The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: Miss Mia on September 29, 2008, 12:51:41 PM
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Massive financial bailout fails in the House (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523/)
Debate prior to balloting showed deep reservations about $700 billion plan
WASHINGTON - The House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion bailout today following extended debate where many members, including some who brokered the deal with it, was highly unpopular.
The preliminary vote was 185-197. Members had a limited amount of time to change their votes. Following the deadline, the margin was growing for those opposed to the measure.
Even as the electronic roll call began, Democratic and Republican leaders were uncertain about having enough votes to pass the politically unpopular plan. It's the most sweeping government intervention in markets since the Great Depression.
The bailout puts in place an unprecedented federal program to buy up rotten assets from cash-starved firms. The goal is to free up choked credit that was threatening to cause broader market turmoil.
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By no means do I assume that this is "over", but SCORE ONE FOR THE GOOD GUYS!
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fox is running a split screen, at one point the dow went to -588
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The votes have been tallied.
228 NAY.
205 YEA.
The Crap Sandwich goes down in flames.
Still no official announcement on the House floor. Lots of yelling for “order.â€
Someone has changed his/her vote.
It’s now 227 NAY, 206 YEA, 1 Not Voting.
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/29/breaking-house-rejects-trillion-dollar-plus-crap-sandwich/
It was Michelle Malkin's title, not mine!
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
H5, nice to see some sanity injected into all the chest-thumping on this. Unpopular or not, there are very heavy extended consequences that go along with tubing this, a lot deeper than most of the crtiics seem to be able to grasp.
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
I wonder how many more banks failing is enough before something is done? :whatever:
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
H5.
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H5, nice to see some sanity injected into all the chest-thumping on this. Unpopular or not, there are very heavy extended consequences that go along with tubing this, a lot deeper than most of the crtiics seem to be able to grasp.
If this really is needed then the Congress needs to do a better job of selling it to the American people who aren't stupid. They have to come up with something better than "The sky is falling, give us the money NOW!".
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion - and I admit to being in a distinct minority with my own.
It doesn't change the facts though, that because these ****ers leveraged and banked your investment on the government bailing them out when their poor business decisions led to the inevitable results, whether the bail out happens or not the US economy is a 'plane going DOWN. Some think that the bailout will soften the crash at the end of that drop, others think that it'll just create another "Bubble" that artificially inflates a really bad situation, leaving us in line for an even bigger hit when that bubble bursts. Regardless, the market forces are about to prove - once again - to those alert enough to watch for it, that GOVERNMENT MEDDLING in free markets which it cannot control, and demonstrably has no understanding of, cannot make BAD business decisions GOOD. The Congress can throw more and more socialism and "market controls" on, and try to convince themselves that they can keep the "American people" from feeling the hurt - and then taking it out on the incompetents that created this mess. Market forces will prevail however. They always do.
As for all of us being intertwined in this damned thing; well, I'M NOT. I am an engineer with my own fabrication tools in my garage, and no fear of Manual Labor. That means that I can sell to anybody else who managed to think farther ahead than a ****in' day-trader whatever they need to advance THEIR American dream, and thereby advance MY American dream just that much more. I've got no doubt that WHEN the economy goes in the tank, I'll feel the hurt as well; but I'm not losing MY "savings" hand over fist because it was banked on the Stock Market doing the impossible.
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H5, nice to see some sanity injected into all the chest-thumping on this. Unpopular or not, there are very heavy extended consequences that go along with tubing this, a lot deeper than most of the crtiics seem to be able to grasp.
If this really is needed then the Congress needs to do a better job of selling it to the American people who aren't stupid. They have to come up with something better than "The sky is falling, give us the money NOW!".
I would say more like "Willfully ignorant" than "Stupid." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what happens when small businesses have about ten bucks for a line of credit.
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I think the market is still a viable option for long term investment. I'm a small business owner, so I don't have a 401k, but I have a large portion of my retirement money going into a roth IRA and I'm not too worried about it. Heck, between now and the time I want to retire, I'm expecting things to grow sufficiently. Over its history the market has grown by what, 11 or 12%? People need to look long term instead of being so darned short sighted.
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My rat's ass meter for the Dow only extends so far as to be concerned for all those who still have 401(k)s tied into that nightmare anymore. Playing Russian Roulette is not the same thing as SAVING for your retirement. Kinda like basing your retirement plan on how the Blackjack table treats you.
Well, I do give a rat's ass about it. our livlihood depends on the interconnectedness and health of these things. And most of you are fooling yourselves if you think this isn't important to you too. When a company can not get more then .01 %(that's not 1 percent, that's 1 hundreth of 1 percent) on overnight funds, where do you think they are going to start cutting back? hmm? Especially when their budgets are already stretched to the max? I know it's fun to get a chuckle at the wall street set(which we aren't exactly part of working in a seperate niche), but it will trickle down. I actually hated to think of this happening to fellow Americans, but the more both conservatives and liberals wish ill will on basically 'my house' and the house of many others I know in the business, the more I wouldn't mind seeing a little vengance reaped on those cackling gleefully in the corner at the failings of others made, I might add, on policies encouraged by our federal government. Does that mean I think everything should be left intact? No, and it won't be...too much has already happened for that, but I certainly don't want to test the limits on this and watch people NOT intimately involved get their asses handed to them in the fallout.
I give a rat's ass too, but tell me why you want me to spend 500K on a house when it is really worth 150k?? That is just stupid.
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Gov't becoming more deeply involved in a problem caused by gov't was a bad deal. You don't reward the employee who lost the big account by giving him control over all the big accounts. More free market solutions is the answer. Hopefully the conservatives and moderates in more conservative districts will hold out for a better bill, like reducing the capital gains tax, etc... that will invite capital investment.
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the dems are still in the majority. there is a real danger that they will cram an even worse bill down the house republicans' throats later in the week. and maybe the senate will be desperate enough to pass it, and maybe the president will be desperate enough to sign it.
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the dems are still in the majority. there is a real danger that they will cram an even worse bill down the house republicans' throats later in the week. and maybe the senate will be desperate enough to pass it, and maybe the president will be desperate enough to sign it.
I've been looking over at the DUmp. They are rabidly against it, but for different reasons than most of us.
Still odd when we agree with them.
Same thing on some other boards I'm on. You have liberals and conservatives agreeing on this one, then arguing about WHY it's bad. It's kind of funny at times.
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
I read a comment on FR which indicated that Pelosi's rant managed to scare off quite a few of her own side. It'll be interesting to see how the aftermath pans out.
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:cheersmate: to the House, and :cheersmate: for more opportunities to buy stocks on the cheap!
+1 I took a beating when the housing market crashed...time for everyone else to follow in line. The correction will happen, might as well get it over with now and not postpone it for 3 years. Let the correction HAPPEN. It's not my place or the gov't's place to bail out bad investments.
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
I read a comment on FR which indicated that Pelosi's rant managed to scare off quite a few of her own side. It'll be interesting to see how the aftermath pans out.
40% of the Democrats....votes NO. Pelosi stood there at the news conference and said the reason the Bailout Bill didn't pass is because 12 Republicans didn't vote aye.
40%(93) is a heck of a lot of members who didn't like it either!
What the Democrats did by coming out and blaming all the Republicans....they shot themselves in the collective foot. While they were speaking publically.....the DOW dropped another 200 points!
People are sick and tired of Pelosi/Reid and their collective asinine comments.
Tomorrow is Rosh Hashanah....so nothing will get done before late Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest.
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40% of the Democrats....votes NO. Pelosi stood there at the news conference and said the reason the Bailout Bill didn't pass is because 12 Republicans didn't vote aye.
40%(93) is a heck of a lot of members who didn't like it either!
What the Democrats did by coming out and blaming all the Republicans....they shot themselves in the collective foot. While they were speaking publically.....the DOW dropped another 200 points!
People are sick and tired of Pelosi/Reid and their collective asinine comments.
Tomorrow is Rosh Hashanah....so nothing will get done before late Wednesday or Thursday at the earliest.
The trouble is the media will pick up with this and run. Looks like the Republicans will get stuck with the blame for everything. Not to worry President Hope'n'change will put everything right. :(
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Anytime the House can get Pelosi to look this sad and defeated, I trust whatever happened was a good thing for America. When she's happy, I'm scared.
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4876/stretcheq6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
I read a comment on FR which indicated that Pelosi's rant managed to scare off quite a few of her own side. It'll be interesting to see how the aftermath pans out.
Karma's a bitch, innit?
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Anytime the House can get Pelosi to look this sad and defeated, I trust whatever happened was a good thing for America. When she's happy, I'm scared.
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4876/stretcheq6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Wow...we are DEFINETLY doing something right!
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Anytime the House can get Pelosi to look this sad and defeated, I trust whatever happened was a good thing for America. When she's happy, I'm scared.
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4876/stretcheq6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
If you tilted her head back and used a bow could you play her throat like a chello? Because she has some NASTY face lift tension wattle going on there...
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
add to that the fact that it is Pelosi who was standing in the way of offshore drilling. I don't know how far it is possible for her ratings to fall but I suspect it will be like -100... :lmao:
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Anytime the House can get Pelosi to look this sad and defeated, I trust whatever happened was a good thing for America. When she's happy, I'm scared.
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4876/stretcheq6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
If you tilted her head back and used a bow could you play her throat like a chello? Because she has some NASTY face lift tension wattle going on there...
And look at her ear, in a year or two her ears will be meeting at the back of her head.
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
add to that the fact that it is Pelosi who was standing in the way of offshore drilling. I don't know how far it is possible for her ratings to fall but I suspect it will be like -100... :lmao:
Expect to have a Republican majority in Congress next session. :-)
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apparently pelosi delivered another one of her PMS-assisted lunatic rants just before the roll call that blamed the entire mess on george bush and the republicans, and ended up costing herself GOP votes. whether it was enough votes to have made a difference is another story, but if she wanted it to pass, all she had to do was keep her pie hole shut.
that woman has utterly poisoned the well in the house. The BarackStar! has long since stopped talking about hope, healing, and unity, but even if he suddenly changed his mind, he is now looking at deficit of goodwill about as big as the grand canyon.
oh, and the doddering old man over in the senate has done about the same thing there.
add to that the fact that it is Pelosi who was standing in the way of offshore drilling. I don't know how far it is possible for her ratings to fall but I suspect it will be like -100... :lmao:
Yeah, well, in the district she represents that means a landslide vote to send her back to Washington.
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The Republicans are blaming it on Pelosi's ridiculous ramblings to which Frank of all people told them to get over it and toughen up -- that they should be doing what is best for the nation. He also threw in there that the Republicans in doing this are revolting against GWB and McCain.
I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore. I am thrilled this tanked. The Boston media is actually all over Frank for this disaster. I hope that bastard loses his seat over this.
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what's next? a recount? back to the drawing board?
DOW futures are up btw...Isn't closing with a - 777 good luck? :uhsure:
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The Republicans are blaming it on Pelosi's ridiculous ramblings to which Frank of all people told them to get over it and toughen up -- that they should be doing what is best for the nation. He also threw in there that the Republicans in doing this are revolting against GWB and McCain.
I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore. I am thrilled this tanked. The Boston media is actually all over Frank for this disaster. I hope that bastard loses his seat over this.
I'm glad someone is calling one of the bastards on ridiculously overplaying his crappy hand, I'd love to see that disgusting porkroll Schumer take a pounding for his own grandstanding bullshit while they're at it.
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House to Wall Street: Drop dead
Commentary: Uneasy Republicans couldn't stomach massive bailout
By MarketWatch
Last update: 2:40 p.m. EDT Sept. 29, 2008
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) - With a firm rejection of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, the House Republicans have told the financial markets that they'll have to solve their problems on their own, without $700 billion of taxpayer money.
In a stunning vote on Monday, the House rejected the financial rescue package on a vote of 205 to 228. Republicans voted against the bill by a two-to-one ratio, and in the process rejected their own leadership, who had worked for nearly a week to craft a bill that could gain a majority. Nearly 100 Democrats also voted against the bill, spurning their leadership.
Many Republicans in the House were never persuaded that the credit crunch in the financial system is an impending disaster deserving of taxpayer aid. Politicians who had cut their teeth on free-market principles couldn't accept the idea that the federal government should back up the banks who had foolishly bet everything on the housing bubble.
Or they didn't want to face the voters in six weeks and explain why a Republican would vote for the biggest government bailout ever.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/house-wall-street-drop-dead/story.aspx?guid={6FCA5CAB-BFB5-41ED-8FBB-B4005F4169DA}
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The Republicans are blaming it on Pelosi's ridiculous ramblings to which Frank of all people told them to get over it and toughen up -- that they should be doing what is best for the nation. He also threw in there that the Republicans in doing this are revolting against GWB and McCain.
I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore. I am thrilled this tanked. The Boston media is actually all over Frank for this disaster. I hope that bastard loses his seat over this.
I'm glad someone is calling one of the bastards on ridiculously overplaying his crappy hand, I'd love to see that disgusting porkroll Schumer take a pounding for his own grandstanding bullshit while they're at it.
He had a shit-eating grin on his face 2 days ago every time a republican spoke, but a smile when Pelosi takes the throne.
I'm glad to see this wiped the smiles off their faces. This whole bail-out mess makes me think much less of President Bush btw....he succumbed to them and that is just sad.
H5 to the republicans in the house.
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McCain blames Obama for bailout defeat
By POLITICO STAFF | 9/29/08 3:31 PM EDT Text Size:
Shortly after the bailout vote, a statement from the campaign of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) blamed the loss on "the Democratic leadership: Senators [Barack] Obama and [Harry] Reid, Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi and others.
"Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families," said the statement, released in the name of senior policy adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin.
Here is the text of the statement:
“From the minute John McCain suspended his campaign and arrived in Washington to address this crisis, he was attacked by the Democratic leadership: Senators Obama and Reid, Speaker Pelosi and others. Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families.
“Barack Obama failed to lead, phoned it in, attacked John McCain, and refused to even say if he supported the final bill.
“Just before the vote, when the outcome was still in doubt, Speaker Pelosi gave a strongly worded partisan speech and poisoned the outcome.
“This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country.†— McCain-Palin senior policy adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/14087.html
Stick that in your turban and smoke it skippy. I have to wipe the tears from the corners of my eyes I am so proud of McCain's campaign right now -- GENIUS.
Karl Rove has met his match.
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funny as hell, the liberals are freaking out over this, why aren't they celebrating? They are the very ones who wanted to sock it to corporate America and the rich.. :lmao:
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Anyone know how the junior senator wannabe president Hillary Clinton voted? She hasn't been seen as a key operator on any of this...perhaps purposely.
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what's next? a recount? back to the drawing board?
DOW futures are up btw...Isn't closing with a - 777 good luck? :uhsure:
I'm curious since you said and I quote that you would 'worry when we had a day like in 87' what you say to this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601057&sid=aFVo3p8GzeWk&refer=futures
Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks plunged and the Standard & Poor's 500 Index tumbled the most since the 1987 crash after the House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion plan to rescue the financial system.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average slid 778 points for its biggest point drop ever as $1.2 trillion in market value was erased from American equities. The MSCI World Index of 23 developed markets slid 6.9 percent, the most in 21 years.
Wachovia Corp. tumbled 82 percent after the bank was sold to Citigroup Inc. in a deal brokered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., sending shares of Sovereign Bancorp Inc. down 72 percent and National City Corp. 63 percent lower. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley, the two largest Wall Street securities firms, fell more than 12 percent. General Motors Corp., Chevron Corp. and Intel Corp. sank more than 10 percent each as all 30 Dow average stocks lost at least 2.8 percent.
``We've completely decimated confidence in the markets,'' said James Dunigan, managing executive of investments at PNC Wealth Management, which oversees $66 billion in Philadelphia. ``I appreciate their wanting to be a watchdog. On the other hand, if the kitchen's on fire, you don't want it to spread to rest of the house.'' (totally agree with this and it's what I've been saying)
The S&P 500 decreased 106.59 points, or 8.8 percent, to 1,106.42. The Dow slid 7 percent to 10,365.45. The Nasdaq Composite Index declined 199.61, or 9.1 percent, to 1,983.73, its steepest plunge since April 2000. Twenty-five stocks fell for each that rose on the New York Stock Exchange as 2 billion shares were traded on the floor, 35 percent more than the three- month average.
Now, I admit, I don't often stay in these threads. I find it tedious to explain the importance of liquidity, fixed income movement, historical signifigance, credit availability, and such to seasoned investment professionals, but given that some of the things have happened that would 'worry' certain posters here, I thought perhaps we could get a word as to why optimism reigns in the face of their own triggers being reached.
BTW, the DOW futures are now down in after market trading(37 currently)
http://money.cnn.com/data/afterhours/index.html
A little side note, bonds are up...bonds(treasuries) go way up in a bad economy...FYI
Another little tidbit to look at
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm
The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.
Just a few other interesting things on the credit implications
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/bondcenter/treasury_prices/index.htm
Now, of course this market should have constricted, but the point it is restricting to now is not good for the economy.
Well, peeps, gotta run. Please, if you want to address anything I've said, address the content of the articles as they are the backups I failed to provide the first time around(unfortunately the other info I could not send out as it was not for reproduction and I didn't want to get involved with issues of confidentiality or copyright if there were any).
Now, all this said, am I a pessimist? In the short term, yes, most definitely. In the long term, 3 years out and that's WITH the bailout, I am not. More like 5 without it. Do I like being vindicated--hell no because I know this is inherently bad for the American people. The repercussions of even businesses having a hard time getting credit WILL hurt the average person. The implication of seriously reduced retail spending will hurt the many people who work there. The problems that home selling has on people being able to move where there is opportunity will have repercussions(not everyone can rent out--if you have a VA loan you are not allowed and good luck getting that restructered into a conventional).
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Anyone know how the junior senator wannabe president Hillary Clinton voted? She hasn't been seen as a key operator on any of this...perhaps purposely.
This was the House vote, it never moved to the Senate.
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Anyone know how the junior senator wannabe president Hillary Clinton voted? She hasn't been seen as a key operator on any of this...perhaps purposely.
This was the House vote, it never moved to the Senate.
Too bad, I was looking forward to Teh Obamessiah voting "Present" on it.
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They way I am seeing this is the economy is kind of like a box of hand grenades. The government told people to remove the saftey pins on some of the grenades and then hold on to them to keep them from exploding. Eventually someone is going to have to let go of their grip. The smart people want those pins back in the grenades and the idiots( Mostly the Dems) are standing around telling those holding them to keep hanging on. If they don't put he pins back we will all be looking at this again in the years to come.
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They way I am seeing this is the economy is kind of like a box of hand grenades. The government told people to remove the saftey pins on some of the grenades and then hold on to them to keep them from exploding. Eventually someone is going to have to let go of their grip. The smart people want those pins back in the grenades and the idiots( Mostly the Dems) are standing around telling those holding them to keep hanging on. If they don't put he pins back we will all be looking at this again in the years to come.
excellent analogy. The dems clearly want to shove those holding the grenades though. And then run like hell.
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what's next? a recount? back to the drawing board?
DOW futures are up btw...Isn't closing with a - 777 good luck? :uhsure:
I'm curious since you said and I quote that you would 'worry when we had a day like in 87' what you say to this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601057&sid=aFVo3p8GzeWk&refer=futures
Sept. 29 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks plunged and the Standard & Poor's 500 Index tumbled the most since the 1987 crash after the House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion plan to rescue the financial system.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average slid 778 points for its biggest point drop ever as $1.2 trillion in market value was erased from American equities. The MSCI World Index of 23 developed markets slid 6.9 percent, the most in 21 years.
Wachovia Corp. tumbled 82 percent after the bank was sold to Citigroup Inc. in a deal brokered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., sending shares of Sovereign Bancorp Inc. down 72 percent and National City Corp. 63 percent lower. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley, the two largest Wall Street securities firms, fell more than 12 percent. General Motors Corp., Chevron Corp. and Intel Corp. sank more than 10 percent each as all 30 Dow average stocks lost at least 2.8 percent.
``We've completely decimated confidence in the markets,'' said James Dunigan, managing executive of investments at PNC Wealth Management, which oversees $66 billion in Philadelphia. ``I appreciate their wanting to be a watchdog. On the other hand, if the kitchen's on fire, you don't want it to spread to rest of the house.'' (totally agree with this and it's what I've been saying)
The S&P 500 decreased 106.59 points, or 8.8 percent, to 1,106.42. The Dow slid 7 percent to 10,365.45. The Nasdaq Composite Index declined 199.61, or 9.1 percent, to 1,983.73, its steepest plunge since April 2000. Twenty-five stocks fell for each that rose on the New York Stock Exchange as 2 billion shares were traded on the floor, 35 percent more than the three- month average.
Now, I admit, I don't often stay in these threads. I find it tedious to explain the importance of liquidity, fixed income movement, historical signifigance, credit availability, and such to seasoned investment professionals, but given that some of the things have happened that would 'worry' certain posters here, I thought perhaps we could get a word as to why optimism reigns in the face of their own triggers being reached.
BTW, the DOW futures are now down in after market trading(37 currently)
http://money.cnn.com/data/afterhours/index.html
A little side note, bonds are up...bonds(treasuries) go way up in a bad economy...FYI
Another little tidbit to look at
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm
The day's loss knocked out approximately $1.2 trillion in market value, the first post-$1 trillion day ever, according to a drop in the Dow Jones Wilshire 5000, the broadest measure of the stock market.
Just a few other interesting things on the credit implications
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/bondcenter/treasury_prices/index.htm
Now, of course this market should have constricted, but the point it is restricting to now is not good for the economy.
Well, peeps, gotta run. Please, if you want to address anything I've said, address the content of the articles as they are the backups I failed to provide the first time around(unfortunately the other info I could not send out as it was not for reproduction and I didn't want to get involved with issues of confidentiality or copyright if there were any).
Now, all this said, am I a pessimist? In the short term, yes, most definitely. In the long term, 3 years out and that's WITH the bailout, I am not. More like 5 without it. Do I like being vindicated--hell no because I know this is inherently bad for the American people. The repercussions of even businesses having a hard time getting credit WILL hurt the average person. The implication of seriously reduced retail spending will hurt the many people who work there. The problems that home selling has on people being able to move where there is opportunity will have repercussions(not everyone can rent out--if you have a VA loan you are not allowed and good luck getting that restructered into a conventional).
777 point fall today is not the same as a 777 point fall in 1987. Black Monday had a 1 day drop of 24%, today's was about 6.5%.
As I said, let the correction happen....just as it did in the housing sector. I'm a long term investor in housing and still haven't seen a bottom (nationally) although some states have bottomed out. Buckle up and hold on.
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They way I am seeing this is the economy is kind of like a box of hand grenades. The government told people to remove the saftey pins on some of the grenades and then hold on to them to keep them from exploding. Eventually someone is going to have to let go of their grip. The smart people want those pins back in the grenades and the idiots( Mostly the Dems) are standing around telling those holding them to keep hanging on. If they don't put he pins back we will all be looking at this again in the years to come.
excellent analogy. The dems clearly want to shove those holding the grenades though. And then run like hell.
And guess who is going to get caught in the blast when it happenes? Most likely all of us and not them.
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Anyone know how the junior senator wannabe president Hillary Clinton voted? She hasn't been seen as a key operator on any of this...perhaps purposely.
This was the House vote, it never moved to the Senate.
Bah...that's right..lol
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They way I am seeing this is the economy is kind of like a box of hand grenades. The government told people to remove the saftey pins on some of the grenades and then hold on to them to keep them from exploding. Eventually someone is going to have to let go of their grip. The smart people want those pins back in the grenades and the idiots( Mostly the Dems) are standing around telling those holding them to keep hanging on. If they don't put he pins back we will all be looking at this again in the years to come.
excellent analogy. The dems clearly want to shove those holding the grenades though. And then run like hell.
And guess who is going to get caught in the blast when it happenes? Most likely all of us and not them.
Unless we get our heads about us soon, and lob those grenades where they'll do the most good.
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Optimism reigns, Jty, because going through life as a pessimist can be awfully taxing on the body, mind, and soul. That's in my opinion, anyway.
I like Michelle Malkin's take on it...it's all about perspective (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/09/29/some-perspective-for-the-chicken-littles/):
Some perspective for the Chicken Littles
By Michelle Malkin • September 29, 2008 04:55 PM
Today’s stock market drop is a record point drop, but does not even crack the top 10 single-day percentage drops in American history.
Let’s stop pounding the panic buttons.
On FNC right now, Neil Cavuto emphasizes that lending is going on and puts a damper on Heather Nauert’s panic-button heaving about credit-freeze anecdotes.
Are there businesses getting turned down for loans? Yes.
Here’s a novel thought: Maybe banks are finally learning they shouldn’t fork over money to bad risks.
There's more at the link above, including a link to a website that documents other crashes throughout history. It's a good reminder that everything, including the stock market, is cyclical. This too shall pass. As franksolich so astutely notes from time to time, one adapts, one adjusts, and one moves on.
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do y'all remember how we were all talking about energy independence the last few weeks ?
remember how the donkeys we losing with it ?
and now we've blown that off the front page and its 1929 again.
who does better when people are fretting about money ?
I'm sure you'll recall that the dems had the votes to pass this thing last week and yet they didn't. I'm thinking that they needed to stretch this out as long as possible to help the messiah.
not only will they sell the middle east down sewer
not only will they risk American soldiers by attempting to delay reductions in numbers
they're happy to risk a depression just to elect FDR II.
I need a drink....
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Some HR final vote: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml
Haha, Nancy. Of course, my dolt Congressman voted for this. I hope he pays with his seat.
777 point fall today is not the same as a 777 point fall in 1987. Black Monday had a 1 day drop of 24%, today's was about 6.5%.
As I said, let the correction happen....just as it did in the housing sector. I'm a long term investor in housing and still haven't seen a bottom (nationally) although some states have bottomed out. Buckle up and hold on.
That's right, today was only the bigggest drop in absolute numbers. You sound as if you don't want a bailout at all, for this to be handled by the free market, but I may misunderstood - I think this bill was a choice between big Obamite socialism and economic chaos, the latter wins AFAIC.
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do y'all remember how we were all talking about energy independence the last few weeks ?
remember how the donkeys we losing with it ?
and now we've blown that off the front page and its 1929 again.
who does better when people are fretting about money ?
I'm sure you'll recall that the dems had the votes to pass this thing last week and yet they didn't. I'm thinking that they needed to stretch this out as long as possible to help the messiah.
not only will they sell the middle east down sewer
not only will they risk American soldiers by attempting to delay reductions in numbers
they're happy to risk a depression just to elect FDR II.
I need a drink....
We are no where near a depression. We aren't even in a recession.
Don't repeat democratic/uh-bam-uh talking points. It does no one any good.
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Voted Yes:
Ackerman
Allen
Andrews
Arcuri
Bachus
Baird
Baldwin
Bean
Berman
Berry
Bishop (GA)
Bishop (NY)
Blunt
Boehner
Bonner
Bono Mack
Boozman
Boren
Boswell
Boucher
Boyd (FL)
Brady (PA)
Brady (TX)
Brown (SC)
Brown, Corrine
Calvert
Camp (MI)
Campbell (CA)
Cannon
Cantor
Capps
Capuano
Cardoza
Carnahan
Castle
Clarke
Clyburn
Cohen
Cole (OK)
Cooper
Costa
Cramer
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cubin
Davis (AL)
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
Davis, Tom
DeGette
DeLauro
Dicks
Dingell
Donnelly
Doyle
Dreier
Edwards (TX)
Ehlers
Ellison
Ellsworth
Emanuel
Emerson
Engel
Eshoo
Etheridge
Everett
Farr
Fattah
Ferguson
Fossella
Foster
Frank (MA)
Gilchrest
Gonzalez
Gordon
Granger
Gutierrez
Hall (NY)
Hare
Harman
Hastings (FL)
Herger
Higgins
Hinojosa
Hobson
Holt
Honda
Hooley
Hoyer
Inglis (SC)
Israel
Johnson, E. B.
Kanjorski
Kennedy
Kildee
Kind
King (NY)
Kirk
Klein (FL)
Kline (MN)
LaHood
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Levin
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Loebsack
Lofgren, Zoe
Lowey
Lungren, Daniel E.
Mahoney (FL)
Maloney (NY)
Markey
Marshall
Matsui
McCarthy (NY)
McCollum (MN)
McCrery
McDermott
McGovern
McHugh
McKeon
McNerney
McNulty
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Melancon
Miller (NC)
Miller, Gary
Miller, George
Mollohan
Moore (WI)
Moran (VA)
Murphy (CT)
Murphy, Patrick
Murtha
Nadler
Neal (MA)
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Pallone
Pelosi
Perlmutter
Peterson (PA)
Pickering
Pomeroy
Porter
Price (NC)
Pryce (OH)
Putnam
Radanovich
Rahall
Rangel
Regula
Reyes
Reynolds
Richardson
Rogers (AL)
Rogers (KY)
Ross
Ruppersberger
Ryan (OH)
Ryan (WI)
Sarbanes
Saxton
Schakowsky
Schwartz
Sessions
Sestak
Shays
Simpson
Sires
Skelton
Slaughter
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Snyder
Souder
Space
Speier
Spratt
Tancredo
Tanner
Tauscher
Towns
Tsongas
Upton
Van Hollen
Velázquez
Walden (OR)
Walsh (NY)
Wasserman Schultz
Waters
Watt
Waxman
Weiner
Weldon (FL)
Wexler
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (OH)
Wilson (SC)
Wolf
Voted No:
Abercrombie
Aderholt
Akin
Alexander
Altmire
Baca
Bachmann
Barrett (SC)
Barrow
Bartlett (MD)
Barton (TX)
Becerra
Berkley
Biggert
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bishop (UT)
Blackburn
Blumenauer
Boustany
Boyda (KS)
Braley (IA)
Broun (GA)
Brown-Waite, Ginny
Buchanan
Burgess
Burton (IN)
Butterfield
Buyer
Capito
Carney
Carson
Carter
Castor
Cazayoux
Chabot
Chandler
Childers
Clay
Cleaver
Coble
Conaway
Conyers
Costello
Courtney
Cuellar
Culberson
Cummings
Davis (KY)
Davis, David
Davis, Lincoln
Deal (GA)
DeFazio
Delahunt
Dent
Diaz-Balart, L.
Diaz-Balart, M.
Doggett
Doolittle
Drake
Duncan
Edwards (MD)
English (PA)
Fallin
Feeney
Filner
Flake
Forbes
Fortenberry
Foxx
Franks (AZ)
Frelinghuysen
Gallegly
Garrett (NJ)
Gerlach
Giffords
Gillibrand
Gingrey
Gohmert
Goode
Goodlatte
Graves
Green, Al
Green, Gene
Grijalva
Hall (TX)
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Heller
Hensarling
Herseth Sandlin
Hill
Hinchey
Hirono
Hodes
Hoekstra
Holden
Hulshof
Hunter
Inslee
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jefferson
Johnson (GA)
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Jordan
Kagen
Kaptur
Keller
Kilpatrick
King (IA)
Kingston
Knollenberg
Kucinich
Kuhl (NY)
Lampson
Latham
LaTourette
Latta
Lee
Lewis (GA)
Linder
Lipinski
LoBiondo
Lucas
Lynch
Mack
Manzullo
Marchant
Matheson
McCarthy (CA)
McCaul (TX)
McCotter
McHenry
McIntyre
McMorris Rodgers
Mica
Michaud
Miller (FL)
Miller (MI)
Mitchell
Moran (KS)
Murphy, Tim
Musgrave
Myrick
Napolitano
Neugebauer
Nunes
Ortiz
Pascrell
Pastor
Paul
Payne
Pearce
Pence
Peterson (MN)
Petri
Pitts
Platts
Poe
Price (GA)
Ramstad
Rehberg
Reichert
Renzi
Rodriguez
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Ros-Lehtinen
Roskam
Rothman
Roybal-Allard
Royce
Rush
Salazar
Sali
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sanchez, Loretta
Scalise
Schiff
Schmidt
Scott (GA)
Scott (VA)
Sensenbrenner
Serrano
Shadegg
Shea-Porter
Sherman
Shimkus
Shuler
Shuster
Smith (NE)
Smith (NJ)
Solis
Stark
Stearns
Stupak
Sullivan
Sutton
Taylor
Terry
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Thornberry
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Tierney
Turner
Udall (CO)
Udall (NM)
Visclosky
Walberg
Walz (MN)
Wamp
Watson
Welch (VT)
Westmoreland
Whitfield (KY)
Wittman (VA)
Woolsey
Wu
Yarmuth
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
Not Voting:
Weller
http://stockmarketcrash08.com/ (http://stockmarketcrash08.com/)
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do y'all remember how we were all talking about energy independence the last few weeks ?
remember how the donkeys we losing with it ?
and now we've blown that off the front page and its 1929 again.
who does better when people are fretting about money ?
I'm sure you'll recall that the dems had the votes to pass this thing last week and yet they didn't. I'm thinking that they needed to stretch this out as long as possible to help the messiah.
not only will they sell the middle east down sewer
not only will they risk American soldiers by attempting to delay reductions in numbers
they're happy to risk a depression just to elect FDR II.
I need a drink....
We are no where near a depression. We aren't even in a recession.
Don't repeat democratic/uh-bam-uh talking points. It does no one any good.
Its a Bush talking point but semantics aside, McCain needs to find a way to make lemonade out of this thing and soon.
-
Some HR final vote: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml
Haha, Nancy. Of course, my dolt Congressman voted for this. I hope he pays with his seat.
777 point fall today is not the same as a 777 point fall in 1987. Black Monday had a 1 day drop of 24%, today's was about 6.5%.
As I said, let the correction happen....just as it did in the housing sector. I'm a long term investor in housing and still haven't seen a bottom (nationally) although some states have bottomed out. Buckle up and hold on.
That's right, today was only the bigggest drop in absolute numbers. You sound as if you don't want a bailout at all, for this to be handled by the free market, but I may misunderstood - I think this bill was a choice between big Obamite socialism and economic chaos, the latter wins AFAIC.
I don't like the bail-out the way it was presented. They'll have to come up with a better plan...one that doesn't leave the taxpayers holding the bag.
I prefer the free market settling this on their own. Just as BofA bought out Lehman Brothers, Citicorp buying out Wachovia...and the many other who came in and aquired mis-managed companies at a sale price. This week and probably next week, the market will be very volatile...but as soon as "the bottom" is reached...it's a great opportunity to buy.
My big question now is....where will the investors go?
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:cheersmate: to the House, and :cheersmate: for more opportunities to buy stocks on the cheap!
+1 I took a beating when the housing market crashed...time for everyone else to follow in line. The correction will happen, might as well get it over with now and not postpone it for 3 years. Let the correction HAPPEN. It's not my place or the gov't's place to bail out bad investments.
H5.
I concur.
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I think this whole situation is analogous of the 1970s to mid 1980s. There were many banks that failed, especially the saving and loans sector. Also, companies were asking for bailouts, which they got. Also, oil prices were high and they peaked in 1980 because of the Iranian Hostage Crisis and ongoing conflicts in the Middle East. Also, terrorism was a huge problem in war torn Lebanon. 241 American Marines were killed in a series of terrorist attack at a Beirut barrack on October 23, 1983, which killed 58 French soldiers and 6 civilians. Oil prices dropped in 1986. The 1929 Stock Market crash marks the start of the Great Depression, except there were economic problems brewing in the Roaring 20's. 1929 Stock Market Crash symbolizes the start of the Great Depression, but it was brewing before 1929. The 1920s was seen as a prosperous decade, yes the decade of "flapper girls" and Ford Model T. However, farmers were suffering in the 1920s, who were the backbone of the economy. I see this economy problem kinda starting the 1990s.
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Good day for capitalism, even though the market looks dim. I guess it could be time to buy some low price stock. I'm not worried about it. The market usually fixes itself as long as the "gub'mint" doesn't screw with it too much.
As far as the bailout bill... well, it should have never come to light. Whatever happened to watching your own ass and not living beyond your means or being a loan officer and giving a person with less than decent credit the money?