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Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: ScubaGuy on November 07, 2012, 12:53:08 PM

Title: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: ScubaGuy on November 07, 2012, 12:53:08 PM

My guess is that Arizona, Texas and the moving companies are going to like this idea. :lmao:


DUmmies (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021753697)
Quote
Star Member tjwash (7,872 posts)

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California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Looks like prop 30 is going to pass! That raises taxes on the highest incomes in the state.

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin
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Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Mr Mannn on November 07, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
California will gut itself like a fish.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 07, 2012, 01:03:52 PM
I live in the moonbattiest city in kalifornia. Not a single one of my votes went for a win. Not. A. Single. One.

The USA is only going to be a shade less blue than kalifornia.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: wasp69 on November 07, 2012, 01:06:35 PM
Quote
Star Member tjwash (7,872 posts)

California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Looks like prop 30 is going to pass! That raises taxes on the highest incomes in the state.

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin

Remember this day and this post, DUmbass, when the news reports come out that much less than forecast revenue came into the state coffers.  Remember that you cheered for the producers to be run out on a rail.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NskHRjI-G8w/TkmEEWBolSI/AAAAAAAAIec/EeVnaLi7GcU/s1600/own%2Bit.JPG)
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: txradioguy on November 07, 2012, 01:08:34 PM
My guess is that Arizona, Texas and the moving companies are going to like this idea. :lmao:


DUmmies (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021753697)

Those 1%'ers the DUmmies are all giddy about being taxed more include their beloved Hollyweird Libtard types.

Those moving vans need to bring those amoral assholes anywhere BUT my beloved Texas.  :hammer:
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zeus on November 07, 2012, 01:12:43 PM
I live in the moonbattiest city in kalifornia. Not a single one of my votes went for a win. Not. A. Single. One.

The USA is only going to be a shade less blue than kalifornia.

Didn't the Kalicommies also agree to a sales tax increase?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Celtic Rose on November 07, 2012, 01:13:29 PM
I looked through my mom's sample ballot while I was out in California a few weeks ago, and then I sat down and did some math.  I realized that between the state tax rate and the cost of living, financially I was better off working in Nebraska, even with the significant difference in pay.  That state is going to self destruct.  
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Gina on November 07, 2012, 01:16:38 PM
I REALLY think someone needs to find out the addresses of all that live in CA that are rich and liberal.  Then I want to see them tracked and noted when they move out of the state with their money.  Lets see how many do it.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Wineslob on November 07, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
Didn't the Kalicommies also agree to a sales tax increase?


Ya, and I don't think any of the Libtards actually read the damn thing.


From Wiki:

Quote
Proposition 30, a Sales and Income Tax Increase Initiative, was on the November 6, 2012 ballot in California as an initiated constitutional amendment, where it was approved.[1]
Gov. Jerry Brown led the charge for Proposition 30, which was a merger of two previously competing initiatives; the "Millionaire's Tax" and Brown's First Tax Increase Proposal.[2]
Proposition 30:
Raises California’s sales tax to 7.5% from 7.25%, a 3.45% percentage increase over current law. (Under the Brown Tax Hike, the sales tax would have increased to 7.75%)[3][4]
Creates four high-income tax brackets for taxpayers with taxable incomes exceeding $250,000, $300,000, $500,000 and $1,000,000. This increased tax will be in effect for 7 years.[3][5][6]
Imposes a 10.3% tax rate on taxable income over $250,000 but less than $300,000--a percentage increase of 10.6% over current policy of 9.3%. The 10.3% income tax rate is currently only paid by taxpayers with over $1,000,000 in taxable income.[7].
Imposes an 11.3% tax rate on taxable income over $300,000 but less than $500,000--a percentage increase of 21.5% over current policy of 9.3%.
Imposes a 12.3% tax rate on taxable income over $500,000 up to $1,000,000--a percentage increase of 32.26% over current policy of 9.3%.
Imposes a 13.3% tax rate on taxable income over $1,000,000--a percentage increase of 29.13% over current "millionaires tax" policy of 10.3%.
If this proposition is passed in November, 2012, the income tax will apply retroactively to all income earned or received since the first of the year (1 January, 2012)



Stupid ****ers, since when is making 250K a year considered being a millionaire?   :hammer:
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 07, 2012, 01:29:10 PM
Didn't the Kalicommies also agree to a sales tax increase?

Yep 7.25% to 7.5% overall increase about a 3.5% increase. However, the really scary part is now the donks have a super majority and can raise taxes anytime they want. That is what will be the final nail i the coffin for kali.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: J P Sousa on November 07, 2012, 01:36:47 PM

California........Killing the Golden Goose

(http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/KIlling-the-Golden-Goose.jpeg)

.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Randy on November 07, 2012, 01:54:41 PM
No no no Hollyweird will be happy happy overjoyed to pay their fair share. After all what's a few million more in taxes to those with all that movie money?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Kyle Ricky on November 07, 2012, 01:58:10 PM
Prop 30 just means the people will leave the state in droves.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Maxiest on November 07, 2012, 02:02:32 PM
So, if you make over $250,000...

10.3% State Income Tax
33% Federal Income Tax
4.2% SS

I think that equals 47.5%

Wow... Just wow....

What are the ****ers gonna do when nobody wants to work anymore because it isn't worth it?  Who is gonna foot the bill then?  They are so short sighted.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zeus on November 07, 2012, 02:06:06 PM
Yep 7.25% to 7.5% overall increase about a 3.5% increase. However, the really scary part is now the donks have a super majority and can raise taxes anytime they want. That is what will be the final nail i the coffin for kali.


Well hell where I live in Texas we have a combined sales tax 8.25%  and income tax of 0%  ::)
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: mccainiac on November 07, 2012, 02:16:03 PM
How do I get out of this state? Seriously I need to move to the east coast where I can get a good paying job and live in a NICE place (even if it is a blue state). But my "McMansion" in central CA is significantly underwater and I feel trapped in this giant ghetto.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Chris_ on November 07, 2012, 02:16:18 PM
So, if you make over $250,000...
Don't forget the city and county taxes too. :whatever:
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Celtic Rose on November 07, 2012, 02:24:48 PM
How do I get out of this state? Seriously I need to move to the east coast where I can get a good paying job and live in a NICE place (even if it is a blue state). But my "McMansion" in central CA is significantly underwater and I feel trapped in this giant ghetto.


Don't rule out the Midwest.  The jobs may not pay as much as on the coasts, but the cost of living is much less, and the homes are just a big and beautiful, just a lot cheaper.  What type of work do you do?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: wasp69 on November 07, 2012, 02:30:08 PM

Well hell where I live in Texas we have a combined sales tax 8.25%  and income tax of 0%  ::)

An emphasis on commerce over confiscation...  What a concept!  (sarcasm aimed at the DUmmies, not you, Zeus)
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jtyangel on November 07, 2012, 02:35:19 PM
An emphasis on commerce over confiscation...  What a concept!  (sarcasm aimed at the DUmmies, not you, Zeus)

Florida used to be that way too, but if their recent voting is any indication I'm sure their days of lower/no state taxes are going to be coming to a close before long.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Gina on November 07, 2012, 02:35:36 PM
How do I get out of this state? Seriously I need to move to the east coast where I can get a good paying job and live in a NICE place (even if it is a blue state). But my "McMansion" in central CA is significantly underwater and I feel trapped in this giant ghetto.


Well you could do what the assholes here do. Walk away from it and rent then get approved again in 3 years.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: zeitgeist on November 07, 2012, 03:15:01 PM
Those 1%'ers the DUmmies are all giddy about being taxed more include their beloved Hollyweird Libtard types.

Those moving vans need to bring those amoral assholes anywhere BUT my beloved Texas.  :hammer:

Bingo.  Set up road blocks if you have to.  As Sparky will attest even the best of them revert once the come to the new promised land.  Here in sad Blue Hampshire the invasion is complete.  General Stark will be found hanging in the square now the Massholes have completely taken over.  Reagan had it right, Freedom is never more than onegeneration away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on November 07, 2012, 03:16:07 PM
A tax bracket between 250K and 300K, only 50K apart?   :rotf: 

There must be some of Brown's staffers, State execs, or legislators who fall right into that range in order to come up with sausage-making like that!

And 250K in the parts of Kalifornistan where you can actually get paid that much working for someone else is only about like 125K in most of flyover country.   
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Delmar on November 07, 2012, 03:21:07 PM
The DUmmies don't seem too worried about California collapsing--old Uncle Whiskers will be right there to bail them out.  Right?  Maybe, maybe not.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: zeitgeist on November 07, 2012, 03:22:39 PM
So, if you make over $250,000...

10.3% State Income Tax
33% Federal Income Tax
4.2% SS

I think that equals 47.5%

Wow... Just wow....

What are the ****ers gonna do when nobody wants to work anymore because it isn't worth it?  Who is gonna foot the bill then?  They are so short sighted.

Not enough!!  Cher and friends need to be taxed at 99% or more.  I won't be happy until she and her ilk are all shopping at Goodwill.   :lmao: :lmao:
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Chris_ on November 07, 2012, 03:25:08 PM
I thought SS was 8.5
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zeus on November 07, 2012, 04:01:15 PM
I thought SS was 8.5

As of 01/01/2013 employee payroll tax holiday is over.


Soc Sec 6.20% , Medicare 1.45% combined 7.65% or self employed 15.30%

As with most leftist feel good policies when the Bush tax cuts expire also 01/01/2013 not only will the payroll tax holiday be over but the top tax bracket will be lowered & another bracket reinstituted on the bottom of the rung. Make it sound like you sticking it to the bad rich folk all the while crapping on the little guy.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Red October on November 07, 2012, 04:05:51 PM
If I remember, wasn't California unable to pay out tax returns to it's citizens a few years back?  Wait till Obamacare goes into full swing
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on November 07, 2012, 04:12:48 PM
How do I get out of this state? Seriously I need to move to the east coast where I can get a good paying job and live in a NICE place (even if it is a blue state). But my "McMansion" in central CA is significantly underwater and I feel trapped in this giant ghetto.

Come to Colorado. Shorter move and we could use some sane CA'ers to counter all the San Fransickos that moved to Boulder.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: thundley4 on November 07, 2012, 04:17:29 PM
Come to Colorado. Shorter move and we could use some sane CA'ers to counter all the San Fransickos that moved to Boulder.

Didn't Colorado pass legalizing recreational pot?  That is sure to make it a destination for DUmmies.   :whistling:
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Red October on November 07, 2012, 04:22:15 PM
Didn't Colorado pass legalizing recreational pot?  That is sure to make it a destination for DUmmies.   :whistling:

I thought they smoked crack?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 07, 2012, 04:38:35 PM
Quote
So, if you make over $250,000...

10.3% State Income Tax
33% Federal Income Tax
4.2% SS

I think that equals 47.5%

Wow... Just wow....

What are the ****ers gonna do when nobody wants to work anymore because it isn't worth it?  Who is gonna foot the bill then?  They are so short sighted.

Now add in 16.2% (FICA & medicare) to 106K and the new 3.8% medicare/obamatax unlimited. If you have your own business and you get right around 60%. Not to mention the new investment obamatax of 3.8% means each CD or dividend is taxed at 47.1%. Not worth investing or saving at under 1% yields or any other rates. Why would any sane person keep money in the bank?  However, I think this is a feature and not a bug.

Cloven-Piven  Mitches! It's coming. It will not be pleasant, it will last forever.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOP Congress on November 07, 2012, 04:48:55 PM
Those 1%'ers the DUmmies are all giddy about being taxed more include their beloved Hollyweird Libtard types.

Those moving vans need to bring those amoral assholes anywhere BUT my beloved Texas.  :hammer:

Actually, the only ones leaving NOW are the producers, though that may change in a few months. You should embrace every Cal emigree as they bring jobs or production. So far, we are averaging 5 businesses a week moving out of state, the majority to Texas and Arizona. Each business has a need to hire an average of 4 to 5 local people once they are relocated, typically 35-50% of their original location's force. SOURCE: Money Magazine print article.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOBUCKS on November 07, 2012, 05:06:15 PM

Stupid ****ers, since when is making 250K a year considered being a millionaire? 

Anyone who grosses 250K per year makes a million dollars during one four-year term of the magical negro.

He is, therefore, a millionaire, as is anyone who averages an annual gross income of 50K for twenty years, or 25K for forty years.

All these millionaires will feel the wrath of the democrat party.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: AprilRazz on November 07, 2012, 05:39:41 PM
Those 1%'ers the DUmmies are all giddy about being taxed more include their beloved Hollyweird Libtard types.

Quite a few of them have homes in and spend just enough time in other states to keep their official residency out of California.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ptarmigan on November 07, 2012, 06:47:12 PM
California will gut itself like a fish.

The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: RightNow on November 07, 2012, 07:09:08 PM
Prop 30 just means the people will leave the state in droves.

Yep. And they will settle in Red states like AZ and Texas and spoil the electorate to the point of kissing the idea of red states goodbye
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Kyle Ricky on November 07, 2012, 07:34:31 PM
Yep. And they will settle in Red states like AZ and Texas and spoil the electorate to the point of kissing the idea of red states goodbye

I can see that happening.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: thundley4 on November 07, 2012, 07:42:08 PM
Yep. And they will settle in Red states like AZ and Texas and spoil the electorate to the point of kissing the idea of red states goodbye

Just like the Muslims,  they infiltrate and take over.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Duke Nukum on November 07, 2012, 07:48:53 PM
Just like the Muslims,  they infiltrate and take over.
A lot of similarities between Muslims and leftists.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 07, 2012, 07:59:30 PM
Kalifornia is making millionaires every single day, government workers. If you get a job in government, you are by definition a millionaire several times over when you include the defined pension plans they get while retiring at 50-55.  We are literally printing out millionaires every single day.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zeus on November 07, 2012, 08:05:47 PM
An emphasis on commerce over confiscation...  What a concept!  (sarcasm aimed at the DUmmies, not you, Zeus)

Yeppers about half the jobs created in the country during the Barack Milhous recession have been in Texas.

Weathers good too. Couple days ago our low temp for the day was 65o higher than the high temp of the day up north where most my relatives live.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOBUCKS on November 07, 2012, 08:56:16 PM
Yep. And they will settle in Red states like AZ and Texas and spoil the electorate to the point of kissing the idea of red states goodbye

I don't worry about immigrants from California.

The states I'm worried about are Sonora and Chihuahua.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ptarmigan on November 07, 2012, 08:59:21 PM
A lot of similarities between Muslims and leftists.

Indeed. Same thing.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOP Congress on November 08, 2012, 12:33:37 AM
Not enough!!  Cher and friends need to be taxed at 99% or more.  I won't be happy until she and her ilk are all shopping at Goodwill.   :lmao: :lmao:

You mean she isn't already? Her clothes are worse than in her hippy days.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Duke Nukum on November 08, 2012, 12:38:44 AM
Not enough!!  Cher and friends need to be taxed at 99% or more.  I won't be happy until she and her ilk are all shopping at Goodwill.   :lmao: :lmao:
I always thought that members of Congress should be taxed at 200% being that most of them could easily make it up in graft and corruption. And then we would see who the honest ones were.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Revolution on November 08, 2012, 01:30:52 AM

Ya, and I don't think any of the Libtards actually read the damn thing.


From Wiki:



Stupid ****ers, since when is making 250K a year considered being a millionaire?   :hammer:

HAHAHA! And the way they spend it on all these social programs, and crap, a lot of bleeding heart citizens aren't going to be feeling much in their pockets except lint when the "man" comes to collect from Jan. 1st of this year. As you said "Stupid ****ers." I wonder how many of them will feel when they can't make their apartment/house payment when it comes due, because they spent all their money on social programs, purity beads, and marijuana...

Serves them all right.

Now I kinda wanna watch Operation Repot. :-)
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 08, 2012, 10:26:46 AM
I don't worry about immigrants from California.

The states I'm worried about are Sonora and Chihuahua.

The three are becoming indistinguishable except Sonora and Chihuahua have lower unemployment, no budget deficits, and are becoming prosperous.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zathras on November 08, 2012, 10:28:59 AM
Didn't the Kalicommies also agree to a sales tax increase?

It's part of the same proposition that has the tax increase for high wage earners.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ballygrl on November 08, 2012, 11:00:07 AM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Zeus on November 08, 2012, 02:46:21 PM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?

Libs aren't totally adverse to tax breaks/abatements and the such. They just reserve the right to pick winners and losers.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Dori on November 08, 2012, 02:51:56 PM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?

I'm not familiar with their tax breaks, but Hollywood goes out of state and out of country because of what it costs them to shoot a film.  Maybe the breaks are so they will stay here and film????????
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: jukin on November 08, 2012, 04:32:26 PM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?

I'll tell you why, straight from the LA times. The film industry is hemorrhaging jobs in kalifornia to lower tax locales. In all other cases job losses have nothing to do with taxes and regulations except in the film industry where they do.

See also, taxes on cigarettes and energy lessen demand for cigarettes and energy but taxes on investment income will increase investing.

Also see leftism is a mental disease and 1+1=POTATO.

Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Skul on November 08, 2012, 04:33:56 PM
Come to Colorado. Shorter move and we could use some sane CA'ers to counter all the San Fransickos that moved to Boulder.
Lived in that area for almost 40 years before coming to Texas, 12 of them ago.
The influx of Kalifornicans ruined the state for me.
Cost of living played skyrocket, and the quality of life played brick.
Kids want me to move back in a year when I retire. Not gonna do it.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOBUCKS on November 08, 2012, 07:25:57 PM
Libs aren't totally adverse to tax breaks/abatements and the such.
That's true. Otherwise, wind power, solar power, and these goofy electric cars would not exist.

And they will all cease to exist the moment the handouts stop.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ballygrl on November 08, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
I'm not familiar with their tax breaks, but Hollywood goes out of state and out of country because of what it costs them to shoot a film.  Maybe the breaks are so they will stay here and film????????

Yes, but it's hypocritical of them to do that, they keep saying they want to pay more taxes so why do they ask for tax breaks and get them?
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ballygrl on November 08, 2012, 09:45:47 PM
I'll tell you why, straight from the LA times. The film industry is hemorrhaging jobs in kalifornia to lower tax locales. In all other cases job losses have nothing to do with taxes and regulations except in the film industry where they do.

See also, taxes on cigarettes and energy lessen demand for cigarettes and energy but taxes on investment income will increase investing.

Also see leftism is a mental disease and 1+1=POTATO.

Hollywood is being hypocritical then, and they need to be called out on it.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: GOBUCKS on November 08, 2012, 09:48:44 PM
I'll tell you why, straight from the LA times. The film industry is hemorrhaging jobs in kalifornia to lower tax locales. In all other cases job losses have nothing to do with taxes and regulations except in the film industry where they do.
The porn industry says it's leaving because of the new L.A. County rubber law.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: zeitgeist on November 09, 2012, 02:41:42 PM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?

Why yes, yes they should.   I posted an article on my FB about that and may have even mentioned or posted  it here.  The jist of it was that the Republcans should embrace a return of the  Enterainment tax.    Not really a new tax just reinstate an old one and drop all Hollywierd tax credits plus demand all films use generally accepted accountng procedures (not the bs they use now).   The premise was that who in Hollywood would throw the first stone. A win / win.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Ptarmigan on November 09, 2012, 02:44:28 PM
Just curious, how come Hollywood gets all these tax breaks? I know they request tax breaks to keep filming in California, but why do they even ask for tax breaks? and why do they get them? shouldn't they pay their fair share?

Funny thing is Hollywood is not the biggest money maker for California.
Title: Re: California fires the first round at the 1-percenters
Post by: Dori on November 09, 2012, 02:58:36 PM
Yes, but it's hypocritical of them to do that, they keep saying they want to pay more taxes so why do they ask for tax breaks and get them?

Downtown L.A. they shoot commercials and movie scenes.  The city likes when they do that and even supplies extra police.  It makes the rest of us mad because of traffic and parking problems we already have to begin with.