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Offline Carl

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How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« on: January 28, 2015, 09:37:06 PM »
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026148202

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Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:17 PM

 kpete (45,139 posts)

How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
 
How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers
by mmankoff


I think it might be of interest to those attentive to the heated discussion regarding Clint Eastwood's film, American Sniper, and the varied responses to the protagonist to quote from Max Hastings' Armageddon on the perception of snipers from the perspective of the infantryman. Hastings, the pre-eminent military journalist/historian of WWII, author of many books on that conflict, focuses on the last year of the war in the European theatre and carefully examines the experiences and thoughts of those fighting on the ground for the American, British, Russian and German armies.

The following quotation is from page 88.


"Almost every soldier on both sides shared a hatred of snipers, which frequently caused them to be shot out of hand if captured. There was no logic or provision of the Geneva Convention to justify such action. Sniping merely represented the highest refinement of the infantry soldier's art. Its exercise required courage and skill. Yet, sniping made the random business of killing, in which they were all engaged, become somehow personal and thus unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers."



The sniper is perceived as a different sort of person, even by fellow soldiers. That difference is not one which is admired, but produces a revulsion that crosses national boundaries.

If Hasting's observations from WWII still hold, when the infantrymen are volunteers and not simply conscripts, it may be that those who lionize the American sniper Eastwood depicts, only do so because they have not experienced him close and personal. If they did, they might have second thoughts.



http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/28/1360663/-How-Snipers-are-Viewed-by-Soldiers


btw, , sit down mr. eastwood, your chair is ready
mr pete read the book - says you left the TRUTH out.
He adds that it is also quite juvenile: "duck hunt with arabs".



from last year:
http://mpmacting.com/blog/2014/7/19/truth-justice-and-the-curious-case-of-chris-kyle

I am a civilian but I bet I can say pretty accurately **** you.  :bird:

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:40 PM

braddy (552 posts)
1. Do you think that our Infantry prefers to fight, without us having snipers?

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Response to braddy (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:08 PM

 whatchamacallit (10,512 posts)
9. We get it

Just pay attention to the TOS and you can hang out indefinitely, mouthing wingnut military obsessions.

 :censored:

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Response to braddy (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:41 PM

Bandit (21,349 posts)
23. Yes most definitely I do

We have other means.. Snipers are a form of terrorism.

Eat shit and die.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:32 PM

dilby (1,625 posts)
18. The old, "unless it was hand to hand with a knife it was not real warfare" argument.

Sorry but sniper serve a valuable purpose in warfare, if they did not then we would not use them.

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Response to dilby (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:49 PM

Bandit (21,349 posts)
28. We did not use them when I was a grunt

We were not supposed to engage the enemy. When we made contact we pulled back and brought the entire world down on Charlie. We would call in guns and artillery and even jet strikes if that is what it took but we never used nor needed sniper killers. Special Forces sent out small five man teams to gather information and never a sniper was needed. They did not want their position to be jeopardized by firing at anyone unnecessar

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Response to dilby (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:53 PM

Bandit (21,349 posts)
31. Charlie didn't tip you off I guess

It wasn't even called a WAR but a Conflict or Police Action. Vietnam where we were engaged with the third largest army on the face of the earth and lost over fifty thousand American soldiers. And NEVER heard of any snipers being used.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #31)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 04:06 PM

Telcontar (63 posts)
41. Man named Hathcock would like a word

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Response to Telcontar (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 04:08 PM

Bandit (21,349 posts)
43. Bring him on...

His was not a known name in any of the units I was in or around. We valued Cobras and Guns, they were far more effective.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 04:10 PM

Telcontar (63 posts)
46. Heh, ok keyboard commando

If you don't know who is was, you probably never served

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Response to Telcontar (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 04:20 PM

Bandit (21,349 posts)
50. Ever heard of Major Maguire or a Maguire Rig

If not then you might just be a keyboard commando. There is not a single Special Forces member that does not know about Maguire rigs. Your post was asinine.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #50)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 06:17 PM

 Adrahil (2,473 posts)
60. Ummm there WERE snipers in Vietnam Nam.... n/t

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Response to Bandit (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 28, 2015, 06:22 PM

DustyJoe (361 posts)
62. INFANTRY ?????

What unit were you in you were not supposed to engage the enemy ? Certainly not an Infantry unit.
I sure got into the wrong unit. The 199th Light Infantry was an Airmobile unit that were specifically flown to hotspots to interdict, engage and kill the enemy. Not flown in, look around, withdraw and call for help.

During TET 1968 the 199th was the only major reaction force in and around Saigon during the first days of Tet, they were charged with clearing the infamous Cholon district of Saigon including the Phu Tho Racetrack. Hardly making contact and pulling back, but routing them out of their stronghold and chasing them all the way back across the Cambodian border.

Line companies of the 199th usually had a complement of 2 snipers that carried M14 or Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70. These guys were not looked down on by their mates, but called on for very important anti-sniper and long range targets.

Seems like a few here talk the talk, but never walked the walk.

Another DUmp imposter bites the dust.
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Offline Chris_

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 09:51:19 PM »
Quote
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:17 PM
 kpete (45,139 posts)

How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
Because if anyone at the DUmp knows what they're talking about, it's kpete.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 10:02:07 PM »
DUmmies will do anything and everything to justify hating someone in the military.
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Offline Delmar

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 10:15:32 PM »
I guess the primitives are just going to stick to their guns on the sniper debate no matter how wrong they are and how stupid it makes them look.

A hint for lurking primitives:  You don't even have to admit that you are wrong, just shut your mouths and drop the subject and move on with your lives or go ahead and keep on making fools out of yourselves.

Democrat underground's idea of a good soldier:  A wiccan chaplain.

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Offline 98ZJUSMC

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 10:53:15 PM »
Quote
"Almost every soldier on both sides shared a hatred of snipers, which frequently caused them to be shot out of hand if captured. There was no logic or provision of the Geneva Convention to justify such action.

Not even a nice try, assmunch.  He was talking about shooting the sniper out of hand, not sniping itself.

Dickhead.

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Bandit (21,349 posts)
28. We did not use them when I was a grunt   :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

We were not supposed to engage the enemy. When we made contact we pulled back and brought the entire world down on Charlie. We would call in guns and artillery    ::) ::) In military parlance, those are the same, you little bitch and even jet strikes Where did you do basic..... Camp VCR? if that is what it took but we never used nor needed sniper killers.  Dead giveaway...  You couldn't find Vietnam on a map of Indochina.Special Forces sent out small five man teams to gather information and never a sniper was needed.    ::) LRRP's, Force Recon, on and on .They did not want their position to be jeopardized by firing at anyone unnecessar WHAT!?!??!?
Enough asshole....

Go F*ck yourself.  Repeatedly.  Until you are dead.  You are too stupid to be alive and have no clue what you are talking about.

Quote
DustyJoe (361 posts)
62. INFANTRY ?????

What unit were you in you were not supposed to engage the enemy ? Certainly not an Infantry unit.
I sure got into the wrong unit. The 199th Light Infantry was an Airmobile unit that were specifically flown to hotspots to interdict, engage and kill the enemy. Not flown in, look around, withdraw and call for help.

During TET 1968 the 199th was the only major reaction force in and around Saigon during the first days of Tet, they were charged with clearing the infamous Cholon district of Saigon including the Phu Tho Racetrack. Hardly making contact and pulling back, but routing them out of their stronghold and chasing them all the way back across the Cambodian border.

Line companies of the 199th usually had a complement of 2 snipers that carried M14 or Remington Model 700 or Winchester Model 70. These guys were not looked down on by their mates, but called on for very important anti-sniper and long range targets.

Seems like a few here talk the talk, but never walked the walk.

You got that right.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 11:14:40 PM by 98ZJUSMC »
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Offline Delmar

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 11:13:32 PM »
 Jesse Ventura, Michael Moore, Seth Rogen, and democrat underground.  Collective IQ?

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Former pro wrestler and Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura has joined director Michael Moore and actor Seth Rogen in denigrating “American Sniper” and its subject, the late Navy SEAL Chris Kyle.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/28/jesse-ventura-says-american-sniper-real-dirty-harr/#ixzz3QB1h1pE2
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Offline Ptarmigan

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 11:13:40 PM »
I never served. This is utter BS. Typical of DUmmies.  :bs: :bird:
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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 11:13:58 PM »
Quote from: Delmar on January 28, 2015, 11:13:32 PM
Jesse Ventura, Michael Moore, Seth Rogen, and democrat underground.  Collective IQ?


-500
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Offline DumbAss Tanker

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 11:35:41 PM »
Quote
If Hasting's observations from WWII still hold

The operative fallacy in kaputt's whole stupid post.  One of my mentor senior NCOs, when I was a junior NCO, was totally unloved by the 1SGs in the battalion and none of them wanted him in their company, not because he was a dud, but because he would be gone half of the year, every year, either shooting on or coaching the Army marksmanship team.  His assignment in Viet Nam?  Sniper.  Helluva guy.
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 02:16:58 AM »
I guess the Bandit Primitive has never heard of Carlos Hathcock, Adelbert Waldron or Ed Eaton. All are famous and very deadly snipers from Vietnam.

This moron seems to think that because he didn't see them...snipers weren't being employed by his unit.

He didn't see them because they were doing what snipers are supposed to do.
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Offline Bad Dog

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 02:40:48 AM »
Quote from: txradioguy on January 29, 2015, 02:16:58 AM
I guess the Bandit Primitive has never heard of Carlos Hathcock, Adelbert Waldron or Ed Eaton. All are famous and very deadly snipers from Vietnam.

This moron seems to think that because he didn't see them...snipers weren't being employed by his unit.

He didn't see them because they were doing what snipers are supposed to do.

He didn't see them because he wasn't there.  I was, (20 months more than john kewee) snipers were well respected and appreciated.  A giveaway was his reference to Maguire Rigs.  The only places they were used (besides Soldier of Fortune magazine articles) was by the AF and then only in desperation. 
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 02:48:48 AM »
Just like libs calling conservatives racist for opposing owebuma's policies, we should encourage them to voice their true feeling often and forcefully.
Let them make a habit of breaking the first law of hole digging.
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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 04:03:08 AM »
Quote from: Delmar on January 28, 2015, 11:13:32 PM
Jesse Ventura, Michael Moore, Seth Rogen, and democrat underground.  Collective IQ?

From what I heard, Ventura just wants his 2 cents worth in the mix because he's suing Chris' widow and estate over getting decked by Chris in a bar fight.

All of them just need to go somwhere...

I have a very warm place in mind that would fit the bill... 
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Offline RayRaytheSBS

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 06:09:30 AM »
In reference to the article the DUches were quoting; the author had to go back to a book from world war II to find the quote that he thought would justify his agenda. And make him feel morally superior.

Having been sniped at and been to sniper school (I never actually served as a sniper, but have trained several) I can tell you that is not true in the modern military.

Snipers are liked both by the common soldier and leader for different reasons, the soldier loves the fact that the sniper can and does kill the armed irregular, trained marksman, and school trained sniper very frequently.

The commander just loves the fact they are a precision asset, even more so then a JDAM. You can take out one individual and not effect the rest of the community. That helps in a COIN fight to build the case that we are trying to keep the damage to a minimum.

Snipers are also known for gathering intelligence. Though their secondary mission, they do it more frequently than their primary mission (to engage key targets and targets of opportunity with precision fire.). And they do it so well, idiots like the Oxygen-Thieving DUche who claims he was LRRP in Vietnam never saw them.

Speaking as an infantryman, If there is one thing I wish we had more of in my brigade, it would be snipers. Especially in this Unified Land Operations environment we find ourselves in today.

To both the author of the article and the respondents at DU, you know nothing of what you are talking about, sit down in the corner on your  hands so that you don't spout off more weapons-grade stupidity that gets our soldiers killed.

And to both DU and Hufflepuff, all I can say is you are very fortunate men like Chris Kyle, and my fellow snipers , all in whose footsteps you are not worthy to tread, join military and do what they do. Unless you have sacked up, joined, and actually been in a ground combat situation in any MOS, you don't have room to speak. Sit down, shut up and quit your whining about things you know nothing about. 

I'll put it to you in a way you can understand, you talking about sniper employment is about like me talking about how to get more money from SSDI. I have no clue what I'm talking about and will just piss you off.

So stick to what you know, which is not much about anything that matters, and STFU. Oh, and by the way :bigbird:

/rantoff

Sorry for the length of the post, the DUmmies just got me worked up.
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Offline obumazombie

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 06:13:23 AM »
owebuma knows sniping...




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Offline BlueStateSaint

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 06:48:10 AM »
I'm an old(er) cavalryman.  If you want to talk about cavalry operations, I might be able to help you out.  Sniper operations?  I was glad to have them on my side, and petrified that I might wind up in the scope of one from the other side.  That's about it.

They are part of war.  War is Hell.  Get over it.
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Offline landofconfusion80

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 07:37:21 AM »
One of my uncles was a sniper in Vietnam.  definitely a high stress job.  The story about the gentleman relieved of his brain out the back of his head fully intact is pretty interesting though.
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20. absolute bullshit. the cave is unspeakably vile.

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Offline Rebel

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 09:26:58 AM »
What those assholes know about the military, including "Michael McCaffrey, Acting Coach Westside L.A.", could fit in 5% of the sperm reservoir at the tip of a condom.
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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 09:32:08 AM »
Quote from: txradioguy on January 29, 2015, 02:16:58 AM
I guess the Bandit Primitive has never heard of Carlos Hathcock, Adelbert Waldron or Ed Eaton. All are famous and very deadly snipers from Vietnam.

This moron seems to think that because he didn't see them...snipers weren't being employed by his unit.

He didn't see them because they were doing what snipers are supposed to do.

Apache was one evil bitch that would torture our troops, cut their dicks off, stuff their mouths with, and do all kinds of bad shit to our troops in Vietnam. Hathcock took that bitch out along with several of her team. It was a mission he wasn't even supposed to be on, but one he took because he wanted the bitch dead.

Hey lurking DUmbasses, you can bet your stupid asses that the troops in Vietnam were extremely grateful for GySgt Hathcock. You, and the rest of you DUmbasses, don't know DICK about the military.
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There's a reason why patriotism is considered a conservative value. Watch a Tea Party rally and you'll see people proudly raising the American flag and showing pride in U.S. heroes such as Thomas Jefferson. Watch an OWS rally and you'll see people burning the American flag while showing pride in communist heroes such as Che Guevera. --Bob, from some news site

Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 10:42:07 AM »
Quote from: Rebel on January 29, 2015, 09:32:08 AM
Apache was one evil bitch that would torture our troops, cut their dicks off, stuff their mouths with, and do all kinds of bad shit to our troops in Vietnam. Hathcock took that bitch out along with several of her team. It was a mission he wasn't even supposed to be on, but one he took because he wanted the bitch dead.

Hey lurking DUmbasses, you can bet your stupid asses that the troops in Vietnam were extremely grateful for GySgt Hathcock. You, and the rest of you DUmbasses, don't know DICK about the military.
Yeah, she squatted to piss and he knew which one to shoot first....she should have taken her team from among the DUmmie sit to pee menz.
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Offline JohnnyReb

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 11:23:24 AM »
German snipers were given sniper badges for 20/40/60 kills. They would rip the badges off their uniforms if captured because it was rumored that American soldiers shot snipers.
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Offline thundley4

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2015, 01:53:09 PM »
Quote from: diesel driver on January 29, 2015, 04:03:08 AM
From what I heard, Ventura just wants his 2 cents worth in the mix because he's suing Chris' widow and estate over getting decked by Chris in a bar fight.


He won his lawsuit against Chris Kyle's widow. What he is doing now is just pissing on a hero's grave.  Ventura can never go to any SEAL function again without fearing for his safety.
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Offline JakeStyle

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2015, 02:17:41 PM »
Jesse Ventura has no business talking about honor and integrity, he's a 911 truther, and a loud-mouthed conspiracy theory blowhard.  Last I heard, he was moving to Mexico to "live out his life off the grid". I'm guessing that didn't happen.
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Offline FiddyBeowulf

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2015, 02:42:53 PM »
DUmmies hate snipers but have less problems with Obama using drones to do essentially the same thing.
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Offline Skul

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Re: How Snipers are Viewed by Soldiers: "Unacceptable to ordinary footsoldiers"
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 03:09:17 PM »
 Poor stupid rich-bitch KaPete, is confused.
Snipers were deemed "unacceptable", by TWO groups.
The adversarial soldier, and perpetually butt-hurt liberal wymenz and nancymenz.
I got to carry a couple to one of the Charlie outposts up north, and saw a couple at DongHa. I think I wet myself from sheer jealousy. Never, ever, knew a troop that didn't have respect for those guys.
IIRC, tunnel rats were the only others that commanded as much respect.

FUDUmmies, the jackass you ride, and the mangy mutt that follows behind. (I think it's named Jesse)
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