How many gun deaths are acceptable?

[formerlurker]

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:24 AM

Bgno64 (329 posts)

How many gun deaths are acceptable?
Gil Smart at Smart Remarks:

Let's take the lesser of the two figures — the 11,400 gun deaths in a single year recorded by Slate.

Is that an acceptable figure?

If not, what is?

How much carnage is this society, this nation willing to tolerate, given that our propensity for guns ensures carnage? How many deaths are "too many"? Or is any number, however large, acceptable?

Is the right to own a gun so precious that it trumps any number of deaths?

And are we, as a society, required to accept all these deaths because attempting to do anything about them, to reduce these numbers, runs the risk of infringing upon the Second Amendment?

We don't often frame the gun debate this way, but we should. Because the reality is that with rights come responsibilities, but the responsibility inherent in gun ownership falls not just on the gun owners themselves — but on others, those whose lives are touched by gun violence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101681926

Response to Bgno64 (Original post)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:31 AM

Star Member pipoman (11,524 posts)
1. How many of the 11k

Would likely occur without guns? To pretend that the fantasy of a country without guns would eliminate 11k deaths annually is just that, a fantasy. ..imo

You would think that should be sufficient to shut the thread down, and it may do just that.  Somehow I doubt it though.

[Mr Mannn]

In Chicago gun related murders are just fine with the democrats there as long as it stays in the inner city.

Mayor Rahm does nothing about the gang violence, and he knows it will never haunt him in the press if he decides to run for president.

Since the worst cities for gun related deaths are all democrat, then perhaps this is the time for democrats to shine and show the world they are more interested in stamping out crime than in disarming law abiding citizens.

[DUmpsterDiver]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101681926
You would think that should be sufficient to shut the thread down, and it may do just that.  Somehow I doubt it though.

The acceptable gun deaths are all the ones where the bad guys and thugs get shot.  All the rest are unfortunate and should motivate the good guys to shoot more bad guys and thugs.

[dutch508]

Gun Murders have continued to go down (see FBI crime stats)

year - total murders - gun murders
2008 - 14,225 - 9,528
2009 - 13,752 - 9,199
2010 - 13,164 - 8,874
2011 - 12,795 - 8,653
2012 - 12,785 - 8,852

of those 8,852 murders in 2012 3,172 white victems were murdered by 2,630 white offenders, 448 black offenders, 33 other races, and 61 unknowns.

2,695 black victems were murdered by 193 white offenders, 2447 black offenders, 9 other races, and 46 unknown. of those murders of blacks by blacks 2,385 were done by males.

As of January 4, 2014, the United States has a total resident population of 317,400,000
White population - 223,553,265 - 72.4 % ( just 1 in 80,000 committed murder in 2012)
African American population - 38,929,319 - 12.6 % (just under 1 in 10,000  committed a murder in 2012)

You are 8 times more likely to be murdered by a black male than a white male...

 

[MrsSmith]

The more good guys carry guns, the fewer unjustified gun deaths there will be.

[dutch508]

So, in reading that article it states that 11,500 gun deaths occured in 2013, although murder stats have been going down every years for the last serveral years. What the ****, over?

Seems like the article includes suicides (and the author says:
"Suicides, it turns out, are this project's enormous blind spot," wrote Slate's Dan Kois. "Most every homicide makes the local paper. ... Accidental shootings are usually reported upon. .... But suicides are mostly invisible. And the fact is that suicides make up 60 percent or more of all deaths by gun in America."

SO... 60% of 11,500 deaths are 6,900 possible suicides in 2013!

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) collects data about mortality in the U.S., including deaths by suicide. In 2010 (the most recent year for which data are available), 38,364 suicides were reported, making suicide the 10th leading cause of death for Americans
 19,392 suicides in 2010 by firearm... 50.5%... whoah... it took me five minutes of searching to find numbers from the FBI and the CDC that are totally differnt than the OP's post! No suprise.

BUT: the FI states there were only 8,852 murders in the US in 2013 by firearm!

11,500 - 8,852 = 2,648... that's all other firearm deaths in the US! BUT BUT BUT...

6,900 possible suicides by gun + 8,852 murders by gun = 15,752 deaths by gun in 2013... if you use the OP's loose math.

the FBI states that 14,661 murders and nonneglegent manslaughters occured in 2012. That's not gun murders... that's all murders.

Did the OP lie? Well, yeah... do we have to accept it?

[jukin]

Let's assume that it is 15,000 people killed by guns. There were over 6 million people thrown off their insurance due to Obama Care. Obama said that was a very tiny percentage of Americans and to get over it for the good of the law of the land. The gun deaths are 400 times fewer for the REAL law of the land, The Constitution. Clearly the DUchebags should just get over it.

[DumbAss Tanker]

About everything you could say about guns, you could say about motorcycles.  Liberals hate freedom, they just view guns as a more direct problem for their authoritarian agenda. 

And any stat about 'Gun deaths' without any other differentiation is going to include all suicides, justified defensive shootings of home invaders and other scum, and all police shootings, so even totally abolishing legal private ownership of guns is not going to come anywhere near eliminating 11,000 deaths by direct crime and mischance per year (I note that the DOJ is infamous for playing games with the characterizations of homicides in their stats, so I am somewhat reluctant to take that 8K figure for gun murders entirely at face value).

[FlippyDoo]

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 08:24 AM

Bgno64 (329 posts)

How many gun deaths are acceptable?

I didn't have time to read the entire post. Just the first sentence which I suppose summarizes the issue. I'll respond to the post based on the summation.

As guns are not really alive, they can not really die so I must assume that you are using the term "gun deaths" figuratively and are actually referring to guns that have become inoperable and no longer function.

With proper care and maintenance no gun really has to die. A gun's biggest fear should be the policy of the liberal. If the liberals were to get their way the gun deaths would be wide spread. The only guns to survive would be those owned by limo liberals and criminals.

[JohnnyReb]

I didn't have time to read the entire post. Just the first sentence which I suppose summarizes the issue. I'll respond to the post based on the summation.

As guns are not really alive, they can not really die so I must assume that you are using the term "gun deaths" figuratively and are actually referring to guns that have become inoperable and no longer function.

With proper care and maintenance no gun really has to die. A gun's biggest fear should be the policy of the liberal. If the liberals were to get their way the gun deaths would be wide spread. The only guns to survive would be those owned by limo liberals and criminals.

...But I did have 4 kidnapped a few years ago. 2 I bought while in high school and 2 were my dads....I'd like to shoot the kidnapper.

I don't think they would be acceptable or not but I can name a few that might help things.....a lot.

435 in that building.

100 in that other building.

1 or more in that big white house.

9 over yonder in that fine building.

?????? unknown number on death row.

????? unknown number that just need killing.

Now who have I left out.....oh, and Bill Ayers.

That'll do for starters.

I'm joking of course but some times I think that is what it will take to straighten this country out.

[Carl]

Gun Murders have continued to go down (see FBI crime stats)

year - total murders - gun murders
2008 - 14,225 - 9,528
2009 - 13,752 - 9,199
2010 - 13,164 - 8,874
2011 - 12,795 - 8,653
2012 - 12,785 - 8,852

of those 8,852 murders in 2012 3,172 white victems were murdered by 2,630 white offenders, 448 black offenders, 33 other races, and 61 unknowns.

2,695 black victems were murdered by 193 white offenders, 2447 black offenders, 9 other races, and 46 unknown. of those murders of blacks by blacks 2,385 were done by males.

As of January 4, 2014, the United States has a total resident population of 317,400,000
White population - 223,553,265 - 72.4 % ( just 1 in 80,000 committed murder in 2012)
African American population - 38,929,319 - 12.6 % (just under 1 in 10,000  committed a murder in 2012)

You are 8 times more likely to be murdered by a black male than a white male...

 

Out of those my guess is that over 90% were as of the laws today already illegally possessed.

[Purple Sage]

Out of those my guess is that over 90% were as of the laws today already illegally possessed.

^5  Without a doubt.

[GOBUCKS]

How many gun deaths are acceptable?

Of the ones I read about in the newspaper or see described on TV, the vast majority are acceptable.

In fact, most of them are desirable.

[Bad Dog]

I love how they get all fluffed up about "gun" suicides and then demand end of life choice.

[CollectivismMustDie]

Well, I got to hand it to you, DUmmie, at  least you're posing the question, in spite of yourself, to the right people:



I don't necessarily buy the snark above the images, but the maps speak for themselves.

CMD

[Big Dog]

Well, I got to hand it to you, DUmmie, at  least you're posing the question, in spite of yourself, to the right people:



I don't necessarily buy the snark above the images, but the maps speak for themselves.

CMD

Which part do you disagree with?

[freedumb2003b]

I didn't have time to read the entire post. Just the first sentence which I suppose summarizes the issue. I'll respond to the post based on the summation.

As guns are not really alive, they can not really die so I must assume that you are using the term "gun deaths" figuratively and are actually referring to guns that have become inoperable and no longer function.

With proper care and maintenance no gun really has to die. A gun's biggest fear should be the policy of the liberal. If the liberals were to get their way the gun deaths would be wide spread. The only guns to survive would be those owned by limo liberals and criminals.

A gun is a terrible thing to waste...

[freedumb2003b]

Which part do you disagree with?

Probably the "logic" part.

[Skul]

How many gun deaths are acceptable?

As many as needed to get rid of the thugs.
They can do the first fifty percent, we'll take care of the rest.
Unless of course, the remaining fifty percent take care of fifty percent of the remaining.
Repeat as needed.
I suppose if we wait long enough, just one might just do the trick.

[CollectivismMustDie]

Which part do you disagree with?

The "ban democrats from owning guns" part.

Not because I hold democrats in any special regard mind you, but because I believe that rules government is supposed to follow...should be followed.

An exception made in the case of enemies or people we disagree with, soon becomes an exception applied to us.

CMD

 

[Airwolf]

With the exception of innocent victims being killed by thugs.rapist and the plain crazy there are any number of justified killings every day in the US. You want to look at the number of innocent people killed by guns that shouldn't happen then look at any place here that has the most strict gun control laws or any country outside of the U.S> and then you will see the number of unacceptable deaths that you anti-gun nuts are looking for.

[Big Dog]

The "ban democrats from owning guns" part.

Not because I hold democrats in any special regard mind you, but because I believe that rules government is supposed to follow...should be followed.

An exception made in the case of enemies or people we disagree with, soon becomes an exception applied to us.

CMD

You'll get no argument from me.

I expect you'd get no argument from any of the liberty-loving people here at the Cave - if we were having a serious discussion.

[thundley4]

In 2012 there were 34,000 needless deaths. Congress could pass one law and eliminate probably 99% of those needless deaths. 

Why aren't people clamoring for congress to take action and pass one simple law?

They just need to pass a law mandating a 5mph speed limit on all roads. 34,000 people dead in car accidents, 3X the number of gun deaths.

[biersmythe]

The acceptable gun deaths are all the ones where the bad guys and thugs and demonrats get shot.  All the rest are unfortunate and should motivate the good guys to shoot more bad guys, demonrats and thugs.

Fixed it for ya.

[CollectivismMustDie]

You'll get no argument from me.

I expect you'd get no argument from any of the liberty-loving people here at the Cave - if we were having a serious discussion.

Like I was telling Coach, other than the 11-12 years I spend on DU arguing with the anti-gun loons, I had never been much of a messageboard guy. Its a hard thing to adjust to in some ways at times...being around people who say they love liberty and mean it...not because I don't love liberty, but because in my life and travels, I've met so few that really do.

Thus, I forget myself and my surroundings, at times. But I'm learning...

CMD