Another Civil War in the United States?

[Right and Proud]

Actually, I'm a guy, which means I worry about the wife - who is confined to a wheelchair after a head-on wreck with a drunk driver just after our youngest was born - too.

She can't just run and hide with me if there's violent civil upheaval, so I want to be as well-informed as possible about what might happen, and what indications to watch out for.

Just wanted to clear that gender thing up.

Carry on.

CLARIFICATION: She can't run and hide, and I'm not going to leave her to go hide, myself, if the unthinkable happens in this country.  So I have to stand my ground at our little farm, and hope our sons can be there standing beside me.  Luckily, it's not within easy walking distance of the large cities just over the horizon, and my neighbors - all good people - feel pretty much the same way I do about liberals.

[Right and Proud]

Listen, princess, here's YOUR post:

Note the bolded sentences. If the "civil war" YOU are talking about is different than the accepted definition most Americans have, based on a real war that happened and was called (surprise, surprise!) THE CIVIL WAR, then YOU have to explain what you mean. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the Civil War understands it was a ****ing war, not just a "difference of opinion" with OWS on one side of a park and the Tea Party on another.

Next is your question about whether it could be "averted if some states secede". Now, I took that sentence literally. Doesn't "some states secede" mean "some states secede" or do you have a different definition than those of us using a dictionary? As for WHICH states, I made the leap (perhaps it's too big of a jump for someone who obviously is such a mental tampon they can't even remember what their whole thread was about) of using the scenario most people think of when they talk about this. Usually, people refer to the red/blue state map (kinda like the one in your avatar, except states instead of counties). When one looks at that map, one notices both coasts are rather blue, whereas the middle of the country is red. Even when DUmmies talk about dividing the country they talk about it like this. Thus, if one is working out a way for "peaceful secession" (as if), it would be practical to keep the majority of left/right where they are, correct? It would certainly be damned ridiculous to secede by counties.

And then there's your third point about having 4 sons who are "soldier-age". Why the hell would you worry about that if you weren't talking about some kind of war they would be fighting in? Do you think one or other of the new nations would recruit "soldier-age" men & women to serve in the "moving van brigade" and are worried they would hurt their back or drop a piano on their foot?

Bitch slap for being so ****ing stupid you didn't even reread your OP before replying. Idiot!

Cindie

I've been giving this some thought before responding.

I started this thread because I have concerns about the extreme political division in the U.S. today.  And I asked questions - questions - of other conservatives who are up on the current situation because I wanted to get the views of other Americans who are as concerned about the Republic as I am.

Some responses were encouraging, some were not, but I believe all of them were honest, informed opinions from the kind of people I respect: non-leftists.

If my response to your post seemed unnecessarily argumentative or petty and offensive in any way, I apologize. I did not mean to give offense.

I just wanted to point out that - based on my three decades of study of the American Civil War of the 1860s as a CW buff and not any kind of professional historian - that any impending social violence in this country will not be like the original American civil war between the United States and the Confederate States.  So - I believe - very little about that war will apply to any new reality.

We agree on many, many things - if not just about everything - so I hope we can peacefully move past this.

[Conservative Libertarian]

The ideological divide also somewhat correlates with the division between urbanites and ruralites (and small towns). Liberals tend to collect in cities while Conservatives tend to live rual areas and small towns. All that one needs to do is look at the red/blue county-by-county map to see that. While there are a few exceptions to this on that map, the counties with large cities are usually blue and while everywhere else is red.

So, if there is a civil war it would be between cities and rural/small town areas.

[Rebel]

Damn, a civil war thread and you guys didn't invite me? 

[Eupher]

Damn, a civil war thread and you guys didn't invite me? 

Well, we knew you'd be arguing about football and such, but would be along directly. Didja bring the f'n AMMO we asked you to get?

[Rebel]

Well, we knew you'd be arguing about football and such, but would be along directly. Didja bring the f'n AMMO we asked you to get?

Football is the opiate that allows me to forget, if for one minute, how utterly f'n stupid this nation has become and how this nation is soon to be "The Country Formerly Known as".

[Eupher]

Football is the opiate that allows me to forget, if for one minute, how utterly f'n stupid this nation has become and how this nation is soon to be "The Country Formerly Known as".

There are isolated pockets of sanity here and there, mostly in flyover country, but yeah, it's hard to stay optimistic when so many retards actually cannot see the political elite class for what it is - a collective ticket to implosion from within.

[Rebel]

There are isolated pockets of sanity here and there, mostly in flyover country, but yeah, it's hard to stay optimistic when so many retards actually cannot see the political elite class for what it is - a collective ticket to implosion from within.

I could forgive the first term for various reasons, but a second? That jackass actually got the majority vote for a second damn term? We're a nation of parasites now. Everyone votes for what they can get. People like me, who just wants to be left the hell alone and am willing to barter my labor for currency like a dollar bill, are outnumbered. These people don't want to barter shit. ...unless it's your labor.

[Mike220]

These people don't want to barter shit. ...unless it's your labor.

I seem to remember a term for that which escapes me at the moment...

[Eupher]

I could forgive the first term for various reasons, but a second? That jackass actually got the majority vote for a second damn term? We're a nation of parasites now. Everyone votes for what they can get. People like me, who just wants to be left the hell alone and am willing to barter my labor for currency like a dollar bill, are outnumbered. These people don't want to barter shit. ...unless it's your labor.

Keep the rant coming, Reb, because football can take you only so far. 

[XYiftah]

China....

They would be stretched on lift if invading Taiwan.  Their navy would be sitting on the bottom as soon as it gets underway.

You are talking 'current' conditions and you are correct as of now.  However, the poster that started all of this said if "The United States Was Severely Weakened"  and if that occurs then some foreign power might intervene.

The sad truth is that no country can have a first rate military machine if said country has a poor economy.  Tragically our economy is on the verge of collapse and when that happens the collapse of our military prowess will not be far behind.  It is well known this administration is anti-military and just itching to cut the defense budget. 

I see a lot of posts on this that are right on target but then many of them seem to get fragmented and confused.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/default.asp

[Big Dog]

I see a lot of posts on this that are right on target but then many of them seem to get fragmented and confused.

So, are you trying to say that we are rambling?

You are talking 'current' conditions and you are correct as of now.  However, the poster that started all of this said if "The United States Was Severely Weakened"  and if that occurs then some foreign power might intervene.

"Intervene" is the wrong word. Substitute "invade".

[XYiftah]

So, are you trying to say that we are rambling?

"Intervene" is the wrong word. Substitute "invade".

What I see is that many when responding to a post seem to omit or skip over what the poster they are responding to actually said.  Using the quote feature should prevent that.

Intervene, Invade, Tomatoe or Tahmahto

[wasp69]

Intervene, Invade, Tomatoe or Tahmahto

Smilin' Jack/XYiftah, sock puppet/poser...  All samey-same.

[wasp69]

You are talking 'current' conditions and you are correct as of now.  However, the poster that started all of this said if "The United States Was Severely Weakened"  and if that occurs then some foreign power might intervene.

Couldn't let it go, could you, "Jack"?

[Dori]

Most conservatives let liberals beat them up over the issue of Southern Slavery.  Most understand very little about that institution.  We should never attempt to judge another people that lived in different times by the same moral standards that are acceptable now.  Slavery was a legal institution and had been for thousands of years. 

I thank The Lord that my ancestors were brought to America.  We became civilized,educated and Christians.  If my ancestors had not been brought over here-I shudder to think what would have happened to them in Africa.
All kinds of people form judgements on this without knowing the least about it.  In fact without even giving it much thought.  They just accept what is programmed into their minds by the liberal media and Public Schools.

My great, great Grandfather was a slave and the family has passed down a lot of information about all that and it was not like it has been made out to be.  

For the most part it was very humane and the Plantation Owners helped my family and others tremendously even after Slavery was made illegal.

  Most do not understand that when Mr. Lincoln ended slavery he nor the Federal Government made any provisions for the former Slaves.  What did they think the newly freed slaves would do or where they would go?  Obviously they did not care.  Thanks to their former master my family members survived.

If anyone in the world is or has ever been a racist, Mr. Lincoln must definitely be included in that number.  He  wanted to send the slaves back to Africa  even before the commencement of the War.  He left many writings exposising his racist beliefs.  Yet no figure in American History is more lauded or had more streets and towns named after him and he continues to be a Hero to this day.

No Man is more responsible for that conflagration than Mr. Lincoln.

Great Post   

Have any of your family's experiences during slavery and afterwards been publicized?  My favorite book of all time is "Jubilee".  A woman wrote it about the stories her grandmother told her during the Civil War era.

http://www.amazon.com/Jubilee-Margaret-Walker-Alexander/dp/0395924952

[wasp69]

Great Post   

Have any of your family's experiences during slavery and afterwards been publicized?  My favorite book of all time is "Jubilee".  A woman wrote it about the stories her grandmother told her during the Civil War era.

http://www.amazon.com/Jubilee-Margaret-Walker-Alexander/dp/0395924952

Dori, this is Smilin' Jack's sock puppet, don't get played.

[Big Dog]

Intervene, Invade, Tomatoe or Tahmahto

Do tell. I have always been under the impression that invading a sovereign country was a big deal, bigger than the meaning of "intervention".

Your 82nd Airborne avatar intrigues me. When were you in? We have several Veterans of the 82nd here, perhaps you can reconnect with an old Army buddy.

[Right and Proud]

The ideological divide also somewhat correlates with the division between urbanites and ruralites (and small towns). Liberals tend to collect in cities while Conservatives tend to live rual areas and small towns. All that one needs to do is look at the red/blue county-by-county map to see that. While there are a few exceptions to this on that map, the counties with large cities are usually blue and while everywhere else is red.

So, if there is a civil war it would be between cities and rural/small town areas.

I agree.  I often refer to liberals as HERD ANIMALS because of the way they tend to gather into large groups.  MAN, do they ever hate that!  But the population, and population density figures, prove it.  That's why I think they are so obsessed with the UN.  To them, a village is more desirable than an individual farmstead; a town is more desirable than a village; a city is more desirable than a town...right on up to a world-wide government is more desirable than a national government.  It's as if they can't see themselves as individuals; only as members of the group.  The hive.  The herd.

And that's why they're the most vulnerable if any shooting war based on ideological division does break out in the U.S.; the big liberal cities are also where the big barbaric ghettos are located - and it's often said that civilization is never more than three or four missed meals away from complete breakdown.  Meals that, interestingly enough, come to them almost exclusively from the generally conservative rural places liberals hate so much.

You'd think - if they really were the intellectually superior elitists they portray themselves as being - they could figure all this out for themselves; but they haven't yet.



You can see that Fort Worth is not as densely populated as Dallas, which could be why FW is mostly conservative and Dallas is mostly liberal.  Also, Oklahoma City is a BIG city in square miles, but the population density is relatively small; and it's the red capital of the only completely red state.

[XYiftah]

Do tell. I have always been under the impression that invading a sovereign country was a big deal, bigger than the meaning of "intervention".

Your 82nd Airborne avatar intrigues me. When were you in? We have several Veterans of the 82nd here, perhaps you can reconnect with an old Army buddy.

Well it could be debated whether China would engage in a large scale invasion or a smaller scale intervention type scenario.  At this time the way I see it(of course none of us are prophets but some are better analytical type thinkers than others)would be on the smaller scale type intervention...perhaps followed later by a large scale invasion. 

Now I must emphasize this would only be possible if we are severely weakened...which may very well happen due to our economic problems.  Chinese are very intelligent people.  I do not think they will make such a move unless they are absolutely convinced it would succeed.

I was in the 508th...the infamous Red Devils.

[Big Dog]

I was in the 508th...the infamous Red Devils.

The 508th PIR? When? Which battalion, which company? You should know that I'm skeptical, based on your answer, and Stolen Valor claims are a banning offense here.

Well it could be debated whether China would engage in a large scale invasion or a smaller scale intervention type scenario.  At this time the way I see it(of course none of us are prophets but some are better analytical type thinkers than others)would be on the smaller scale type intervention...perhaps followed later by a large scale invasion. 

Now I must emphasize this would only be possible if we are severely weakened...which may very well happen due to our economic problems.  Chinese are very intelligent people.  I do not think they will make such a move unless they are absolutely convinced it would succeed.

So, you postulate that "intervention" is different from "invasion" only as a matter of scale. What is the basis of your belief in that position; upon what do you base the idea that a foreign military initiating any action in the United States is anything other than an invasion (i.e., an act of war)?

***

So, let's build this scenario.

1. The United States government.... does what? Collapses? What catalyst do you envision for this situation?
2. What happens to our military, economy, and infrastructure?
3. Based on #1, the People's Republic of China "intervenes" by invading the United States with a "smaller scale" military action. What is the goal of this "intervention" (which is not an invasion, in your scenario)?
4. What is the strategy of your Chinese "intervention" force, which would have a 51% or better chance of success?
5. What are the logistics of a Chinese air- and sea-lift to "intervene" on the North American continent?
6. Most importantly, what is there about your "weakened" United States that makes it an attractive target for the Chinese?

[XYiftah]

The 508th PIR? When? Which battalion, which company? You should know that I'm skeptical, based on your answer, and Stolen Valor claims are a banning offense here.

So, you postulate that "intervention" is different from "invasion" only as a matter of scale. What is the basis of your belief in that position; upon what do you base the idea that a foreign military initiating any action in the United States is anything other than an invasion (i.e., an act of war)?

***

So, let's build this scenario.

1. The United States government.... does what? Collapses? What catalyst do you envision for this situation?
2. What happens to our military, economy, and infrastructure?
3. Based on #1, the People's Republic of China "intervenes" by invading the United States with a "smaller scale" military action. What is the goal of this "intervention" (which is not an invasion, in your scenario)?
4. What is the strategy of your Chinese "intervention" force, which would have a 51% or better chance of success?
5. What are the logistics of a Chinese air- and sea-lift to "intervene" on the North American continent?
6. Most importantly, what is there about your "weakened" United States that makes it an attractive target for the Chinese?

You are beginning to piss me off.  Nevertheless....the 3rd Btn. Abn. Inf. Hq&Hq Co.

 Are you a vet?  Probably a lame ass leg.  Unless you were Airborne you will have no clue as to what I am talking about.

An intervention could be a large scale or a small scale operation. 

The scenario I envision would be a severely weakened America that is in chaos and different factions in the country are fighting each other....the Nation's Armed Services would no longer be functioning---at least in much of a co-hesive manner.  Most likely the Military would have broken apart and would join whatever faction they think would best serve their interests or allegiance.

I am not saying that the Chinese are the only ones that might be tempted to intervene....it could be another power or it could be a coalition of foreign powers.

Under such conditions I think any foreign power or powers that might choose to intervene would not have to do so with a large scale invasion...at least not at first.  Most likely they would send in their elite special forces and secure a certain area or areas....they would then access the situation across the nation and determine the best way to proceed...probably try and form an alliance with the strongest force in America to subjugate and dominate the nation as a whole.

In the scenario I envision America would no longer be  a Military Threat or considered to be a military threat by any foreign power.  Their goal I think would be to take advantage of the country in a economic sense...to seize our natural resources and most especially to be able to use our farmlands to feed their peoples.  They would treat the population here as human resources aka  cheap labor.  Actually the conditions for Americans under such a scenario would be akin to slavery.

We are all speculating here.  You should not expect any kind of agreement on such an issue.  While I may not disagree with someone elses or anyone elses opinions on such a future possibility that does not mean they are not entitled to engage in such speculations.

You come across as heavy handed and argumentative.  That may not be your intention-- that is just my opinion- I could be wrong.

[wasp69]

You are beginning to piss me off.  Nevertheless....the 3rd Btn. Abn. Inf. Hq&Hq Co.

Are you a vet?  Probably a lame ass leg.  Unless you were Airborne you will have no clue as to what I am talking about.

You come across as heavy handed and argumentative.  That may not be your intention-- that is just my opinion- I could be wrong.

 

[XYiftah]

So, are you trying to say that we are rambling?

"Intervene" is the wrong word. Substitute "invade".

Perhaps this will enlighten you....but as most know --anyone can lead a jackass to water but no one can make him drink.



What is the difference between invade and intervene?

English Language Questions


Best Answer

.

Intervene-stop by interfering in some way
Invade-trespass with an opposing aggressive force.

[XYiftah]

Hey big Dog--You can come out of the doghouse now.  Do not take it personal.  Most make mistakes now and then.  I have yet to be proved wrong though.