The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: FreeBorn on September 19, 2011, 01:43:39 AM
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(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9w1ToPQnr2-0SmxwR6jo5Pq72JvIGCsUNlK912rr0DAmaLkuE)
San Juan Capistrano, CA – A city in Southern California is demanding that a small home Bible study group stop meeting unless they obtain a cost-prohibitive permit.
The homeowners, Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, were fined $300 for holding the Bible study.
Mr. Fromm appealed the ruling to the City of San Juan Capistrano, which was founded as a mission in the late 1700s and is home to California’s oldest building still in use, a chapel where Father Junipero Serra celebrated mass. Fromm was told by a hearing officer that regular gatherings of more than three people require a conditional use permit. Officials also stated that further religious gatherings in the home would be subject to a $500 fine per meeting. The City eventually rejected the appeal.
http://thereaganwing.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/california-town-government-in-full-assault-on-first-amendment/
More here~
http://www.thecapistranodispatch.com/view/full_story/15491252/article-Capistrano-Couple-in-Legal-Battle-for-Hosting-Bible-Study-in-Home?instance=commented
I don't recognize my country anymore. I am speechless.
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I don't recognize my country anymore.
You're a bit late to the party. This is how they do it.
You have the absolute constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear arms-- but first you have to get a permit. One permit per jurisdiction, because permits aren't recognized uniformly.
Tobacco is a perfectly legal substance-- but God help you if you actually try to light up anywhere-- including, in some places, inside your own home.
Free speech zones-- the Constitution declares the entire country a "free speech zone".
(Permits to assemble I can see-- as long as their sole purpose is to prevent scheduling conflicts. On the other hand, spontaneous peaceful assemblies must pass unmolested IMHO.)
I'm only surprised it took this long for religious gatherings without government sanction.
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Bureaucrats have as much a problem understanding "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise thereof", as they do "The right of the people to keep and bear ares, shall not be infringed".
:banghead:
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They should do like the muslims in France do...hold it in the middle of the street.
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This is what happens when you allow the nose of the camel into the tent. You can never compromise with leftwingers, EVER. You just can't.
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This is what happens when you allow the nose of the camel into the tent. You can never compromise with leftwingers, EVER. You just can't.
Yep. An inch now, an inch later and soon they have the mile they wanted.
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And this behind the Orange Curtain, no less.
Now this being said, would I like 20-plus (as many as 50, according to the story) coming into your neighbor's house every Sunday morning? I think of the size of the lot I lived on in my house in CA and I'd be concerned if more than 5 people tried to park on our street.
Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.
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And this behind the Orange Curtain, no less.
Now this being said, would I like 20-plus (as many as 50, according to the story) coming into your neighbor's house every Sunday morning? I think of the size of the lot I lived on in my house in CA and I'd be concerned if more than 5 people tried to park on our street.
Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.
But in the neighborhood of large homes on even larger lots—the Fromms live in a 4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn—Stephanie Fromm said parking was never a problem. Neither was noise, she said.
“There’s no singing or music,†she said
Read more: The Capistrano Dispatch - Capistrano Couple in Legal Battle for Hosting Bible Study in Home
It doesn't seem to be an issue with room...it sounds more like 1 person in the neighborhood has some issue with it and wants to limit the Fromm's use of their private property.
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It doesn't seem to be an issue with room...it sounds more like 1 person in the neighborhood has some issue with it and wants to limit the Fromm's use of their private property.
I don't think we know all there is to know about this, but the neighbors are probably leftist wackos, considering the location of San Juan Capistrano.
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I don't think we know all there is to know about this, but the neighbors are probably leftist wackos, considering the location of San Juan Capistrano.
Actually, SJC is pretty upscale for OC, which is pretty conservative by virtually any standard. More likely than not it's one neighbor who didn't want to confront the Fromm's and instead went straight to the city. I don't agree with that method, and code enforcement is pretty heavy-handed, but even living on large properties doesn't give one carte blanche to piss off your neighbors. Besides, we're not talking friggin ranches here, we're talking horse properties of maybe a couple of acres tops.
ETA: Looked at Google Maps. They're smaller than that. Maybe 1/2 acre lots, tops.
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Tweeted this to Michelle Malkin and Tammy Bruce, let's see what comes of it, oh I'll e-mail it to Rush.
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Thanks Sparks. I thought it might be less liberal than the coastal areas (where would it NOT be less liberal than that?). But as we know, it takes only one complaint nowadays to get new laws passed so the majority of the people won't get "offended," whether the "offense" is real or not.
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Get the feeling there's a bit more to the complaint against the Fromm's.
Yeah, I have the same impression. Perhaps something like 20 extra cars and big-ass trucks showing up in a six-house cul-de-sac every week and the neighbors getting fed up with it.
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These people are way out of control.
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Actually, SJC is pretty upscale for OC, which is pretty conservative by virtually any standard. More likely than not it's one neighbor who didn't want to confront the Fromm's and instead went straight to the city. I don't agree with that method, and code enforcement is pretty heavy-handed, but even living on large properties doesn't give one carte blanche to piss off your neighbors. Besides, we're not talking friggin ranches here, we're talking horse properties of maybe a couple of acres tops.
ETA: Looked at Google Maps. They're smaller than that. Maybe 1/2 acre lots, tops.
4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre?? Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot.
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4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre?? Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot.
Do a Google Maps on the lots. They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense. Not by a longshot. DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side. Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.
Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.
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Do a Google Maps on the lots. They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense. Not by a longshot. DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side. Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.
Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.
If they're keeping a horse on less than 3 or 4 acres of good pasture, then there ain't blade of grass on it anywhere.
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If they're keeping a horse on less than 3 or 4 acres of good pasture, then there ain't blade of grass on it anywhere.
No, what they typically do is own a horse and board it nearby. Now I recognize the area. Within spitting distance of the San Diego Fwy off J-Serra Road.
Most of the houses there are overbuilt McMansions: 4-5 bedrooms, 6 bathrooms, 5000 sq. ft. on 1/3-1/2 acre lots, and go for around $1.5 million, give or take.
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I was just wondering what those folks pay for a bale of hay in the lush Eden of southern Kalifornica.
Yikes! Just looked it up. Almost three times what it goes for here in Western New York. That is insane. Must be that it is being trucked in from some other region that can actually grow hay.
http://www.saturdayhaysale.com/
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I was just wondering what those folks pay for a bale of hay in the lush Eden of southern Kalifornica.
Yikes! Just looked it up. Almost three times what it goes for here in Western New York. That is insane. Must be that it is being trucked in from some other region that can actually grow hay.
http://www.saturdayhaysale.com/
I love stupid horse people. I'm not talking about those that know horses and how to keep and use a horse. I'm talking about the ones that "love" horses. They get 2 acres and start a horse ranch. They don't half feed them, they never have their feet tended to, they let them get long, matted, shaggy hair, they get skinny with the bones showing through. When you ride by the horse is usually standing there with his head down and dull, blank look on his face, If you say anything to the owner about the condition of the horse, they go all ballistic on you about "How they love their horse/horses." ...and I've gotten old enough now that I don't give a damn what people think of me anymore...so...I usually unload on them.... :rotf:...and then I feel both good and bad. Good that I told them off but still feel bad for the horse.
Lady next door to home place had 3 horses she kept in the woods for years. I'm not a great animal lover but the conditions of those horses just about made me cry every time I saw them. I finally couldn't stand it any more and reported it. Hey, I was raised up right beside her, knew her mom, dad, still friends with her brother, it was the only way I could figure to handle the situation with causing everyone problems.
Years ago, the KKK would have handled it....and gotten better results than any gov/private orgs do.
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Do a Google Maps on the lots. They aren't "horse properties" in the classic sense. Not by a longshot. DAT was right--it's a small cul-de-sac, and any horses are on a lot on the opposite side. Those house lots aren't more than 100 X 120.
Trust me, their idea of "horse property" and yours/mine is a LOT different.
30162 Branding Iron Road
Google it
That is not a 1/2 acre lot. Do street view...they can probably park 12 cars in that driveway if they move the boat. They can park cars all down the street past their house without being in front of any other driveway, and without blocking the road. If they were having Tupperware parties or selling home decoration items, the law wouldn't have touched it.
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Newsflash...I can park 12 cars in my driveway, and I don't have to move a boat. So what happens when 50 people show up?
They don't have enough room to properly care for a horse, and you know it. It's not even a 2 acre lot.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/30162-Branding-Iron-Road,-san-juan-capistrano,-ca_rb/
$1.6 million for what basically is a McMansion.
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If someone has their panties in a twist because of all the cars then they can all park at a near by grocery store and car pool to the home. No need to create a s***storm if both sides act like grown ups.
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Very true--but as I'm looking at it, one side isn't, and they're running to the media and pretending to be all butt-hurt and claiming their 1A rights are being trampled upon when they aren't exactly being the paragon of virtue they claim.
I look at it this way--if they've got enough money to pay the mortgage on a $1.5M house, they've got enough to plop down on hall rental once a month for a couple hundred bucks.
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imo. 10 people including Fromms is a bible study, anything more is a congregation!! Separate building with ample parking would be better suited, regardless of religion...
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4,700-square-foot home on a parcel that also has a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn...on 1/2 an acre?? Unless the "barn" is a 10x20 shed, the corral is the size of a decent dog kennel, and the pool is a Walmart special, there is no way it's a 1/2 acre lot.
1 acre is 43,560 sq. ft. or a little under 209' X 209'. Not big at all.
I've got almost 4, which isn't big, until you have to mow it! :rotf:
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Based on my calculation the lot appears to be about an acre. It's not unusual in subdivisions for corner lots and odd shaped lots such as those on curves and culdesacs to be larger than the other lots. The problem is that the fact that it is one of the larger lots really doesn't matter because the majority of the extra area is in the rear.
They can get about 6 cars on the driveway. Maybe 9 if they are short compact cars. They could possible get as many as 8 on the driveway IF they were to park them close enough together that the doors wouldn't open.
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Based on my calculation the lot appears to be about an acre. It's not unusual in subdivisions for corner lots and odd shaped lots such as those on curves and culdesacs to be larger than the other lots. The problem is that the fact that it is one of the larger lots really doesn't matter because the majority of the extra area is in the rear.
They can get about 6 cars on the driveway. Maybe 9 if they are short compact cars. They could possible get as many as 8 on the driveway IF they were to park them close enough together that the doors wouldn't open.
Us rednecks want to know, is there room for a couple on blocks? :-)
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Godless bastards.
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Godless bastards.
Godless or piety has nothing to do with it. Zoning laws exist for a reason. Sorry, but if 50 people show up at my next door neighbor's house every Sunday, and I don't care HOW quiet they are, they're gonna make noise, and frankly, it's a PITA to deal with on a Sunday morning.
Nobody's saying they're not allowed to worship, just not THAT many people in a relatively small residential area not meant to regularly deal with those kinds of crowds.
Again, if they've got enough money to pay a $1.5 mil mortgage, they can rent a meeting hall or other suitable facility where the neighbors won't be disturbed. It goes both ways.
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Godless or piety has nothing to do with it. Zoning laws exist for a reason. Sorry, but if 50 people show up at my next door neighbor's house every Sunday, and I don't care HOW quiet they are, they're gonna make noise, and frankly, it's a PITA to deal with on a Sunday morning.
Nobody's saying they're not allowed to worship, just not THAT many people in a relatively small residential area not meant to regularly deal with those kinds of crowds.
Again, if they've got enough money to pay a $1.5 mil mortgage, they can rent a meeting hall or other suitable facility where the neighbors won't be disturbed. It goes both ways.
Valid points. I still think they're Godless bastards, though.
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Us rednecks want to know, is there room for a couple on blocks? :-)
A good redneck can always find room for one on blocks. :-)
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Newsflash...I can park 12 cars in my driveway, and I don't have to move a boat. So what happens when 50 people show up?
They don't have enough room to properly care for a horse, and you know it. It's not even a 2 acre lot.
http://www.zillow.com/homes/30162-Branding-Iron-Road,-san-juan-capistrano,-ca_rb/
$1.6 million for what basically is a McMansion.
just looking at it on google earth
its possible they own the acreage (grass field) adjacent to thier house which probably has a different county assessor designation. it appears to have some buildings that look like stables and other outbuildings, a riding arena and even a fenced in pasture.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/sadiesinner/forums/scj.jpg)
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Nope. Try again. That is a riding facility, privately owned. Also a hell of a lot bigger than a couple of acres.
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exactly sparky,
you are ranting up above about how these guys cant be "REAL" horse owners in this neighborhood. yet, you tell us that is a privately owned riding facility right next door??
the articles state this has nothing to do about space. there is not one statement that mentions a neighbor's complaint about parking in the street, which is public property. it deals with an ordinace that requires permits for churches (synagogues, mosque etc). these guys are having bible study at their place. there is a difference. tax exemption is a big one. i doubt that mcmansion is tax free. i could have 50 people over on a sunday and while eating say "lord have mercy, these are some good ribs" and "god damn it, the vikings suck this year". is my house now a mosque? no.
fwiw: their lot is 140' wide and 350' to the pointed back yard
they have a pool, corral and a "barn". they own the property. i believe in property rights. they can do whatever the **** they want on their land so long as its legal. if they (the city) have to twist an ordinance to make it "illegal" they're despicable.
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My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood. Zoned and everything. What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?
And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners. When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop. Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.
Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something. The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays.
Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?
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My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood. Zoned and everything. What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?
And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners. When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop. Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.
Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something. The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays.
Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?
Sparky these people have to my thinking a HUGE home, To me, if their house was the size of yours or mine then yes, I would wonder where an how they could find seating for 50 people--no one said how long the readings took, an hour or 2 would be enough for most anyone to sit still.
This is their HOME, if they wish to have 50 guests at a time for any reason----- for an hour or two one day a week that is their business.
Heck some faiths call each other Sister and Brother, --No zoning laws against weekly family reunions is there ???
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On a weekly basis, it might be. Hell, try navigating around my neighborhood during the summer when every other house is doing a yard sale and all the people are parked in the friggin road. It's not just an inconvenience, it's UNSAFE.
Frankly, the whole issue is with the City Code, in this case, section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal Code, which prohibits "religious, fraternal or non-profit" organizations in residential neighborhoods without a conditional-use permit. Money-grubbing? Maybe, but it might also be about getting access for fire/police were an emergency to occur.
The city has stated that the issue was never about religious freedom, but rather about parking and street access. I would tend to agree.
If they feel the law is unjust, then work to change it, but of course, America has become such a litiguous nation that we'll sue every time we get butt-hurt. Evidently, the code enforcement folks thought there was an issue, or else they wouldn't have issued warnings and/or citations.
Sorry folks, but I've got to take the side of the city on this one. It's not a 1A issue. Of course, I wish the Fromms all the best and hope they do get the law changed or at least reduced in scope. 2000 people at your house is a bit much, but 20 is certainly reasonable.
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In another first ammendment issue related to this town, the muzzies are all up in arms because a member of the San Juan Capistrano city council named his dog muhammed and are demanding an apology...
Muslim group wants official to apologize for dog Muhammad (http://www.ocregister.com/news/reeve-318388-kramer-council.html#article-comments)
oy vey
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In another first ammendment issue related to this town, the muzzies are all up in arms because a member of the San Juan Capistrano city council named his dog muhammed and are demanding an apology...
Muslim group wants official to apologize for dog Muhammad (http://www.ocregister.com/news/reeve-318388-kramer-council.html#article-comments)
oy vey
In the words of Larry the Cable Guy, "That's funny right there, I don't care who you are..."
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My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood. Zoned and everything. What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?
And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners. When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop. Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.
Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something. The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays.
Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?
As long as they weren't blocking my driveway or making a lot of noise I wouldn't mind.
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My whole point is, it's a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood. Zoned and everything. What part of that has you so wrapped around the axle?
And you're right--they can do whatever they want on THEIR land, so long as it doesn't interfere with other property owners. When they DO affect others around them, their "rights" stop. Kinda like the whole, "your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" bit.
Sometimes, freedom means NOT doing something. The fact that they ARE making noise and creating a hassle in what is really pretty close quarters is the issue here, not that they're having bible study on Sundays.
Oh, and FWIW, would you have a problem if 50 people regularly showed up at the house next door to you?
spark,
not once in these articles is anyone crying about "noise" or "parking". there was obviously a neighbor who reported something to the city, since they admit to be "reactionary". the city's response was to shut them down using a zoning ordinance requiring permits for church's. In effect by labeling this family and their home a church. If thats not government action you have a problem with dont try to defend the city by bringing in unaffiliated circumstances (this has nothing to do with horses, noise or parking)
your level of acceptable interference is questionable. where does it say that these guys were chanting Leviticus 2:7-14 at the top of their lungs and the neighbors were "hurt". Remember, you're the one bringing up noise was the problem. i'm willing to bet the city has a disturbing the peace ordinance (all city's pretty much do). So if that was the case, why did the city not use that ordinance.... BECAUSE noise wasn't the complaint. if it truly was about parking, like you say the city is now claiming, dont they have an ordinance for that??? no because its a public street free to use by anyone. By your standards, Can i stand in my yard and hiccup? or does that violate my neighbors right of silence? Remind you, i live in a residential zone.
example to consider: when my wife had her baby shower, 31 women came. at least 20 came in separate vehicles. so lets say there were 25 vehicles. my driveway is not as big as yours. it holds 5 at most. the rest parked on the road, which is public, zoned residential. they setup the party in my garage, and "showered" in there with the overhead doors open. all gossippy and giddy, i can only assume they "made noise".
i know it wasnt against the law, but was that wrong? was it a major rights violation? al sharpton & jesse jackson gonna come march down my street?
to answer your question...
no, my neighbors in fact actually have bible group on sunday evenings in the summer. they sit around a campfire, probably singing kumbuya, no doubt. although they only have around 15 people show up. yesterday one neighbor had some sort of get together for lunch. there were 12 vehicles in the street and 3-4 in his driveway. i was a liitle upset when i wasn't invited. but no, i dont give one rats ass what my neighbors do.
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no because its a public street free to use by anyone.
Unless access becomes a problem (see above.)
Again, were it a few people gathering, I would be the first one to agree with you. But you've got to understand something, as hard as it is to admit, that we're probably not getting the whole story.
Personally, I'd be kind of curious to see the crowd on a typical Sunday morning there, just to put the whole issue to rest.
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People this countries identity is under assault. The idea that this country is a mixing pot is what is ultimately tearing it apart. If we give the minority the power to control the majority then Democracy is just another Despot.
The Constitution states Majority Rules. Minorities rights. Somehow this crap has been reversed and the Majority in this country doesn't have control or rights. :argh: