The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Chris_ on April 20, 2008, 04:22:27 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3184135
SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-20-08 03:50 PM
Original message
Is the Pope ever gonna LEAVE???
I am so tired of seeing mass, on every freaking channel..(or at least it seems that way)..
There ARE religious channels...LOTS of them..
Cover him when he speaks at the UN or visits the White House...but all this churchy stuff is creeping me OUT...
now I will don my flak jacket and try to evade the sniper-esque barrage of swingy smoke-filled thingies thrown at me
:( I'm not Catholic, but :bird: Screw you, DUmbass bigot. A little guilt there?
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I am not Catholic either but the virulent hatred on the island for anything religious and good is very revealing who their master is.
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Well, my question to the low-calorie primitive is this:
Is Barry "Goldwater" Obama ever going to leave?
He's been running around a lot longer than the Pope, and in the best interests of the low-calorie primitive's own political party, the Democrats, it's probably best that Barry "Goldwater" Obama be a man, and step down in favor of Messalina Agrippina.
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I haven't seen that Pope person on television once. Not once. What the heck or these DUmmies watching?
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I've seen him several times. But it doesn't make me shriek and throw fits like the DUmmies.
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I am not Catholic, but they need to get a grip. I like to see the Pope in person and even meet him.
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I am not Catholic, but they need to get a grip. I like to see the Pope in person and even meet him.
Me to.
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This has been an historic visit. This is only twice that a Pope has come to the US. I feel honored that he chose to come.
DUmmies, it's not like he was riding around in the Pope mobile with a super soaker squirt gun spraying holy water! ... On second thought, that wouldn't have been a bad idea!
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You know a lot of people laughed at the plot of the Left Behind Series. About how people would blindly follow the Antichrist disguised as this great political leader. They were so happy to get rid of the Christians so they could have a little "fun" that they didn't even realize what was going on. Lately it seems the scenario is so much more plausible. :(
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I am not Catholic either but the virulent hatred on the island for anything religious and good is very revealing who their master is.
I know I am going to get it, but the RCC pretty much believes in every major point of the liberal agenda: Unfettered illegal immigration, unlimited social program funding, unending welfare, unstoppable and uncontrolled reproduction.
I used to be a Catholic, but the overuse of "Mat:19:24:And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" is why I left the faith.
I worked hard. I obtained wealth. I give to charities. A LOT. Had I literally hewed to Mat:19:24, I would have never made the money I made that allowed me to give 6 children all their immunizations, saw them through school, gave them clothes and games, provided their villages with water and generally made their lives better.
A rising tide raises all boats. More people in the boat than it can handle swamps the boat -- drowning the rowers and the refugees.
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I am not Catholic either but the virulent hatred on the island for anything religious and good is very revealing who their master is.
I know I am going to get it, but the RCC pretty much believes in every major point of the liberal agenda: Unfettered illegal immigration, unlimited social program funding, unending welfare, unstoppable and uncontrolled reproduction.
I used to be a Catholic, but the overuse of "Mat:19:24:And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" is why I left the faith.
I worked hard. I obtained wealth. I give to charities. A LOT. Had I literally hewed to Mat:19:24, I would have never made the money I made that allowed me to give 6 children all their immunizations, saw them through school, gave them clothes and games, provided their villages with water and generally made their lives better.
A rising tide raises all boats. More people in the boat than it can handle swamps the boat -- drowning the rowers and the refugees.
My stepfather and one of my former stepmothers is Catholic and it's always seemed a little hypocritical to me for the Catholic church to expect their flock to give up so much while they practically wallow in opulence. But I'm not Catholic so it probably makes sense to someone who is. Jesus is one size fits all...luckily His churches don't have to be.
Cindie
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My stepfather and one of my former stepmothers is Catholic and it's always seemed a little hypocritical to me for the Catholic church to expect their flock to give up so much while they practically wallow in opulence. But I'm not Catholic so it probably makes sense to someone who is. Jesus is one size fits all...luckily His churches don't have to be.
Cindie
Yes -- Jesus wanted us to be happy and to help those who could not help themselves. He (IMHO) never wanted us to carry people who won't put an oar in the water.
Jesus understood the importance of self worth. He wanted us to lift up His children. I honestly believe He cries at how the Left abuses His principles.
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Wow, for once I agree with the DUmmies. I can't turn the damn TV on in the morning without something about the Pope on the tube. I apologize to the Catholics on board, but damn, I just do not care that he's here.
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This was the Pope's last day in the country... he left a couple hours ago. SoCalDem can pull her panties out of her ass now.
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The DUmb****s need to take a chill pill. no one is forcing them to watch the news coverage of the pope.
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The DUmb****s need to take a chill pill. no one is forcing them to watch the news coverage of the pope.
As with me.....but I'd like to watch SOME news. Dude, he's been monopolizing all of it.
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This has been an historic visit. This is only twice that a Pope has come to the US. I feel honored that he chose to come.
DUmmies, it's not like he was riding around in the Pope mobile with a super soaker squirt gun spraying holy water! ... On second thought, that wouldn't have been a bad idea!
It would work better if it was soapy water. The improvement in air quality around the protesters would be astonishing.
'Course they'd wanna charge us all with "cruel and inhumane" treatment for it.
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I am not Catholic either but the virulent hatred on the island for anything religious and good is very revealing who their master is.
I know I am going to get it, but the RCC pretty much believes in every major point of the liberal agenda: Unfettered illegal immigration, unlimited social program funding, unending welfare, unstoppable and uncontrolled reproduction.
I used to be a Catholic, but the overuse of "Mat:19:24:And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" is why I left the faith.
I worked hard. I obtained wealth. I give to charities. A LOT. Had I literally hewed to Mat:19:24, I would have never made the money I made that allowed me to give 6 children all their immunizations, saw them through school, gave them clothes and games, provided their villages with water and generally made their lives better.
A rising tide raises all boats. More people in the boat than it can handle swamps the boat -- drowning the rowers and the refugees.
Okay, some minor nit-picky points:
The Catholic Church does NOT support unfettered illegal immigration.
As a matter of public policy, the Catholic Church does not support open borders, illegal immigration or even “amnesty†in the sense of a blanket grant of legal status to the undocumented. It believes that nations have a legitimate responsibility to promote the common good by denying admission to certain migrants and by regulating the flow of all those who are seeking to enter.
The “Justice for Immigrants†campaign supports increased development in immigrant-sending countries; allowing necessary undocumented workers to earn the right to remain (permanently) through their labor, good moral character, and payment of a fine (a proportional punishment); and expansion of avenues for employment- and family-based immigration. It opposes “reform†that would turn otherwise law-abiding people into felons and would potentially criminalize acts of charity.
http://www.catholic.org/views/views_news.php?id=19737&pid=0 (http://www.catholic.org/views/views_news.php?id=19737&pid=0)
Or unending welfare:
"By intervening directly and depriving society of its
responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of
human energies and an <inordinate increase of public agencies>,
which are <dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking> than
by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by
an <enormous increase in spending>" (n.48-emphasis added).
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ATRISK.TXT
or "Unfettered and Uncontrolled Reproduction":
Hence conjugal love requires in husband and wife an awareness of their mission of "responsible parenthood," which today is rightly much insisted upon, and which also must be exactly understood. Consequently it is to be considered under different aspects which are legitimate and connected with one another.
In relation to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means the knowledge and respect of their functions; human intellect discovers in the power of giving life biological laws which are part of the human person.9
In relation to the tendencies of instinct or passion, responsible parenthood means that necessary dominion which reason and will must exercise over them.
In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised, either by the deliberate and generous decision to raise a numerous family, or by the decision, made for grave motives and with due respect for the moral law, to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.
Responsible parenthood also and above all implies a more profound relationship to the objective moral order established by God, of which a right conscience is the faithful interpreter. The responsible exercise of parenthood implies, therefore, that husband and wife recognize fully their own duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society, in a correct hierarchy of values.
In the task of transmitting life, therefore, they are not free to proceed completely at will, as if they could determine in a wholly autonomous way the honest path to follow; but they must conform their activity to the creative intention of God, expressed in the very nature of marriage and of its acts, and manifested by the constant teaching of the Church.10
11. These acts, by which husband and wife are united in chaste intimacy, and by means of which human life is transmitted, are, as the Council recalled, "noble and worthy,"11 and they do not cease to be lawful if, for causes independent of the will of husband and wife, they are foreseen to be infecund, since they always remain ordained towards expressing and consolidating their union. In fact, as experience bears witness, not every conjugal act is followed by a new life. God has wisely disposed natural laws and rhythms of fecundity which, of themselves, cause a separation in the succession of births. Nonetheless the Church, calling men back to the observance of the norms of the natural law, as interpreted by their constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marriage act (quilibet matrimonii usus) must remain open to the transmission of life.
The honest practice of regulation of birth demands first of all that husband and wife acquire and possess solid convictions concerning the true values of life and of the family, and that they tend towards securing perfect self-mastery. To dominate instinct by means of one's reason and free will undoubtedly requires ascetical practices, so that the affective manifestations of conjugal life may observe the correct order, in particular with regard to the observance of periodic continence. Yet this discipline which is proper to the purity of married couples, far from harming conjugal love, rather confers on it a higher human value. It demands continual effort yet, thanks to its beneficent influence, husband and wife fully develop their personalities, being enriched with spiritual values. Such discipline bestows upon family life fruits of serenity and peace, and facilitates the solution of other problems; it favors attention for one's partner, helps both parties to drive out selfishness, the enemy of true love; and deepens their sense of responsibility. By its means, parents acquire the capacity of having a deeper and more efficacious influence in the education of their offspring; little children and youths grow up with a just appraisal of human values, and in the serene and harmonious development of their spiritual and sensitive faculties.
22. On this occasion, we wish to draw the attention of educators, and of all who perform duties of responsibility in regard to the common good of human society, to the need of creating an atmosphere favorable to education in chastity, that is, to the triumph of healthy liberty over license by means of respect for the moral order.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6humana.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6humana.htm)
I've very rarely heard Catholics invoke the scripture passage to which you refer. I do not believe that the Church wants its people to be poor, nor do I believe that the Church (as a collective) abuses the funds it does have. Now I'm speaking very generally about that, because I'm sure there are some parishes that do abuse their funds, and I have an issue with the collection plate being passed for each and every little thing (I won't get into my spiel on foreign missions.) However, even Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's.
I can only guess that you were very poorly catechized as a child.
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I can only guess that you were very poorly catechized as a child.
None of that came up (Catechism really didn't cover political or even social issues back then). I left the Church when I was in my teens, long before these were issues.
I speak fro practical experience. Archbishop Mahoney has been actively supporting illegal aliens for years. And you know that the name for people who practice the only allowable birth control -- the Rhythm Method -- is "Parents." And, again in many public speaking engagements, I have heard Mahoney and other Archbishops and Church spokepeople chide people with wealth for wanting to retain it instead of paying more taxes. I can't find the speeches, but I have heard then with my own ears (they make a lot of local news since The Church has designated my favorite station as The Enemy).
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Speaking as an outsider here. I'm not Catholic but I have been in many Catholic churches and it is mind boggling to me how opulent they are. (At the ones I've seen)
I had a real hard time going into the churches in South America. Beggars accosting you right outside the church. Priceless art and untold wealth on display inside. And before I get flamed and accused of not knowing all of the facts, I realize the Church has done charitable deeds and continues to fund such organizations. But you cannot ignore the elephant in the room. One church we visited in S.A. was filled with so much gold/silver and priceless art that a lot of the people in our group were dumbfounded. Even the tour guide (who was a local) addressed it. I felt sorry for her. She was understandably sympathetic to us "wealthy Americans" (tee hee) who didn't understand the juxtaposition of crushing poverty and Church wealth.
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unstoppable and uncontrolled reproduction.
Since when is that part of the liberal agenda? Just the opposite last time I checked :o
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3184135
SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sun Apr-20-08 03:50 PM
Original message
Is the Pope ever gonna LEAVE???
I am so tired of seeing mass, on every freaking channel..(or at least it seems that way)..
There ARE religious channels...LOTS of them..
Cover him when he speaks at the UN or visits the White House...but all this churchy stuff is creeping me OUT...
now I will don my flak jacket and try to evade the sniper-esque barrage of swingy smoke-filled thingies thrown at me
:( I'm not Catholic, but :bird: Screw you, DUmbass bigot. A little guilt there?
When there is an event (outside of sports) that 30,000 people are attending, it's sort of expected that the news media just might cover it. I know that seems strange to a DUmmie. You guys can't get 30,000 people to care about your little whinefests that you throw in DC every once in a while.
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What should trouble ALL conservatives is the intention behind the a$$hole post there and it is to quiet Christian thinking whether it be Catholic or Fundamentalism. What you see on view there today, and nearly everyday, is just how much hate they have for anything associated with the holy name of Jesus. The pope is despised merely because he is a representative of Christianity. Any airtime anything remotely Christian gets its 'disturbing' to the Christian haters over there. The sad reality for them that they fear is that it will invigorate both Catholics and other Christians alike.
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What should trouble ALL conservatives is the intention behind the a$$hole post there and it is to quiet Christian thinking whether it be Catholic or Fundamentalism. What you see on view there today, and nearly everyday, is just how much hate they have for anything associated with the holy name of Jesus. The pope is despised merely because he is a representative of Christianity. Any airtime anything remotely Christian gets its 'disturbing' to the Christian haters over there. The sad reality for them that they fear is that it will invigorate both Catholics and other Christians alike.
H5!
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Speaking as an outsider here. I'm not Catholic but I have been in many Catholic churches and it is mind boggling to me how opulent they are. (At the ones I've seen)
I had a real hard time going into the churches in South America. Beggars accosting you right outside the church. Priceless art and untold wealth on display inside. And before I get flamed and accused of not knowing all of the facts, I realize the Church has done charitable deeds and continues to fund such organizations. But you cannot ignore the elephant in the room. One church we visited in S.A. was filled with so much gold/silver and priceless art that a lot of the people in our group were dumbfounded. Even the tour guide (who was a local) addressed it. I felt sorry for her. She was understandably sympathetic to us "wealthy Americans" (tee hee) who didn't understand the juxtaposition of crushing poverty and Church wealth.
For this, I have two answers.
1) Some of the items used during the sacrifice of the Mass-chalices, vestments, etc.-are the personal property of the priest. Oftentimes, they are given them as gifts upon their priestly ordination. These items are indeed expensive and often opulent, but they are usually the property of individual priests and not the Church as a whole. Also, keep in mind that not every priest takes a vow of poverty.
2) Catholics believe that through the miracle of transubstantiation, the bread and wine become the Body of Jesus. It is only fitting that Jesus be exalted and treated royally. The fancy art? Why wouldn't a king have priceless art in His home?
I guess what it boils down to is that yes, it is a weird juxtaposition. But if you think about Christ as the King, and a church building as His home, it makes a little more sense. Why shouldn't we honor our Savior with the finest things we can afford?
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Speaking as an outsider here. I'm not Catholic but I have been in many Catholic churches and it is mind boggling to me how opulent they are. (At the ones I've seen)
I had a real hard time going into the churches in South America. Beggars accosting you right outside the church. Priceless art and untold wealth on display inside. And before I get flamed and accused of not knowing all of the facts, I realize the Church has done charitable deeds and continues to fund such organizations. But you cannot ignore the elephant in the room. One church we visited in S.A. was filled with so much gold/silver and priceless art that a lot of the people in our group were dumbfounded. Even the tour guide (who was a local) addressed it. I felt sorry for her. She was understandably sympathetic to us "wealthy Americans" (tee hee) who didn't understand the juxtaposition of crushing poverty and Church wealth.
For this, I have two answers.
1) Some of the items used during the sacrifice of the Mass-chalices, vestments, etc.-are the personal property of the priest. Oftentimes, they are given them as gifts upon their priestly ordination. These items are indeed expensive and often opulent, but they are usually the property of individual priests and not the Church as a whole. Also, keep in mind that not every priest takes a vow of poverty.
2) Catholics believe that through the miracle of transubstantiation, the bread and wine become the Body of Jesus. It is only fitting that Jesus be exalted and treated royally. The fancy art? Why wouldn't a king have priceless art in His home?
I guess what it boils down to is that yes, it is a weird juxtaposition. But if you think about Christ as the King, and a church building as His home, it makes a little more sense. Why shouldn't we honor our Savior with the finest things we can afford?
I guess it's a matter of propriety. I grew up in a comfortable middle-class existence. Third world style poverty was jarring to me. I left those churches shaking my head. My SIL refused to even step foot in them. She stayed outside giving coins to little urchins. Yes, she's the bleeding heart liberal moonbat of the family, but I couldn't help but think she made the wiser choice that day. I did my part by buying the little knicknacks/postcards/calendars from the poor vendors right outside. I asked our tour guide if they got to keep the money and she said yes.
I attended Protestant churches my entire life. Ones were the preacher drew a modest salary and things like repairing worn out pews were debated by committee. A person like me (foolish foreigner, silly American what-have-you) sees the priceless 16th century art and craftsmanship on display in a Cathedral and thinks that it would be better suited to a muesum or private collection and the proceeds used to benefit the poor church members. I really mean no offense to Catholics. It's just a totally different world to someone like me. With the differences being even more stark in a poor country like the ones I've visited.
I understand the reasoning even though I don't believe in transubstantiation. I also don't think Jesus cares how fine the craftmanship of the church is or how much precious metal is used in the altar. We believe in honoring the Savior through our love and devotion and living the Word. That's not to say we don't take Communion seriously. But I can promise you, those little cups and trays were purchased out of a Baptist supply catalog.
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I guess it's a matter of propriety. I grew up in a comfortable middle-class existence. Third world style poverty was jarring to me. I left those churches shaking my head. My SIL refused to even step foot in them. She stayed outside giving coins to little urchins. Yes, she's the bleeding heart liberal moonbat of the family, but I couldn't help but think she made the wiser choice that day. I did my part by buying the little knicknacks/postcards/calendars from the poor vendors right outside. I asked our tour guide if they got to keep the money and she said yes.
I attended Protestant churches my entire life. Ones were the preacher drew a modest salary and things like repairing worn out pews were debated by committee. A person like me (foolish foreigner, silly American what-have-you) sees the priceless 16th century art and craftsmanship on display in a Cathedral and thinks that it would be better suited to a muesum or private collection and the proceeds used to benefit the poor church members. I really mean no offense to Catholics. It's just a totally different world to someone like me. With the differences being even more stark in a poor country like the ones I've visited.
I understand the reasoning even though I don't believe in transubstantiation. I also don't think Jesus cares how fine the craftmanship of the church is or how much precious metal is used in the altar. We believe in honoring the Savior through our love and devotion and living the Word. That's not to say we don't take Communion seriously. But I can promise you, those little cups and trays were purchased out of a Baptist supply catalog.
There is no offense taken, trust me. But I understand that it is weird to non-Catholics to see how ornate and opulent our churches are.
I agree with you that I don't think Jesus cares if our chalices and patens are solid gold or not; however, the rationale behind it is that Jesus is a king, and should be treated as such.
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^No, I totally understand where you are coming from. I found the cathedrals breathtaking and I admired the love and devotion that went into them. To know that craftsmen spent literally a lifetime carving the intricate altars brought a tear to my eye. But yes, it was hard to reconcile in my Protestant mind. The church my family attends started in an auto auction garage! 14 families used to meet there and sit on metal chairs until there was enough money to buy land and build a chapel. I was able to witness the ceremonial burning of the mortgage a few years ago. Apples and penguins though. You really can't compare ancient cathedrals to modern middle class American churches.
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Speaking as an outsider here. I'm not Catholic but I have been in many Catholic churches and it is mind boggling to me how opulent they are. (At the ones I've seen)
I had a real hard time going into the churches in South America. Beggars accosting you right outside the church. Priceless art and untold wealth on display inside. And before I get flamed and accused of not knowing all of the facts, I realize the Church has done charitable deeds and continues to fund such organizations. But you cannot ignore the elephant in the room. One church we visited in S.A. was filled with so much gold/silver and priceless art that a lot of the people in our group were dumbfounded. Even the tour guide (who was a local) addressed it. I felt sorry for her. She was understandably sympathetic to us "wealthy Americans" (tee hee) who didn't understand the juxtaposition of crushing poverty and Church wealth.
It is part of why I left The Church. I couldn't resolve that (among others) conflict. The new Cathedral of Angels cost $187 million. You can feed a lot of hungry for even half that and still have a wonderful edifice.
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Speaking as an outsider here. I'm not Catholic but I have been in many Catholic churches and it is mind boggling to me how opulent they are. (At the ones I've seen)
I had a real hard time going into the churches in South America. Beggars accosting you right outside the church. Priceless art and untold wealth on display inside. And before I get flamed and accused of not knowing all of the facts, I realize the Church has done charitable deeds and continues to fund such organizations. But you cannot ignore the elephant in the room. One church we visited in S.A. was filled with so much gold/silver and priceless art that a lot of the people in our group were dumbfounded. Even the tour guide (who was a local) addressed it. I felt sorry for her. She was understandably sympathetic to us "wealthy Americans" (tee hee) who didn't understand the juxtaposition of crushing poverty and Church wealth.
It is part of why I left The Church. I couldn't resolve that (among others) conflict. The new Cathedral of Angels cost $187 million. You can feed a lot of hungry for even half that and still have a wonderful edifice.
UGH! That Cathedral is 1) an eyesore and 2) a shameful display of greed on the part of that diocese.
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Well no wonder the DUmmies are upset!!! :-)
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irZmknvOB4I[/youtube]
:tongue: :fuelfire: