The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on January 22, 2012, 08:07:25 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10169231
Oh my.
alp227 (12,424 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
As Price of Oil Soars, Users Shiver and Cross Their Fingers
When David Harris built his 2,000-square-foot hilltop home nine years ago, he wanted to put in natural gas, but the utility wouldn’t run a line to his house. Like many people here, he was stuck using heating oil.
Mr. Harris added a wood stove to help cut costs and now uses only about one-third of the oil the house would otherwise need. But that did not stop a deliveryman for Crowley Fuel from handing him a $471.21 bill earlier this month for a refill that should get him to April.
“You just cross your fingers and hope that it doesn’t get too much worse,†Mr. Harris said.
Actually, it probably will — for him and the residents of the roughly eight million other American homes that use heating oil, mostly in a band from Maine to Pennsylvania.
full: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/heating-oil-costs-surge-and-many-in-northeast-cant-switch.html?pagewanted=all
A lonely campfire; no primitive's been to it.
You know, when I lived in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, I used to stop whatever I was doing, and stare at trucks making home deliveries of heating oil. The phenomenon, never seen in Nebraska, fascinated me.
While watching the action, I felt as if I were being yanked back to Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard Taft, barbershop quartets, the Gay Nineties, bicycles built for two, the battleship Maine, parasols, bandstands in town squares, trolleys, organ grinders, mustache-cups, high-button shoes, gaslights, knickerbockers, Sweet Adeline and somesuch. All it needed was for the Music Man and the town librarian to show up.
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your comment piqued my interest
whats a parasol, gay ninety, mustache-cup and high button shoe. i could nadin them but a lesson from franksolich beats any search engine.
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your comment piqued my interest
whats a parasol, gay ninety, mustache-cup and high button shoe. i could nadin them but a lesson from franksolich beats any search engine.
Styles circa 1890-1910.
It was always so quaint, so turn-of-the-centuryish, home delivery of heating oil. At least to me.
One almost expected to see a horse-drawn wagon with the stuff, rather than a delivery truck.
I however, never did find out if heating oil was used strictly in a furnace, or if it was used in stoves too.
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ahh, pre-wilson type stuff
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That doesn't seem too horrible for part of January, February, March and into April. As I recall, the last time I heard the amount of propane my brother uses in a month, it was close to $300. He keeps his house cold, and has a wood stove downstairs.
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Wanting higher energy prices yet crying about the real consequences of higher energy prices is a prime example of a mental disorder.
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Wanting higher energy prices yet crying about the real consequences of higher energy prices is a prime example of a mental disorder.
The effects of modern math on DUmmies, when they think 2+2 should =3 but it actually ='s 5 or more. You know, we have to raise the cost of energy so that the price of it will come down and the poor can use their fair share of it.
My head hurts after typing that.
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We have heating oil in this house. It warms the house in minutes from freezing cold. The downside is that it leaves a small layer of soot on everything at the end of winter and it smells kinda funky sometimes. My last delivery was close to $800 and hopefully it lasts until April.
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We have heating oil in this house. It warms the house in minutes from freezing cold. The downside is that it leaves a small layer of soot on everything at the end of winter and it smells kinda funky sometimes. My last delivery was close to $800 and hopefully it lasts until April.
That shouldn't be happening. Get your firebox'flue checked for cracks/leaks and/or rust and by all means, buy a carbonmonoxide detector.
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Styles circa 1890-1910.
It was always so quaint, so turn-of-the-centuryish, home delivery of heating oil. At least to me.
One almost expected to see a horse-drawn wagon with the stuff, rather than a delivery truck.
I however, never did find out if heating oil was used strictly in a furnace, or if it was used in stoves too.
Dear Frank, as a kid I became use to the smell of Karoscene, in homes. It fueled the stove, and heated the place, also kept the lamps burning.
One grandparent had a modern home, oil furnace with radiators that had air in them and clanked as they heated up.
Early morning the sound of comfort and the coffee smell of brewing in the old type percolators ----something we do not use any more, spelled security for me.
Other grandparent lived in an old farm house, early morning was the chunk a chunk of the coals being shaken down, up stairs had big grates in the floor so the heat would rise, frost on the windows and the hot brick wrapped in a towel at the foot of the bed, stone cold. Grandma so happy and proud of her new electric range cooking bacon and eggs-------The smells on a cold winter morning at both places, the old and the new, safety and love.
Karoscene, the smell brings me back to the summer camps they both had before the electric poles were brought in.
The lamp shades, glass that had to be washed every week, the wick that needed cutting. I have no memory of how the Karoscene was brought to either camp but I do remember the Ice man arriving with Hugh chunks of ice held on big metal prongs for the Ice boxes.
Then the family that spent all their money on a right good funeral, Karoscene heater in the livingroom, big old cast iron wood stove in the kitchen that put out heat too hot to stand by it for minutes at a time. Front of one was too hot while the back side froze.
Miserable life I thought, out house in the back and a bright red water pump in the kitchen, more like a summer camp then a year round home.
Imagine my surprise to find about 20 years ago these Kerosene room heaters on the market. Smack dab in the middle of a room with kids and pets running about them. OH Crap, this is a disaster I thought, but somehow most survived with no problem. A few row houses were burned down, perhaps a few hundred died, but people still buy them.
Mrs. O' Leary's lamp that set off the great Chicago fire was Karoscene, or Whale oil. Blame it on the Irish.
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When David Harris built his 2,000-square-foot hilltop home nine years ago, he wanted to put in natural gas, but the utility wouldn’t run a line to his house. Like many people here, he was stuck using heating oil.
I doubt that. They'll put in anything you want, if you're willing to pay for it. I now know why we didn't have flaming left-wing lunatics in the 1800's. They'd have all died out.
BTW Vesta, it's "Kerosene", not "Karoscene". How you got it right and so badly wrong in the same post is beyond me.
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I doubt that. They'll put in anything you want, if you're willing to pay for it. I now know why we didn't have flaming left-wing lunatics in the 1800's. They'd have all died out.
BTW Vesta, it's "Kerosene", not "Karoscene". How you got it right and so badly wrong in the same post is beyond me.
Hum, maybe she means the Kayro Scene? Would that be like the Wesson Parties of the sixties? Come on Vesta, tell, did you get to messin in the Wesson. I suspect one lathering up with Kayro at a Wesson party would be quite a novelty. But this is a family show so I won't go into details on either.
On the stove front the local rag ran an article about folk turning back to wood. It was interesting because they also had a note about a pipeline abolitionist coming to town to speak. Both peaked my curiosity as I was getting the pellet stove cleaned and loaded for the day.
When I have a few minutes I will have to detail my history of heating devices throughout the course of my life. I grew up on a farm which relied exclusively on horses to plow, plant, and log ( boards and fire wood). Trust me when they say wood heats three times, it is true. I have woken up many a morning to find the water frozen in the sink after the fire has gone out. Cord wood is a hard, dangerous, dirty way to heat. The pellet stove is incredible and far less dirty but you still need to be vigilant.
Someone should nadine when 'fuel oil' became popular. I still remember lots of old boilers having coal and wood grates here in the Northeast. Gas, which I would prefer not to have, is relatively new as well ( infrastructure thing). The gas line stops about a quarter of a mile from my house and I am fine with that. Propane tanks ( unless buried ) are ugly although probably safer than piped in gas (just my opinion from seeing what happens when gas pipes leak in city blocks).
Off I go to visit the stove shop, just down the road from Vesta's IINM. :lmao:
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Hum, maybe she means the Kayro Scene? Would that be like the Wesson Parties of the sixties? Come on Vesta, tell, did you get to messin in the Wesson. I suspect one lathering up with Kayro at a Wesson party would be quite a novelty. But this is a family show so I won't go into details on either.
Different strokes for different folks. :rotf:
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Trust me when they say wood heats three times, it is true. I have woken up many a morning to find the water frozen in the sink after the fire has gone out. Cord wood is a hard, dangerous, dirty way to heat. The pellet stove is incredible and far less dirty but you still need to be vigilant.
I've never heard the expression of wood heating 3 times. Please elaborate.
Admittedly I was raised in cities but I'm trying to make a go of country living (as my contempt for cities grows). I've got 6 acres of pine forest and am in desperate need of advice on how to heat a 3700 sq ft hutch...or at least a fair portion of it.
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I've never heard the expression of wood heating 3 times. Please elaborate.
Admittedly I was raised in cities but I'm trying to make a go of country living (as my contempt for cities grows). I've got 6 acres of pine forest and am in desperate need of advice on how to heat a 3700 sq ft hutch...or at least a fair portion of it.
Don't use pine trees. You'll be scrubbing your ass off until the end of time. I've never heard of the wood heating 3 times either and my parents burn wood in their fireplace every winter.
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I've never heard the expression of wood heating 3 times. Please elaborate.
/quote]
It's an old saying that it warms you three times. Once when you cut it, once when you split it, and once when you burn it.
You don't want to heat with pine.
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We have heating oil in this house. It warms the house in minutes from freezing cold. The downside is that it leaves a small layer of soot on everything at the end of winter and it smells kinda funky sometimes. My last delivery was close to $800 and hopefully it lasts until April.
You urgently need to have your system inspected.
Somewhere in the firebox/heat exchanger/flue there's a leak.
Not to be an alarmist, but that could kill everyone in the house.
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We have oil, and it is very expensive this year. Wood stove is just not an option with my tots. Sigh.
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Don't use pine trees. You'll be scrubbing your ass off until the end of time. I've never heard of the wood heating 3 times either and my parents burn wood in their fireplace every winter.
I believe he refers to 1. chopping it 2. stacking it and 3. burning it.
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Don't use pine trees. You'll be scrubbing your ass off until the end of time. I've never heard of the wood heating 3 times either and my parents burn wood in their fireplace every winter.
Now that 67 Rover explains it, it makes sense. But, pine's not good for heating, unless you're starting a fire (and only for fire-starting).
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Now that 67 Rover explains it, it makes sense. But, pine's not good for heating, unless you're starting a fire (and only for fire-starting).
The best fire starters I have found are in the link below, when I am in my N.H. cabin the Jotul F600 is the preferred source of heat. I also have a 500 gallon Propane tank but that is usually for the stove, dryer, and hot water heater when I am there and for forced hot air to heat when I am not there.
http://www.supercedar.com/
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I have detectors upstairs and downstairs. The furnace is about 30 years old and maybe older. I just need a new one.
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It's an old saying that it warms you three times. Once when you cut it, once when you split it, and once when you burn it.
You are forgetting moving the rounds, moving the split wood to pile, and moving from pile to fireplace.
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I've never heard the expression of wood heating 3 times. Please elaborate.
/quote]
It's an old saying that it warms you three times. Once when you cut it, once when you split it, and once when you burn it.
You don't want to heat with pine.
Bingo on the three times. I agree that pine is not a good wood to heat with ( unless you have nothing else) because it builds up cresote like the dickens unless you burn it wide open. And if you burn wide open it is inefficient as all get out.
I really wonder what combination of keys I just hit on this laptop to delete completed ¶'s of text. Darn I am not retyping it.
I had to go to two different stove shops to find what I wanted so I have essentially been on the road most of the day. I was surprised at the amount of snow inland.
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I have lived in propane heated houses, wood heated houses, and natural gas heated houses. I LOVE natural gas!! But I really like the cost of wood heat, so am looking forward to supplementing our furnace with wood after we move.
I don't know if they make ventless stoves for heating oil, but think I would look into one. Anything that is 99% efficient is worth a look...
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I've never heard the expression of wood heating 3 times. Please elaborate.
Admittedly I was raised in cities but I'm trying to make a go of country living (as my contempt for cities grows). I've got 6 acres of pine forest and am in desperate need of advice on how to heat a 3700 sq ft hutch...or at least a fair portion of it.
I heard wood warms one twice, but I may not have caught the whole thing.
Chopping it warms one, and burning it warms one again.
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BTW Vesta, it's "Kerosene", not "Karoscene". How you got it right and so badly wrong in the same post is beyond me.
One of Vesta's distant ancestors?
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHx5HYh7zls[/youtube]
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When David Harris built his 2,000-square-foot hilltop home nine years ago, he wanted to put in natural gas, but the utility wouldn’t run a line to his house.
That is a lie. If there is a natural gas pipeline near his home, he would have had access to natural gas.
We don't have gas here because the developer made deals with the electric company and the town. No access, none coming. And I hate it.
We also have a fireplace, wood burning. In our other house, my husband converted the wood fireplace to natural gas. It's pretty to look at but not efficient at all. You need a fan installed to get real heat.
So far this winter, we've burned one cord of wood at $100. Bought it, stacked it on the rack on the patio. Easy to get. Easy to unload.
My electric bill was a bit high this month but my husband claims it was cold. HE was cold he meant. Between us, he just likes lighting a fire. I don't count our wood as an expense. It is nice though when it's cold and raining.
What made the wood burning better this year was a new grate. This thing puts out some heat. Very nice, built solid. We love it.
http://www.gratewalloffire.com/
Don't burn pine. It will ruin your fireplace and make a big ass mess.
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That is a lie. If there is a natural gas pipeline near his home, he would have had access to natural gas.
We don't have gas here because the developer made deals with the electric company and the town. No access, none coming. And I hate it.
You can be near a pipeline and not have gas. The gas company will be happy to sell it to you, but if you're not close to any other potential customers, you'll have to pay for the line from the main to your house, which could be a ton of money in some areas. I was in that situation for a number of years, on a cul de sac several hundred feet from the gas line, but I just couldn't see paying the charge for running a line to my house. Oil was not very expensive at all, and a furnace conversion made no sense considering the economics at the time. Electric hot water was a little expensive, but not enough to pay for running a line. Finally a couple of other homes were built near enough to me, and we split the cost of running a line from the main. I did it to enhance property value, but never tapped in myself. I never had any complaint about oil heat.
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We're in the South so I'm thinking maybe they do things a bit different up North ? Over here if it's already there in place on the pipeline, you can get it. No outlandish costs.
The people in the front of the golf course and main road to the hood here have natural gas but nothing was piped into our part. I had that down as one of my wants before moving here. Didn't happen.
It's much cheaper than electric plus I so miss my gas stove.
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I have been in the heating oil business for 37 years and the only option that I know of that's not related to the price of oil is wood. That is if you don't buy it on the open market where its price also rises with the price of oil. What don't I know?
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Hum, maybe she means the Kayro Scene? Would that be like the Wesson Parties of the sixties? Come on Vesta, tell, did you get to messin in the Wesson. I suspect one lathering up with Kayro at a Wesson party would be quite a novelty. But this is a family show so I won't go into details on either.
On the stove front the local rag ran an article about folk turning back to wood. It was interesting because they also had a note about a pipeline abolitionist coming to town to speak. Both peaked my curiosity as I was getting the pellet stove cleaned and loaded for the day.
When I have a few minutes I will have to detail my history of heating devices throughout the course of my life. I grew up on a farm which relied exclusively on horses to plow, plant, and log ( boards and fire wood). Trust me when they say wood heats three times, it is true. I have woken up many a morning to find the water frozen in the sink after the fire has gone out. Cord wood is a hard, dangerous, dirty way to heat. The pellet stove is incredible and far less dirty but you still need to be vigilant.
Someone should nadine when 'fuel oil' became popular. I still remember lots of old boilers having coal and wood grates here in the Northeast. Gas, which I would prefer not to have, is relatively new as well ( infrastructure thing). The gas line stops about a quarter of a mile from my house and I am fine with that. Propane tanks ( unless buried ) are ugly although probably safer than piped in gas (just my opinion from seeing what happens when gas pipes leak in city blocks).
Off I go to visit the stove shop, just down the road from Vesta's IINM. :lmao:
#&$*@ :censored: :censored:
Another darn thing I missed out on by marrying too young and having baby's. I do remember HEARING about Jello party's but unfortunately could not get a babysitter.
About your pellet stove, didn't one blow up on a women in the area a few weeks ago ? I wonder what went wrong with the devise.
Years ago in the parking lot at the plant some friend of a worker drove in with a device on a flat bed that was made in Canada. This was a outside wood burner that was too good to be true. I went on line and the information about this machine was interesting, the claims that it could heat a 2,000 SF home and outdoor pool year round on 3 cords of wood in the coldest climate south of the North Pole was an interesting thought. IIRC,
We do have a fire place that can burn wood or propane, we stick to the fake logs that claim to have no creosote buildup.
Zeit, I am interested in the pellet stoves, as you have one can you give us the up and down side to owning one?
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#&$*@ :censored: :censored:
Another darn thing I missed out on by marrying too young and having baby's. I do remember HEARING about Jello party's but unfortunately could not get a babysitter.
About your pellet stove, didn't one blow up on a women in the area a few weeks ago ? I wonder what went wrong with the devise.
Years ago in the parking lot at the plant some friend of a worker drove in with a device on a flat bed that was made in Canada. This was a outside wood burner that was too good to be true. I went on line and the information about this machine was interesting, the claims that it could heat a 2,000 SF home and outdoor pool year round on 3 cords of wood in the coldest climate south of the North Pole was an interesting thought. IIRC,
We do have a fire place that can burn wood or propane, we stick to the fake logs that claim to have no creosote buildup.
Zeit, I am interested in the pellet stoves, as you have one can you give us the up and down side to owning one?
What you saw on the truck was probably a wood-burning, hot water furnace. It goes outside your house, the hot water is piped inside and tied in with a forced air heating system.
Upside, all the mess is outside the house, (along with the fire), some can burn coal as well as wood. Some can be purchased with gas or oil backup in case your wood fire goes out, or you're away for a while. Most can be tied into your hot water heater to heat that as well.
Downside, expensive to install, requires constant maintenance (water level, clean the firebox and flue), and if you live in an area prone to electrical outages, you're SOL if the lights go off (no power to run the pumps or fans).
And if your luck runs like mine does, something, anything, important will fail on the COLDEST day of the year, on a weekend, after the hardware store has closed!
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What you saw on the truck was probably a wood-burning, hot water furnace. It goes outside your house, the hot water is piped inside and tied in with a forced air heating system.
Upside, all the mess is outside the house, (along with the fire), some can burn coal as well as wood. Some can be purchased with gas or oil backup in case your wood fire goes out, or you're away for a while. Most can be tied into your hot water heater to heat that as well.
Downside, expensive to install, requires constant maintenance (water level, clean the firebox and flue), and if you live in an area prone to electrical outages, you're SOL if the lights go off (no power to run the pumps or fans).
And if your luck runs like mine does, something, anything, important will fail on the COLDEST day of the year, on a weekend, after the hardware store has closed!
DD I would say you are correct. We do have one of those in the 'hood. Another down side is stack height. While I wouldn't swear to it, I think the city here is looking at an ordinance regulating the height of those particular devices. I do know the one down the road smokes excessively when it starts up on wood laying down a low lying cloud in its immediate vicinity on some days .
Vesta: Pellet stoves are the cats pajamas in wood heating devices but require regular maintenance. As with anything you get what you pay for. I have a fireplace insert make by Quadra Fire which I purchased used at the nursery in No Hampton although I am not sure if they carry that brand any longer. The place I use now is in Hampton Falls. What I was looking for yesterday was touch up paint. My unit had couple chips on it and I wanted the factory paint. I ended up going to Sanford (where I got the paint I wanted but had to pay sales tax ).
Like any wood burning device (or any fuel burning device for that matter ) pellet stoves need to be cleaned regularly depending on usage. In my case (I tend to be a bit anal) I clean the entire fire chamber after one to two bags of pellets. I have a company come in and do the chimney ( stainless steel pipe through the original chimney damper and liner actually) and other blower parts yearly. So far I have had to replace a few electronic components called snap disks ( they monitor the heat at various places on the stove) and a computer control box. Parts are not cheap but then as I said you get what you pay for. Just think of the control box as similar to one used on automobiles.
Pellets can vary in quality and ash content. More ash means more frequent cleaning. I generally run the pellet stove during the day and early evening then set the thermostat (yes thermostat) down to a few degrees below what the furnace is set to come on at. If the furnace fails to come on (and that has been known to happen, after all it is a mechanical device prone to failure), the pellet stove will come on to keep the house warm. This house is pretty tight and the furnace is run on a computerized thermostat which sets back at night so it only comes on infrequently during most nights. My hot water is off the furnace on a separate zone and SuperStor unit. I have a steam boiler and radiators which as you know are great for heating gloves, mittens, and bath towels. The furnace comes up in time to warm the house when we get up then sets back during the day when I generally run the pellet stove.
Using the pellet stove in combination with the oil allows me to save quite a bit on oil costs. I do not freeze at night when I go to bed. Even though there is a floor grate to the second floor the bed room can get quite cool when just running the pellet stove. But then that is where pajamas and down quilts and a bed warming beagle come in. I also have a small electric heater if I want to take the chill off for example to read in bed.
Pellet and wood prices tend to vary with oil and gas in this economy. Steam is probably the best heat I have ever had and over the last sixty plus years I have had: Wood only, kerosene fired hot air, (mobile home), oil fired hot air (house), all electric, solar with electric back up, oil fired hot water, and oil fired steam. Hot air is just that, hot air. It has always been my least favorite form of heat.
One nice thing about the pellet stove insert, it changed the fireplace from a heat source loss to a heat source gain. The biggest rap beyond the work involved would have to be the noise from the blower system but I find that a small price to pay for what I am getting. It generally takes me fifteen to twenty minutes with my "stove" vacuum to do a complete cleaning of my stove but it is an insert so it may take a bit more time, and as I said, I am a bit anal about it.
eta: Oh yes, and when I was very young I lived in Wentworth Acres which, I believe, used coal. I seem to remember the coal truck coming. But darn if I can remember much more than that. Must be the lead tooth paste tubes have finally caused memory loss. :yawn:
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BS for quoting vesta at length.
:rulez:
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You can be near a pipeline and not have gas. The gas company will be happy to sell it to you, but if you're not close to any other potential customers, you'll have to pay for the line from the main to your house, which could be a ton of money in some areas. I was in that situation for a number of years, on a cul de sac several hundred feet from the gas line, but I just couldn't see paying the charge for running a line to my house. Oil was not very expensive at all, and a furnace conversion made no sense considering the economics at the time. Electric hot water was a little expensive, but not enough to pay for running a line. Finally a couple of other homes were built near enough to me, and we split the cost of running a line from the main. I did it to enhance property value, but never tapped in myself. I never had any complaint about oil heat.
I agree. It's probably more like the builder didn't want to pay for the lines to the houses.
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Vesta, one thing I forgot to mention about the pellet stove alternative. Unlike the old wood stove it does not work when the power goes off. If you need a source of heat without power you choices are limited to a traditional wood stove or gas which will work without power. (Natural of bottled). In my case I liked the look of the pellet insert in the fireplace (rather than freestanding) and already had a complete Gentran setup for running the furnace should the power go down for an extended period of time. My steam system requires far less wattage to run than my pellet stove which the on board electricians can more adequately explain than can I. It is a consideration which should not be overlooked when choosing an alternative heat source.
I have no idea how a pellet stove could 'explode' but I suppose anything is possible. They can 'burn back' into the pellet storage if not properly maintained.
This is what my insert looks like in the ads:
(http://www.quadrafire.com/~/media/Images/Product%20Images/Quadrafire%20Product%20Images/Inserts/Castile/QDF_pelletINS_Castile_Mahogany_1400x1050.ashx?w=839&h=429&bc=black)
I actually have a more traditional brick fireplace and mantle which is not a problem but note that height restrictions can also apply. When in doubt best to check those type issues rather than buy a unit from a big box store with no knowledgeable heating technician. That is a sure way to unexpected consequences ( house fire ). :fuelfire:
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Thank you, thank you, sorry you got Bitch Slapped, your information may help others decide on a back up heating system.
BTW, Wentworth Acres became Sea Crest didn't it and is now a vary fancy slum. Allot of history to that place, not that long ago before they tore the whole place down they still had the burned out hulks of the homes the jet crashed into rather then hit the LPG tanks down the road.