Proglodytes discuss their betters

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

bigtree (54,440 posts)

Righteousness of our 'American Snipers'
     
I read some reviews of the new Clint Eastwood film, 'American Sniper,' which immediately meshed in my mind with a conversation I had this week with a veteran of the Iraq invasion and occupation under Bush. I had steered my veteran conversationalist into a revealing discussion of the roots of his own visible anger and antipathy he expressed often toward the people of the nation where he was deployed and tasked with defending his own troops, along with American interests, against whoever resisted our military's strident advance. In his view, admittedly grossly simplified in my interpretation, American forces represented all that was right and good; and Iraqis, resisting or not, were despicable enemies who deserved whatever retribution our nation's defenders imposed on them.

Lindy West, in The Guardian, describes the real-life individual in the new film who is portrayed by actor Bradley Cooper:

"Chris Kyle, a US navy Seal from Texas, was deployed to Iraq in 2003 and claimed to have killed more than 255 people during his six-year military career. In his memoir, Kyle reportedly described killing as “fun”, something he “loved”; he was unwavering in his belief that everyone he shot was a “bad guy”. “I hate the damn savages,” he wrote. “I couldn’t give a flying **** about the Iraqis.” He bragged about murdering looters during Hurricane Katrina, though that was never substantiated..."

My young veteran discussant is remarkably in agreement with me about the foolishness and folly of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq, yet, even as he expresses agreement that Americans have no business committing soldiers to fight and die in that country, he's just as adamantly convinced in a remarkable and appalling dehumanization of the Iraqi people that they all deserve to die; in his estimation, at the point of a U.S. nuclear attack which would 'wipe them all out.'

Delving deeper into his reasoning this week, he makes clear to me where the seeds of his revulsion for Iraqis lies. It appears that he lost quite a few of his close comrades in arms during the Iraq deployments in nearly 10-year enlistment in the Army; many of those under his command while serving as a Staff Sgt. in the infantry. That's enough said from him, to me. I'm not going to make broad judgments about the righteousness or banality of his personal view. I wasn't there and I can't put myself anywhere near his own experiences to make those judgments for him. I can only express my own revulsion toward any killing; justified, rationalized, or not; certainly opposed with all of my heart and mind to any suggestion that the entire country of Iraqis deserve to die to assuage American fears or any perceived defense of our nation or interests.

Yet, it is precisely those same kinds of vengeful and defensive sentiments expressed by this young veteran which compel many Americans to support continued military attacks against Iraqis and others in the region where our troops are deployed which are faceless, even nameless, to the vast majority of us. I would imagine its that same dichotomy between fearful Americans and our new Iraqi-based nemesis which inspires the similar storyline in this latest war film from Eastwood.

Lindy West writes in the The Guardian:

"...much of the US right wing appears to have seized upon 'American Sniper' with similarly shallow comprehension – treating it with the same unconsidered, rah-rah reverence that they would the national anthem or the flag itself. Only a few weeks into its release, the film has been flattened into a symbol to serve the interests of an ideology that, arguably, runs counter to the ethos of the film itself. How much, if at all, should Eastwood concern himself with fans who misunderstand and misuse his work? If he, intentionally or not, makes a hero out of Kyle – who, bare minimum, was a racist who took pleasure in dehumanising and killing brown people – is he responsible for validating racism, murder, and dehumanisation? Is he a propagandist if people use his work as propaganda?"

That same sentiment runs through the reasoning of my young vet who, despite anguishing about the time spent away from his family, even now, with his civilian job, expressed a desire this week to re-enlist; to go back to Iraq to 'kill more Iraqis.' Not surprisingly, he's also looking forward to viewing this new war film - enamored, no doubt, by the notion of an 'American hero' employed in decidedly righteous executions, in his mind, of the 'enemies' our government and military define and promote there.

More ominously, our Democratic president is said to be poised to ask the republican-led Congress for a new authorization to use military force in Iraq which includes actual and open 'boots-on-the-ground' which he's been opportunistically avoiding as a way of forestalling any judgment by legislators under the War Powers Act clock (right now, he's advantaging authorization of his military force in Iraq and Syria under the 9-11 AUMF which is supposed to be for the 'war' he's straining to portray as ending in Afghanistan).

I expressed my own objections to my young vet of viewing portrayals like the ones billed in 'American Sniper;' expressed my concern that these types of films romanticize war to the extent that convince many young Americans to join the cause, convinced within their own naive rationale that they would be able to overcome the odds that their own lives would be sacrificed; not to mention the loss of other innocent lives in the way of their military and government-sanction violence. I probably won't see the film.

I strongly urged this young veteran to reconsider his desire to join the military again; to try and find other ways (other than the alcoholism which he admits plagues him) to suppress and allay the anger he feels daily, even now, years after his deployments which have injured him both physically and mentally. I have genuine sympathy for this former soldier. He frequently laughs about and ridicules my 'bleeding heart;' I tell him that my heart 'bleeds' for him, as well.

Lindy West writes:

The patriots go on, and on and on. They cannot believe what they are reading. They are rushing to the defence of not just Kyle, but their country, what their country means. They call for the rape or death of anyone ungrateful enough to criticise American hero Chris Kyle. Because Chris Kyle is good, and brown people are bad, and America is in danger, and Chris Kyle saved us. The attitude echoes what Miller articulated about Kyle in her Salon piece: “his steadfast imperviousness to any nuance, subtlety or ambiguity, and his lack of imagination and curiosity, seem particularly notable”.

"There is no room for the idea that Kyle might have been a good soldier but a bad guy; or a mediocre guy doing a difficult job badly; or a complex guy in a bad war who convinced himself he loved killing to cope with an impossible situation; or a straight-up serial killer exploiting an oppressive system that, yes, also employs lots of well-meaning, often impoverished, non-serial-killer people to do oppressive things over which they have no control. Or that Iraqis might be fully realised human beings with complex inner lives who find joy in food and sunshine and family, and anguish in the murders of their children. Or that you can support your country while thinking critically about its actions and its citizenry. Or that many truths can be true at once."

I wholeheartedly agree with that. Even as I grieve and anguish for the victims of U.S. military aggression, I sincerely wish my young veteran discussant, and his fellow compatriots-in-arms, healing and success in their lives. I weep for their future, and for their past, as well.

bigtree (54,440 posts)

1. kick

TRANSLATION: Love me, ple-e-e-e-ease!

Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)

2. What gives me pause is the realization that these monsters.

Trained in the art of killing, torture or counter insurgency, come to live among us after their professional orgy of violence and murder is complete.

In Japan the generation that lived that life is largely dead by now. Same with the Germans who massacred millions.

Other countries churn these types out every day. Do you want them as your neighbor and in your community?

bigtree (54,440 posts)

5. I want to believe we can assume more responsibility for these soldiers
 
. . . many of whom begin their service as impressionable youth. Of course, the military culture encourages much of these attitudes toward killing, and to view these relationships with all of the people they encounter in these countries in conflict as enemies.

I want to help them readjust to life in our communities, in my own community. I take the position that I'm mostly fine, in comparison to the issues and problems facing their return from battle, and they have very real need for individuals and programs which will redirect their energy and efforts toward peaceful pursuits. I don't see most of our veterans as hopelessly flawed by their antipathies and views. Some are hopelessly engulfed by their hatred and contempt for their former antagonists, but I understand that many can be helped and desperately need our support and understanding to draw them away from the aggressive and adversarial culture and posture they relied on in the field to survive.

Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)

6. Rather than manage the symptoms we should work towards eliminating the cause.
 
America does not need to breed killers and send them around the world to kill. Japan and Germany two nations where you don't need to worry the guy next to you at the grocery store who you bumped into is a trained killer who likes to kill.

It's as if a defensive military is impossible to imagine. Sad reality we have created for ourselves.

bigtree (54,440 posts)

7. of course
 
...that's a pretty tall order.

I wish for that (work for that) as well.

Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)

8. "...that's a pretty tall order. "
 
In an era of unending war, it is, but that's the reality Bush and others imposed on us.

Remember the oft promised peace dividend. Where did that go? We need to get back on track to leading by example not leading at the barrel of a gun.

True Fact: There was never a war until Bush invented it.

dissentient (202 posts)

3. I just think it's easy to understand why so many veterans end up killing themselves

I can't imagine how hard that would be to deal with, that you killed other human beings, and have to live with it.

Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)

4. Often this are the ones with a shred of humanity left.
 
People with actual emotions and a moral compass.

Die in a fire.

bigtree (54,440 posts)

10. »

Love me-e-e-e-e!

bigtree (54,440 posts)

11. »

Ple-e-e-e-e-ease!

bigtree (54,440 posts)

12. »

Why won't more people love me?

I'm hating as fast as I can.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026071774

[JohnnyReb]

Do I want Chris Kyle for a neighbor or a DUmmie....hmmmm....do I really need to think about it?

[Delmar]

Response to bigtree (Original post)Sun Jan 11, 2015, 02:13 PM
Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)
2. What gives me pause is the realization that these monsters.

Trained in the art of killing, torture or counter insurgency, come to live among us after their professional orgy of violence and murder is complete.

In Japan the generation that lived that life is largely dead by now. Same with the Germans who massacred millions.

Other countries churn these types out every day. Do you want them as your neighbor and in your community?

I'll take a veteran for a neighbor over a good-for-nothing primitive any day of the week.

[Carl]

He killed muzzie butchers,that is always a good thing as of late we have seen what live ones do.

much of the US right wing appears to have seized upon 'American Sniper' with similarly shallow comprehension – treating it with the same unconsidered, rah-rah reverence that they would the national anthem or the flag itself

You mean like the left has done over Fahrenheit  9-11  or An Inconvenient Truth by lard asses Moore and Gore?

[JohnnyReb]

He killed muzzie butchers,that is always a good thing as of late we have seen what live ones do.


You mean like the left has done over Fahrenheit  9-11  or An Inconvenient Truth by lard asses Moore and Gore?

Just what I need in my life, Moore Gore.

[thundley4]

Other countries churn these types out every day. Do you want them as your neighbor and in your community?

I would rather have a lot of vets in my neighborhood than a bunch of ObamaSons.

OTOH, there are Muslims living in the US, that are leaving to wage Jihad in other countries and then return here.  Conservatives want to cancel their passports while they are fighting against US interests, but liberals want to allow them to come back and make attacks on the US homeland.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

...but liberals want to allow them to come back and make attacks on the US homeland.

The tin-foil hatter in me thinks they look forward to it because they:

1) think theocratic imperialist corporate AmeriKKKa deserves it

2) will swoop in and play the peace-brokering heroes

3) hope it will feed their anti-2nd Amendment propaganda.

[thundley4]

The tin-foil hatter in me thinks they look forward to it because they:

1) think theocratic imperialist corporate AmeriKKKa deserves it

2) will swoop in and play the peace-brokering heroes

3) hope it will feed their anti-2nd Amendment propaganda.

I'm willing to go so far that if someone was granted asylum here because of violence in their home country, that if they ever travel back to their home country or another  where jihads happen, then they should lose their asylum.

[docstew]

I'm willing to go so far that if someone was granted asylum here because of violence in their home country, that if they ever travel back to their home country or another  where jihads happen, then they should lose their asylum.

+1

[ChuckJ]

Response to bigtree (Original post)Sun Jan 11, 2015, 02:13 PM
Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)
2. What gives me pause is the realization that these monsters.

Trained in the art of killing, torture or counter insurgency, come to live among us after their professional orgy of violence and murder is complete.

In Japan the generation that lived that life is largely dead by now. Same with the Germans who massacred millions.

Other countries churn these types out every day. Do you want them as your neighbor and in your community?

True story. Just as I started to reply to this, the young man who lives next to me knocked on the door. He's active duty military . He's been to the war zone. Twice, i believe. He's also the nicest, most polite and respectful guy you'd want to meet.

I'll take him as a neighbor over a DUmmie any day of the week.

[delilahmused]

bigtree (54,440 posts)

5. I want to believe we can assume more responsibility for these soldiers
 
. . . many of whom begin their service as impressionable youth. Of course, the military culture encourages much of these attitudes toward killing, and to view these relationships with all of the people they encounter in these countries in conflict as enemies.

I want to help them readjust to life in our communities, in my own community. I take the position that I'm mostly fine, in comparison to the issues and problems facing their return from battle, and they have very real need for individuals and programs which will redirect their energy and efforts toward peaceful pursuits. I don't see most of our veterans as hopelessly flawed by their antipathies and views. Some are hopelessly engulfed by their hatred and contempt for their former antagonists, but I understand that many can be helped and desperately need our support and understanding to draw them away from the aggressive and adversarial culture and posture they relied on in the field to survive.

They're at their worst when they bring out the condescending, holier-than-thou ass! These men and women are NOT victims. Most of them wouldn't want to come within 50 ft. of a DUmmie. When the boy king visits a base they have to make people go. When Bush (you know, someone who respects them) visits they ask to see him.

Cindie

[DumbAss Tanker]

I'd much rather have a bunch of Chris Kyles for neighbors than a bunch of moonbat Progs.

[98ZJUSMC]

Jesus Malverde (6,825 posts)

2. What gives me pause is the realization that these monsters.

Trained in the art of killing, torture or counter insurgency, come to live among us after their professional orgy of violence and murder is complete.

Happens after every war, mope.  Guess who will be there to crush the revolution you so desire?

In Japan the generation that lived that life is largely dead by now. Same with the Germans who massacred millions.

Just where do you think the survivors lived for the last almost 70 years, retard?

[98ZJUSMC]

I'd much rather have a bunch of Chris Kyles for neighbors than a bunch of moonbat Progs.

  *******ed right.

Quote from: thundley4 on January 18, 2015, 04:05:01 PM
I'm willing to go so far that if someone was granted asylum here because of violence in their home country, that if they ever travel back to their home country or another  where jihads happen, then they should lose their asylum.

Shouldn't even be a question.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

It's the DUmmies at their most repulsive. Bunch of smug, traitorous vermin.

"much of the US right wing appears to have seized upon 'American Sniper' with similarly shallow comprehension – treating it with the same unconsidered, rah-rah reverence that they would the national anthem or the flag itself."
Ah, the old condescending "Having any kind of love or pride for your own country (If that country is America, that is) and its symbols= Brainless jingoism" BS.
Of course, they also play the race card for all they're worth. News flash: He wasn't referring to all or even most people of Arabic descent as "Savages." He was using that term to refer to people like "The butcher" and the other deranged insurgent terrorists who were taught to value death more than life and seek to spill as much "Infidel" blood as they possibly could. Such people are indeed worthy to be called "Savages," due to how horrifically savage their actions are.

"Jesus Malverde" sounds like a truly loathsome excuse for a human being in every sense.
He refers to our servicemen, people who gave their all to help protect our country (And, in the case of Chris Kyle, to protect as many of his fellow troops as possible from being slaughtered by the demented insurgents), as "Monsters," refers to their tours of duty as a "professional orgy of violence and murder," and implies that veterans have no place in our country's neighborhoods.
Hey Malverde, if you ever read this, I'd rather have someone like Chris Kyle as a neighbor than someone like you or your fellow DUmmies, you revolting, obscene, disgraceful, traitorous, gutless little cockroach.

btw, I just heard that 'American Sniper' has beaten the weekend box- office record set by the asinine ultra- liberal propaganda film 'Avatar' (A film which the DUmmies treated with "Unconsidered, rah- rah reverence" much more than conservatives have done with 'American Sniper'). Suck on that, DUmmies!

[whiffleball]

Horse shit!  This quote from the Prog ".....I sincerely wish my young veteran discussant, and his fellow compatriots-in-arms, healing and success in their lives. I weep for their future, and for their past, as well," is designed only to make him look wise and caring in the eyes of his fellow Progs.  It's such unmitigated bullshit that I'm seeing red!

If you actually gave one shit, just one, about veterans, you damn, stupid, hypocritical POS, you'd be volunteering to listen to vets instead of lecturing them.  You'd be at vet centers, hospitals and clinics doing something constructive rather than wooing and dazzling your fellow damn, stupid, hypocritical POS's with your pearls of wisdom on a damn, stupid, hypocritical POS web site.