Author Topic: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office  (Read 6590 times)

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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2015, 12:01:06 AM »
d508, I'm not going to quote your post, for the sake of brevity, but H-5!!!
...
I have to stop at this point, but the Sherman tank was used again in Korea, as were WW2 type infantry rifles.

I know you're quite a military tech buff, but a lot of the things you and others find scandalous are somewhat misstated, and flowed from reasons other than simple budget or political constraints, such as wartime resource allocation and the role of the technical boards within the War and Navy Departments as well as issues like wartime resource allocation and the use of not-unlimited logistic assets to move materials, equipment, and units.

Just to discuss the last little bit, for instance, "Sherman tanks" takes in such a huge variety of vehicles and armament suites that the only thing they really have in common are the words 'Sherman tank.'  The ones used in Korea were not intended to be the primary tank for the theater but were refurbed and fielded until enough M26s and M46s could be fielded...and on top of that, the Shermans used in Korea were the wide-tracked HVSS models like the 'Easy eight' (M4A3E8) with a high-velocity 76, and fully-sloped (47-degree) frontal armor, fielded initially only in December 1945, and quite superior to even the best common models of the Panzer IV and StuGs, the actual mainstays of the   Wehrmacht, and able to effectively engage Panthers if at some disadvantage (Though the Panthers were being so heavily attritted by Allied air and artillery dominance at that point that they were unable to effectively counter the -E2 and -E8 Shermans).  A lot of dumbasses who play computer games, take the History channel as gospel, and have never been inside a real tank call them 'Marginal improvements' over the cast-hull VVSS narrow-track 'Ronsons' fielded in 1942.  These people are dopes, the only thing the M4 and M4A3E2/8 have in common is a general shape, six road wheels on each side (Using, however, utterly different track and suspension systems), but practically nothing was interchangeable between them, everything else - size, armament, armor thickness and placement, ground pressure, and powertrain - were completely different.

In Korea, the vanishingly-few tank-to-tank encounters involved T34/85s on the Red side, about all the Norks had, and not in huge numbers.  While the T34 had fine mobility and a good ballistic shape, its 85mm main gun was only roughly equal to a German 75L48 (Not the L70, though) or the American 76mm (And nowhere near the same league as the 90mm on the M26/M46), their tank-to-tank commo was hand-signals and flags rather than FM radios, and their ability to train the unstabilized main gun was mainly a cranking job rather than the powerful and reliable hydraulics on the American tanks, which also had stabilization systems.  The entire T34 family, and its descendants until the T64 and T72, used dry-pin track with no grousers which both wore out more rapidly than bushed track and had markedly inferior climbing ability in the hilly Korean terrain.  The Christie-type suspension had been a huge innovation in the BT series tanks, continued with and additional road wheel and beefier construction in the T34s, but it was quite difficult to service when one of the massive coil springs broke and consumed considerable internal hull space; the Sherman's HVSS and 23" wide tracks were at least competitive in mobility and much more easily serviced, being entirely external, and the M26/M46's torsion bar system was its equal in deflection and thus mobility, and quite superior in serviceability as well as availability of the full hull width for internal storage of fuel and ammo and large powertrain components, a deficiency the Soviets fixed with the T34's successors by switching to torsion bar suspension.

The M26 was actually fielded for combat testing in the final few weeks of the war in Europe (Despite GEN Patton's and the ARMY's resistance, NOT that of the politicians), and came out approximately even in a few encounters with Tiger Is; the primary difference between the M46 and the M26 were in the drivetrain and placement of the final drives, not the turret, armament, or frontal armor, and even the later M47 and M48 were basically improved M46s, still with 90mm main guns.  Even the basic M60 turtle-turret was the same casting as the M48 turret, US tank design was highly evolutionary until the MBT70 program.

In the Pusan perimeter battles, though, the high tide of Nork armor advances, the thing that actually checked them was the arrival in theater of the 'Super bazooka,' i.e. the 3.5" bazooka, after the WW2 2.36" bazooka had proved ineffective (For reasons concerning which it is difficult to find much factual information, since it had proven quite effective against German tanks that were equally-well armored in the ETO); the 3.5" bazooka was to all intents and purposes a US improved copy of the 88mm Panzerschreck, itself a German improved copy of a captured 2.36" bazooka.

As far as the use of WW2 rifles is concerned, the Garand actually remained a world-beater through the end of Korean hostilities, the Norks and ChiComs were armed almost entirely with Moisin-Nagant pattern bolt-action rifles or PPSh/PPS patterned SMGs.  Despite the nominal adoption of the Simonov's SKS and Kalashnikov's AK by the Red Army well before the Norks crossed the 38th Parallel, they weren't exactly handing them out to the farm team henchmen then or for quite a few years afterward.  The awkward 'en-bloc' loading system with its 8-round capacity was a product of Army board requirements, one in which both industry and politicians had completely clean hands.  Despite its weak hitting power, the M1 through M3 carbines, as well as the BAR and the entire line of German Sturmgewehre and literally everyone's SMGs, had proved the concerns about the fragility of removable magazines to be an entirely illusory problem, but in the absence of driving need, the Garand's successors like the BM59 and M14 were still gestating, as were the quantum jumps like the FAL and AR systems.   
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Offline dutch508

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2015, 03:01:10 AM »
There is a really good book about the 70th Tank Battalion in Korea during the war. They were the 'school' battalion at Fort Knox in '50. Most of the heavy armor ahd been mothballed after WW2 (sound familiar?) and the battalion was the only active duty unit that could respond quick enough to the NK invasion of the south. The literally rounded up enought tanks from the motorpool and displays to ship out and get into Korea intime for the breakout from Pusan. In mostly M26s to boot!
I helped the veterans put together their stories in the book, "Stike Swifty" the soty of the 70th Tank in Korea 1950-1953.

I think it's still being published.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 04:33:39 AM »
Upon some reflection on the drive in this moring, I think that what Huckabee said is the wrong message to send to current and potential members of the military...especially if he's thinking of running for President.

He's asking us to choose sides in a profession where we serve the President no matter whether we voted for him or not and it's wrong to try and convince us to do so based on the superficial "logic" of "don't join until there's someone with an 'R' by their name". 

I've served under more Dem Presidents than I have Republican ones.
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Offline SVPete

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 08:12:38 AM »
I know you're quite a military tech buff, but a lot of the things you and others find scandalous are somewhat misstated, and flowed from reasons other than simple budget or political constraints, such as wartime resource allocation and the role of the technical boards within the War and Navy Departments as well as issues like wartime resource allocation and the use of not-unlimited logistic assets to move materials, equipment, and units.

OK, I haven't read very far into your post, but already want to thank you. I've read some in military history, and I've had some exposure to recent military technology through past and current jobs. My first job in Silicon Valley was at a company that produced display systems for military aircraft. A couple things I've learned are that much that is published is over-simplified (I've obviously done so, not that I'm any sort of expert, e.g. in not mentioning that the Sherman was classified as a "medium" tank, and the Tiger a "heavy"), and that there is always more that can be learned. It is for the latter that I'm thanking and H-5ing you.
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Offline Gina

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2015, 09:03:23 PM »
Quote
They already do. There is a push to remove Chaplains from the military. There is a push to remove churches from Military bases. Shit- at the Aif Force Academy there is a push to remove any reference to Christianity at the same time promoting pagan and athiests!

Who will they call to when they are in a foxhole in their final moments?  :whistling:






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Offline franksolich

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2015, 09:45:15 PM »
I have to say--as a lifelong professional civilian--that this whole bit really bothers me.

I have no idea what I "owe" to the United States armed forces, other than that it's some really enormous debt and unbounded gratitude.

Remember what that famous English socialist said: "people sleep peacefully in bed at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Or something like that.  The primitives need to remember--but of course they won't--who's responsible for their being able to lead the lives of security and safety they do.

Actually, they can put themselves under the "protection," the guardianship, of Skippy's pals, the Islamacist terrorists, and see what happens.

<<<wishes they would, really.

And what's most admirable is the sheer professionalism of the United States armed forces; true to their job description, they're willing to protect any of us.

I couldn't be that professional; about half the country, and all of the primitives, if threatened, I'd just say, "okay, die, you ****ers," and walk away.
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2015, 11:01:49 PM »
I couldn't be that professional; about half the country, and all of the primitives, if threatened, I'd just say, "okay, die, you ****ers," and walk away.

Yeah, well, it's not that we don't feel some of that too, but the duty thing and all that, ya know...
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That here, obedient to their law, we lie.

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Offline thundley4

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2015, 11:32:47 PM »
Yeah, well, it's not that we don't feel some of that too, but the duty thing and all that, ya know...

Is it that, or is it like everything else is with the DUmmies? They benefit from what others deserve?  In  this case, they are the opposite of collateral damage, but more like collateral people defended.

Offline obumazombie

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 11:21:31 AM »
Chrissie "tingle up my leg" Matthews is insinuating that Huckabee should be charged with sedition.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2015, 11:32:07 AM »
Chrissie "tingle up my leg" Matthews is insinuating that Huckabee should be charged with sedition.

Not surprised in the least. 

Remember when dissent was Patriotic?
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Offline thundley4

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2015, 05:57:42 PM »
Chrissie "tingle up my leg" Matthews is insinuating that Huckabee should be charged with sedition.

Sedition or treason should have been considered as charges against the entire media during the Vietnam War.

Offline delilahmused

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Re: Wait To Join Military Until President Obama Leaves Office
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2015, 07:03:09 PM »
Upon some reflection on the drive in this moring, I think that what Huckabee said is the wrong message to send to current and potential members of the military...especially if he's thinking of running for President.

He's asking us to choose sides in a profession where we serve the President no matter whether we voted for him or not and it's wrong to try and convince us to do so based on the superficial "logic" of "don't join until there's someone with an 'R' by their name". 

I've served under more Dem Presidents than I have Republican ones.

My son always tells me they took an oath to protect the Constitution, not to serve one man. Yes, they serve at the pleasure of the president but they swear no oath to him or any other man. 0bama is a horrid CinC.

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