Repeat after me, proglodytes...

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

DEATH

PANELS

Say it!

Purveyor (13,310 posts)

Sebelius: I Can’t Step Into Girl’s Transplant Case (When Other Children Are Just As Sick.)
 
PHILADELPHIA (CBS/AP) — The U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services says she doesn’t want to intervene in transplant decisions about a dying Pennsylvania girl when other children are just as sick.

Kathleen Sebelius says medical experts should make those decisions.

But relatives of 10-year-old Sarah Murnaghan say they want the policy changed for all children awaiting a lung transplant, not just Sarah.

Sarah’s aunt Sharon Ruddock says older children should be eligible for adult lungs because so few pediatric lungs are available.

She says that would add just 20 children to the 1,600 people on the adult waiting list.

MORE...

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/06/04/sebelius-i-cant-step-into-girls-transplant-case/

PennsylvaniaMatt (633 posts)

2. This must be gut wrenching for Sec. Sebelius...
 
I know there has been a lot of pressure on her, but after her comments today, I understand her point. It is pretty grotesque if she is picking and choosing who lives and dies.

DEATH PANELS

Psephos (6,883 posts)

12. I have remarkably less concern for Sibelius than for the child.
 
As well as for additional children in the future whose fates will be determined by bureaucratic adherence to a rule rather than individual assessment by a caring human.

DEATH PANELS

nobodyspecial (2,046 posts)

13. And if that was the case

we would soon have the rich gaming the system because individual assessments would end up favoring rich donors who could build a hospital wing.

FASCIST DEATH PANELS

Maybe her parents want to start a Tea Party group.

Puzzledtraveller (2,048 posts)

17. I made a comment in another thread
 
basically that though we can have good governance, we must not forget that government doesn't feel, it doesn't have sympathy, or empathy. That is not to say it can't do good things but we place or project a humanity on something that isn't. Just like some want to do on corporations.

DEATH PANELS

liberal_at_heart (3,750 posts)

26. but who gets the lungs? If you make lungs available, who gets it? There are lots of sick
 
Last edited Wed Jun 5, 2013, 06:46 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

children right now who are dying waiting for lungs. As heart wrenching as it is, does she deserve lungs more because she was able to get on tv than a child who is also dying but did not make it onto tv? There is no good answer to this problem. I am glad they are reviewing the rule. It may not come in time for this little girl and that is truly sad. My heart breaks for her parents.

Or if you allowed people to decide based on a free market it would be expensive but the profit would allow for better research and development as usually happens when fascists don't meddle.

Warren DeMontague (46,774 posts)

28. It seems like there are no good answers here. That said, when you're talking about saving a child's

Life, moving heaven and earth should be the default course of action.

I dont think there are any bad guys here, except the disease. Heartbreaking.

There is a good answer:

Get your fascist hands off of my personal decisions.

Shrike47 (503 posts)

29. I have to agree with Sibelius about her role.
 
She shouldn't change or bend rules for one person. She will then be asked to change or bend rules for every person.

One thing that would help would be to focus on getting more people to donate organs. If the demand didn't exceed supply, people wouldn't be fighting each other over their place in line.

IT SHOULDN'T BE A RULE -- PERIOD.

It's not your ****ing business to set rules on who gets treated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022945783

[thundley4]

Warren DeMontague (46,774 posts)

28. It seems like there are no good answers here. That said, when you're talking about saving a child's

Life, moving heaven and earth should be the default course of action.

I dont think there are any bad guys here, except the disease. Heartbreaking.

What a joke coming from people that think murdering a child pre birth is fine and dandy, and murdering them post birth is okay if they survived the abortion.   **** them all, they have no right to judge Sebelius in this matter.

[Cameljoe]

ok i dont post here much but i am really torn on this as someone who has received a liver transplant.

There are rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant.  Should i have sued because someone may have been listed in two regions and i could not afford that so i may have missed out on a liver earlier. 

Does this open the door for people to sue to move up the list in other ways ..

More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now .. 

[thundley4]

ok i dont post here much but i am really torn on this as someone who has received a liver transplant.

There are rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant.  Should i have sued because someone may have been listed in two regions and i could not afford that so i may have missed out on a liver earlier. 

Does this open the door for people to sue to move up the list in other ways ..

More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now .. 

This case was based on age discrimination .  At the time those rules were put in place, the likelihood of a child surviving a transplant from an adult lung were very low.  The techniques have improved way beyond that, so the rule is outdated.

That is a different situation than what you are saying. If the little girl was two years older, the this case would have never arisen.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

ok i dont post here much but i am really torn on this as someone who has received a liver transplant.

There are rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant.  Should i have sued because someone may have been listed in two regions and i could not afford that so i may have missed out on a liver earlier. 

Does this open the door for people to sue to move up the list in other ways ..

More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now ..

I think the last people to make rules on this should be the government.

They have proven themselves too corrupt and incompetent.

[Big Dog]

ok i dont post here much but i am really torn on this as someone who has received a liver transplant.

There are rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant.  Should i have sued because someone may have been listed in two regions and i could not afford that so i may have missed out on a liver earlier. 

Does this open the door for people to sue to move up the list in other ways ..

More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now .. 

Congratulations on your transplant.

1. You said "rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant". How do you define "fair"?

The most common causes of liver failure are cirrhosis or hepatitis related to chronic alcohol abuse. The most common cause of  lung failure is COPD related to cigarette smoking (tobacco abuse). The most common cause of kidney failure is Type II diabetes related to high-carbohydrate diet (chronic food abuse).

What is the ethical basis for "fairness" in the current system, in which a person who deliberately damaged his own body gets replacement parts ahead of someone whose organ failure is not related to the natural consequences of self-abuse?

2. You also said, "More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now .." What is the ethical basis of this statement, that non-donors "need" to donate their organs?

[Karin]

I think the last people to make rules on this should be the government.

They have proven themselves too corrupt and incompetent.

Agree 100%.  The operative word being corrupt.  They have proven that they play favorites. 

[Wineslob]

But Obamacare will make this all so much better.................as long as you have/can afford something better than the Bronze Plan............right?

[diesel driver]

But Obamacare will make this all so much better.................as long as you have/can afford something better than the Bronze Plan............right?

Before these idiots at HHS get done f'n with healthcare, we won't be able to afford their Aluminum Plan. 

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

But Obamacare will make this all so much better.................as long as you have/can afford something better than the Bronze Plan............right?

And are not affiliated with any politically dissenting group.

[BlueStateSaint]

Before these idiots at HHS get done f'n with healthcare, we won't be able to afford their Aluminum Foil Plan.  

That's more like it.

[Cameljoe]

1. You said "rules in place to make things fair to everyone who is waiting for a transplant". How do you define "fair"?

The most common causes of liver failure are cirrhosis or hepatitis related to chronic alcohol abuse. The most common cause of  lung failure is COPD related to cigarette smoking (tobacco abuse). The most common cause of kidney failure is Type II diabetes related to high-carbohydrate diet (chronic food abuse).

What is the ethical basis for "fairness" in the current system, in which a person who deliberately damaged his own body gets replacement parts ahead of someone whose organ failure is not related to the natural consequences of self-abuse?

2. You also said, "More people need to sign up for organ donation 118k people are waiting for a organ right now .." What is the ethical basis of this statement, that non-donors "need" to donate their organs?

I believe it is fair because of the fact that numbers and lab work are used to figure out someone's place on the list. In my case my mother and I both had transplant due to autoimmune reasons out bodies just decided it didnt like our livers. The meld score is used to give each person a number. Its based on 3 different blood test so someone can be showing more symptoms but be lower on the list than someone because of the way each person responds to liver disease.

I do not see an ethical issue with people signing up to be a organ donor because 118k people are waiting. I read somewhere and i cant find the proof right now that most people signup to be a organ donor when they get their drivers license but do not inform the family of their choice. Thus once they pass the family says no.

I am not saying to force people to sign up to be a organ donor. But from my experience ( i usually run a booth at local arts fairs) giving out information and talking to people that most just did not know how to sign up or did not think about it.  

[Dori]

The girls parents were supposed to be on Hannity last night, but had to rush back to the hospital.  The little girl has taken a turn for the worse. 

To get on the transplant list, patients' conditions are graded between 1-100.  The higher the grade, the higher the patient moves up the list.  Last night the little girls' numbers were 78.  (This was on FOX earlier).

[AllosaursRus]

What a joke coming from people that think murdering a child pre birth is fine and dandy, and murdering them post birth is okay if they survived the abortion.   **** them all, they have no right to judge Sebelius in this matter.

DUmpter DIvers never even notice their own hypocrisy. They're so blind, they can't find their ass with both hands in the midday sun!

Anyone of these morons that don't think ObamaSama, the messiah, didn't orchestrate this, is DUmber than the lead in my pencil! He's the ****in' president for cripes sake! If he didn't know, then he has to be the most useless president in history................oh wait........

How proud you DUm Wits must be!

[BattleHymn]

How long before we see an increase in the fatality rate of people who are listed as both organ donors on their driver's license, and registered republicans?

[DefiantSix]

How long before we see an increase in the fatality rate of people who are listed as both organ donors on their driver's license, and registered republicans?

Drone strike in 3... 2... 1...

[BlueStateSaint]

How long before we see an increase in the fatality rate of people who are listed as both organ donors on their driver's license, and registered republicans?

3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

[AllosaursRus]

3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

Bring it! The worst nightmare of O'bummer and his minions is if we decide we've had enough!

They'll learn why we have a Second Amendment.

[Big Dog]

I believe it is fair because of the fact that numbers and lab work are used to figure out someone's place on the list. In my case my mother and I both had transplant due to autoimmune reasons out bodies just decided it didnt like our livers. The meld score is used to give each person a number. Its based on 3 different blood test so someone can be showing more symptoms but be lower on the list than someone because of the way each person responds to liver disease.

You have not defined "fair", nor have you stated why "fairness" is the Federal government's business with regard to organ transplants. Why do you believe  I  should not decide who receives my liver?

I do not see an ethical issue with people signing up to be a organ donor because 118k people are waiting. I read somewhere and i cant find the proof right now that most people signup to be a organ donor when they get their drivers license but do not inform the family of their choice. Thus once they pass the family says no.

Voluntary organ donation is a noble thing, but that's not what we're talking about here. You said "More people need to sign up for organ donation", which is stating an obligation.

I am not saying to force people to sign up to be a organ donor.

No, you're not. By using the phrase "(they) need to", you are stating a belief that others are obliged to do something you want. "Forced to" and "obliged to" are different things. See the difference?

[Cameljoe]

The reason i believe it is fair is because unos does not know the name of person they are assigning the organ to. They call the hospital that the number belongs to and then the hospital calls the patient. (this is what my transplant clinic told me )

I am not saying you cant decide who your liver goes to. Many hospitals do live transplants. Many can take a part of someones liver , or the whole kidney and transplant it into someone else.

I am talking about Voluntary organ donation .. The facts are many people sign up to be donors and then the family states no once someone passes. my view is that if someone signs up to be an organ donor then the family should respect that .

I admit i am too close to this subject. and I admit that some of the words i may have used point to a obligation. But when it comes down to it I belive that people do not think about organ donation they just see a box to check to recieve money off the cost of their license. If that is all they are doing it for then that is a huge problem to me .

just my thoughts

[obumazombie]

I have often thought about signing up to be an organ donor. When I think about such things I like to think I am very logical about my decision process. But in this instance I have an irrational fear that if I sign up that I will somehow jinx myself into an unnaturally early demise. This is much more of an emotional reaction which I am very critical of when I see the same behavior in others.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

The reason i believe it is fair is because unos does not know the name of person they are assigning the organ to. They call the hospital that the number belongs to and then the hospital calls the patient. (this is what my transplant clinic told me )

Be that as it may, that isn't "fair" that's just the system employed.

As BD was saying, "fair" is not a thing that can be defined by government bureaucrats, nor should we ever allow them to try. We already allow them to decide what is our isn't speech to be taxed and we've seen how nasty and vile they can be against those who meet the displeasure of their masters. Then there is the entire general incompetence issue.

I am talking about Voluntary organ donation .. The facts are many people sign up to be donors and then the family states no once someone passes. my view is that if someone signs up to be an organ donor then the family should respect that.

Granted. Sad but true.

I admit i am too close to this subject. and I admit that some of the words i may have used point to a obligation. But when it comes down to it I belive that people do not think about organ donation they just see a box to check to recieve money off the cost of their license. If that is all they are doing it for then that is a huge problem to me .

I won't begrudge you for being "too close to the subject." You should always look-out for your best interests. All we are saying is that the government never has your best interest at heart. The government serves only the government even if those in a given agency feel noble minded. At the end of the day they adhere only to self-sustaining rules of bureaucracy and the presumed cause of their employment will always take a backseat.

[Cameljoe]

Oh i agree , I am one for smaller govt. 

and thanks for the discussion..  hopefully i will post more

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

hopefully i will post more

I concur, though we're still still entitled to give you n00b noogies.

[Big Dog]

Be that as it may, that isn't "fair" that's just the system employed.

As BD was saying, "fair" is not a thing that can be defined by government bureaucrats, nor should we ever allow them to try. We already allow them to decide what is our isn't speech to be taxed and we've seen how nasty and vile they can be against those who meet the displeasure of their masters. Then there is the entire general incompetence issue.

Granted. Sad but true.
 

I won't begrudge you for being "too close to the subject." You should always look-out for your best interests. All we are saying is that the government never has your best interest at heart. The government serves only the government even if those in a given agency feel noble minded. At the end of the day they adhere only to self-sustaining rules of bureaucracy and the presumed cause of their employment will always take a backseat.

Well said. Hi5.