a very well documented migration from Mexico to the US in the 1990s?

Last summer it was not just CAFTA, but it was one of the reasons and predicted by social scientists who study these treaties and effects on places like the country side of these nations. It was also predicted due to what happened with NAFTA.

I know some folks really want to trust that this time it will be diferent. But every other treaty has had nasty effects in worker protections and environmental protections, among other things.

Einstein put it best about insanity and doing things over and over again, it will not be different this time. More good paying jobs will flee the US, including whatever remains of the textile industry in the south. Our trade deficit will continue to grow, and worker protection will continue to go down. Oh and climate change, this does not help climate change whatsoever. It will have other nasty effects, like quite possibly ending made in America clauses for DoD contracting, which is just a bad idea from a national security point of view. It will definitely continue with the deindustrialization of the country.

It will also increase the transfer of wealth from the middle classes, whatever remains of them, to the upper 0.0001 percent.

This will stop, sooner or later, but winds and whirlwind come to mind.

 

OK- Back to the OP:

Doctor_J (31,802 posts)
6. he's giving the republicans enough rope to hang themselves. And he's the only adult in the room

liberal_at_heart (9,252 posts)
9. Well whatever chess he's playing, the middle class is losing.

treestar (55,942 posts)
26. Why is it wrong the trust him?

We trust him with the nuclear codes.

I don't see why we have to micromanage on this particular thing.

I think this is becoming a derangement syndrome. Some people decided to make this their anti-Obama cause and ran with it. All trade agreements are horrible and should never be entered into. Not realistic in the 21st century, I'm afraid. I trust Obama's teams to negotiate it more than the Republicans. Though even the Republicans have no motive to make trade go in favor of another country rather than us.

I personally don't trust him with the nuke codes

AND- back to the NADIN

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
43. It is NAFTA alright, ON STEROIDS

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
45. Yep, corrects most if not all the problems cited by Robert Reich in NAFTa. 

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
46. Not according to the same Robert Reich you keep misquoting

Now you will tell me that is becuase it is because none pays attention to him anymore, so he is trying to stay relevant. Want me to find those posts hoyt?

I will save you that typing

Star Member Hoyt (18,690 posts)
80. Reich is just ticked Obama is improving on Reich's NAFTA.

In fact, Twitch still maintains the shortfall in NAFTA
was lack of worker and environmental standards. TPP corrects that. Reich is just ticked he's ignored by Obama and Clinton.

Krugman has been on both sides of issue.

Stiglitz is right about need to raise taxes, but seems to have missed it on TPP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6529690

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
48. He said he still supported NAFTA, just wishes it included better Worker and environmental protections.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
49. No he has not

he really sounds really supporting here, NOT

[go to DU to watch the boring youtube vid]

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
58. Here he is. Your video shows just how pissed he is at Obama for ignoring him and doing a better job of negotiating agreements.


http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Robert_Reich_Free_Trade.htm

A: I don’t think it was a mistake, but it wasn’t really a tremendous help. If you put labor and environmental standards into our trade agreements, it’s not a race to the bottom. If you have an environmental standard and a labor standard that, for example, bars all slave labor, guarantees the right to organize, maintains kind of minimum labor standards throughout the world, you are setting a floor for all nations. It’s not protectionism. This is a way of actually getting everybody up rather than having the bar continue to trend downward. We tried to do this in NAFTA, and, unfortunately, we couldn’t get the Mexican government support. We tried to have a labor and environmental side agreement. I think it would have been a much better agreement had we had that.

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
59. Pissed is your tendentious characterization like Mexico and Canada begged to become part of the process and we are afraid of buggy whip factories going away.

The video shows he is not in favor of TTP, which you said he was.

We get it, you WANT TTP. you LOVE TTP, but your tendentious ways of going about it are irritating to say the least. There are other words that apply here, but tendentious is the least annoying.

Hoyt (18,698 posts)
61. NAFTA was OK since he was an advisor, TPP which is an improvement isn't OK because Reich was no longer an advisor, stuck teaching public policy to freshmen/women at Berkeley (which would be a dream job for most).

nadinbrzezinski (135,834 posts)
62. Nope, it is because like many others he did learn from that error. I see you are not learning from that error. 

AND back to the OP:

Doctor_J (31,802 posts)
34. And don't forget to add it to the list. It will probably be under,

"worked in a bipartisan fashion to pass the greatest economic bill in world history"

 

[SVPete]

I'm still caffeine depraved and couldn't manage to wade very far into the snippery ... was that basically a bit of nauseating sycophancy and a whole lot of bickering? My guess is that nads is bridling at the idea that Mexico begged anything of the US.

[dutch508]

I'm still caffeine depraved and couldn't manage to wade very far into the snippery ... was that basically a bit of nauseating sycophancy and a whole lot of bickering? My guess is that nads is bridling at the idea that Mexico begged anything of the US.

Here... let me summarize:


TEH NADIN IS BACK, BITCHES!!!!!!!

[Carl]

I thought it said 4D chest so figured this was a thread about 

[DumbAss Tanker]

I'm still caffeine depraved and couldn't manage to wade very far into the snippery ... was that basically a bit of nauseating sycophancy and a whole lot of bickering? My guess is that nads is bridling at the idea that Mexico begged anything of the US.

Yeah, me too.  I did gather that even a DUmmie like Hoyt has figured out that Reich is basically a self-promoting egotistical assclown first and foremost, though.

[obumazombie]

Anything the libs and DUmmies fight about should get our wholehearted support and if need be, assistance.

[SVPete]

Anything the libs and DUmmies fight about should get our wholehearted support and if need be, assistance.

Absitively, possolutely!

[franksolich]

"holly murder"

 

[FlippyDoo]

"holly murder"

 

Trained historian, raving reporter, botanical homicide expert? She's everything. I'm just glad she's back.

[Duke Nukum]

Hillary losing in 2008 is part of her massive, life-long 4D chess game, along with getting fired off the Watergate team, making $100,000 in cattle futures, heading the bimbo eruption squad,suckering pensioners in the Whitewater scandal, and so on.

Even if Hillary loses this time or isn't the nominee, it is all a part of her 4D strategery.

In fact, me even typing this post is part of Hillary's 4D chess game. 

It's spooky-scary!

[FlippyDoo]

Hillary losing in 2008 is part of her massive, life-long 4D chess game, along with getting fired off the Watergate team, making $100,000 in cattle futures, heading the bimbo eruption squad,suckering pensioners in the Whitewater scandal, and so on.

Even if Hillary loses this time or isn't the nominee, it is all a part of her 4D strategery.

In fact, me even typing this post is part of Hillary's 4D chess game. 

It's spooky-scary!

The only way she can lose is if the VRWC breaks out the 5D chess set and steals the election.

[GOBUCKS]

Way tl;dr.

But clearly the nutcase still calls Trans-Pacific Partnership "TTP".

It's like shooting a riffle.

You welcome.

[FlippyDoo]

A well deserved Hi-5 to GOBUCKS for noticing the TTP. I've become so accustomed to nadinese that I missed it completely until you mentioned it.

You, sir, are today's greatest nadinator of nadinology.

[DumbAss Tanker]

Notice it, Hell!  It was why I had to quit slogging through her stupid shit, before I hit my real TL:DR scanning limit...it hurts to read such lazy and erroneous, yet so pompous and smug, misuse of the language after a long career in which precise and correct writing was an essential skill.

[obumazombie]

A well deserved Hi-5 to GOBUCKS for noticing the TTP. I've become so accustomed to nadinese that I missed it completely until you mentioned it.

You, sir, are today's greatest nadinator of nadinology.

He probably wishes he didn't know that shi*.