An Honest Conversation about Unions

[Karin]

Well, the DUmp's overseer must be unionized, because he's apparently sleeping on the job.  There's some significant wandering off of the plantation going on here. 

Wed Dec 12, 2012, 06:57 AM
Lesleymo (232 posts)

Union workers who hate unions. I don't get it.
I have a friend who was a union worker for Ford Motor Company his entire life. He has a high-school education. He made a good living, working lots of overtime to take advantage of the higher pay rate.

This same friend hates unions with a passion. His face turns red when he talks about it. If you ask him why, he just starts ranting about how the union took his money.

I have many other blue-collar, unionless, powerless, working-till-they-drop-because-they-have-no-other-choice friends who live in Michigan, who for whatever vague reasons think this "Right To Work" movement is a good thing.

What they heck are they thinking? I just don't get it.
 

Some just say it's a "I got mine, F everybody else" mentality.  Then others weigh in. 

proud2BlibKansan (94,529 posts)
67. I know teachers who hate unions.

And they aren't poorly educated.

Some are right wing fundies who disagree with our union's stance on social issues. Some want merit pay and hate the union for opposing it. Some resent the union protecting teachers they consider ineffective.
 

Response to Lesleymo (Original post)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
customerserviceguy (13,959 posts)
7. I've been in one for about four years now

And I've had it with them, for various reasons. I can't be treated as a bad employee, nor can I be recognized for being superior, so it seems that I'm just perceived by my management and my customers as being mediocre.

I can understand what your friend is thinking.

Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #7)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:18 AM
 IdaBriggs (5,315 posts)
18. I get it. Hard workers get paid the same as lazy ones.

Lazy workers are protected; after a while, you feel like a fool for working hard, when the other guy gets paid the same as you, and sits on his butt all day.

Please remember this: being lazy becomes a habit. Being a bad worker becomes a habit. Keep your self-respect/integrity. Keep being true to yourself.

 

Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #45)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 12:43 PM
 IdaBriggs (5,315 posts)
72. Sit around playing cards while other people work --

Or take naps, and yell at other workers for disturbing you --

These are stories my family has shared (see below).

Yes, it happens in non-union shops, too. (Especially where relatives have been hired - lol!) But in a union shop, the members PAY DUES to be treated like that. In a non-union workplace, one receives a paycheck without that deduction.

 

Response to Lesleymo (Original post)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:51 AM
 RevStPatrick (1,486 posts)
14. Maybe his union sucked?

I was in a union many years ago.
My local was store-bought, mob run, and did not do anything for us.
I went to a meeting one time, and asked some simple question about something.
The next day, the local rep came to the store to follow up.
He took me aside and suggested that maybe this industry was not for me, and maybe I should consider a career somewhere else.
 

MrYikes (420 posts)
15. You don't get it because you have not been a union worker.

I started with the IBEW making $2.25 an hour. I made $20 an hour with the musicians union. I made over $14k a year in the teamsters union (in 1966). I left the teamsters union in 95. I hold no love for unions.
As with any business unions have become a money generator and that has become their focus. They institute a high initiation fee and allow a fast turnover which generates considerable income for the union and then organize themselves so that there is little operating costs other than executive salaries. The unions have lost the trust of the workers, but since there is no alternative the workers stay in line (and the union knows and counts on this).
 

Response to Lesleymo (Original post)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:13 AM
 IdaBriggs (5,315 posts)
17. I can explain: THE CORRUPTION.

I live in Michigan. My father (rest his soul) was salary at GM as an investigator. My FIL is a retired Teamster.

Both HATE(d) the unions.

It isn't how good you are as to whether you will be "protected" - it is "who you know." My father dealt with workers who were thieves (stealing parts from the factory for fun and profit); they would catch them, get them convicted in court, and they would be back on the factory floor (usually stealing again) within days. Then there were the guys who came to work drunk or drugged out; people get hurt when that happens, but the union always managed to "protect" the "chosen ones" - you know, the ones with relatives in power.

One of the cases I remember as a child that had my father livid furious involved a "union rep" who had other people punch his time card in, and then didn't actually bother to come to work. Video cameras were still pretty new back then, so my father was tickled pink because they got a camera, and then video taped the guy mowing his lawn, working around his yard, etc. FOR TWO WEEKS while his time card showed him "at work collecting overtime pay." Evidence presented, but guy not fired -why? Because the union traded PARKING LOT LIGHTS (a safety issue for all the people who worked there) in return for this guy getting to keep his job.

 

Response to 1gobluedem (Reply #68)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
nadinbrzezinski (112,907 posts)
95. Would you like me to share some local stories?

In another union?

Unions have a lot of self reflection to do...I mean that...and need to do some cleaning house, double mean that.

Suffice it to say that at this point the union my husband belongs to is a good example of the troubles, not the good things. 

Response to olegramps (Reply #31)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 10:25 AM
 IdaBriggs (5,315 posts)
33. "...allowing cronyism and outright gangsters to become entrench[ed]..."

My family's experiences have ranged over the course of 40 years, and are all Michigan auto industry related.

I believe the word "entrenched" is an accurate description.

I did not support the "right to work for less" bill. I am confident that with "optional union dues" becoming the norm, membership is about to take a dive.

By laying down with the dogs, the union leaders appear to be covered with fleas. They still exist; now they have to woo their members.

The question of "what have you done for me lately?" is going to be asked.

I predict it is going to get UGLY.

 

Response to Lesleymo (Original post)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 11:23 AM
 Taverner (50,938 posts)
48. Fox News. Any other explanation is incomplete.

Lazy as always. 

Recursion (19,110 posts)
65. Yes. The fact that the left doesn't get what turns workers off is a big part of the problem.

Corruption. Nepotism. Being forced to pay dues to an organization you didn't vote to join that (in too many cases) only helps the family and friends of the reps. Being told to sit down and wait your turn when you're objectively better at the job than the guy who has 10 years on you. Waiting two days to unload the pallets that are sitting right there because one group of people has to take it down the ramp while another group of people has to put it on the truck itself. Wages that haven't gone up. Nationals that are more interested in keeping the current workers' privileges than helping out the ones who are starting out. Locals that refuse to do anything to get rid of workers that are dangerous, incompetent, or outright criminal -- and in fact, locals that spend tons of time and money keeping them in their jobs while you stay two rungs below them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965310

[Wineslob]

Recursion (19,110 posts)
65. Yes. The fact that the left doesn't get what turns workers off is a big part of the problem.

Corruption. Nepotism. Being forced to pay dues to an organization you didn't vote to join that (in too many cases) only helps the family and friends of the reps. Being told to sit down and wait your turn when you're objectively better at the job than the guy who has 10 years on you. Waiting two days to unload the pallets that are sitting right there because one group of people has to take it down the ramp while another group of people has to put it on the truck itself. Wages that haven't gone up. Nationals that are more interested in keeping the current workers' privileges than helping out the ones who are starting out. Locals that refuse to do anything to get rid of workers that are dangerous, incompetent, or outright criminal -- and in fact, locals that spend tons of time and money keeping them in their jobs while you stay two rungs below them.

Not long for the DUmp world......

[USA4ME]

Nice to see a few have peeked from behind the curtain into the real world, if even for a brief second.

I think when unions first formed they had some of the right ideas.  First of all, there would have been no reason for unions to form if employers had treated them right, and there is a history of employers behaving in ways that were inappropriate and unsafe.

But unions left the reason they formed and turned into wanting more than what was reasonable.  Like a lot of movements, instead of just correcting the ship, they went way beyond and swung the pendulum the other way to where the company was working for them and not for the customers.

.

[jukin]

Name one thing that unions have ever done to help the host organism survive much less thrive. ONE THING.

I also wonder why unions are never prosecuted under RICO laws?  They do collude to **** over the company and or taxpayers and they should be. I think we all know that unions are just another form of organized crime, run by real organized crime.

[BlueStateSaint]

I'm surprised that Ohama Steve hasn't chimed in on that one.

[Bad Dog]

Rush talked all day about how unions are a money laundering operation for the democraps.

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Union Thugs Demolish Clint Tarver’s Iconic Lansing,Michigan Hot Dog Cart [Photo-Donation Link] Update: Thugs Yelled “N*gger Uncle Tom” Update 2: Revenge For Americans For Prosperity Catering Gig (?) Update 3: A Romney Supporter, All We Need To Know

http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2012/12/12/union-thugs-demolish-clint-tarvers-iconic-lansingmichigan-hot-dog-cart-photo-donation-link/

This is what happens to uppity blacks who leave the plantation.

*******ed cowards.

[Carl]

proud2BlibKansan (94,529 posts)
67. I know teachers who hate unions.

And they aren't poorly educated.

Some are right wing fundies who disagree with our union's stance on social issues. Some want merit pay and hate the union for opposing it. Some resent the union protecting teachers they consider ineffective.

Probably no chance the useless harpy felt a flush of guilt writing that did you Anne?

[GOBUCKS]

proud2BlibKansan (94,529 posts)
67. I know teachers who hate unions.

And they aren't poorly educated.

Some are right wing fundies who disagree with our union's stance on social issues. Some want merit pay and hate the union for opposing it. Some resent the union protecting teachers they consider ineffective.

It's embarrassing to see a former DOTY writing that.

I think she should be stripped of her title.

[98ZJUSMC]

uote
Response to Lesleymo (Original post)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 07:21 AM
customerserviceguy (13,959 posts)
7. I've been in one for about four years now

And I've had it with them, for various reasons. I can't be treated as a bad employee, nor can I be recognized for being superior, so it seems that I'm just perceived by my management and my customers as being mediocre.

I can understand what your friend is thinking.

Quote
Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #7)
Wed Dec 12, 2012, 09:18 AM
 IdaBriggs (5,315 posts)
18. I get it. Hard workers get paid the same as lazy ones.

Lazy workers are protected; after a while, you feel like a fool for working hard, when the other guy gets paid the same as you, and sits on his butt all day.

Equality of result, (D)Ullards.  It's what you want right?  After all, economic incentive has nothing to do with economic performance, job creation or wealth creation does it?

Please remember this: being lazy becomes a habit. Being a bad worker becomes a habit. Keep your self-respect/integrity. Keep being true to yourself.

....and with that, you have just undercut every pro-welfare state argument you will ever try to make.

[Delmar]

What they heck are they thinking? I just don't get it.

I always resented being called brother by a bunch of low life scum that would screw me over faster than the company would.

They all would push any brother out of an airplane to get a shot at the next higher labor grade or an easier job.

[Karin]

Wow, SSB.  That was heartbreaking.  Everyone should hit the link and read up.  It's been linked to a lot of high traffic blogs, and a support/donation system has been set up. 

This shit burns me up.   

[DLR Pyro]

Not long for the DUmp world......

surprisingly he has made it to 19,000+ posts.

My one brief fleeting experience with the unions (IATSE, stage hands union) was a few years back when a few misguided fellow cast members at the Company I work thought the pyro department would be better off under a union so they did the card count thing but told us that signing the cards didn't indicate we wanted to join the union, just the cards were to show interest in the union coming on property and giving us their dog and pony show after which we would be able to vote yea or nay on becoming union members.  

Turns out the union lied to us and the people who returned the signed cards were a simple majority (not hard to do in a department of 27 people) and the next thing we were having a meeting with the union where they told us that they now represented us and they were there to answer any questions we had about our new union.  There was alot of push back from the majority of the dept, when asked what the union would do for us we were told make our lives easier (whatever the hell that meant, since we are treated very well by the Company) and when questioned about dues, they couldn't answer what our dues would be but said with the salary increase they would negotiate for us, the dues would be "revenue neutral" (which meant we would net 0 $$ increase since any raise would be absorbed by the dues).  

After about an hour of hearing our objections to being railroaded into the union, the head union boss stood up and said "Well I've heard alot of words said today and frankly it's all water under the bridge.  We represent you now and there's no backing out of it now".  Wrong thing to say to a group of people who pride themselves on being professionals and who don't flinch at working long hours to get the job done.  We pushed back, took it the NLRB who deposed several of us (myself included).  The conclusion that the local NLRB office came to was that there was deception and fraud in the card count process and kicked our case to Washington DC, who took an interest and was going to hold a hearing with possible criminal charges against the union for deceptive practices.  I was on my way into work one day when I got a call from my co-worker who filed the case with then NLRB and he said he had just received a call from the union boss who said that they had reviewed our "relationship" and didn't think it was in either partie's best interest to continue a relationship and that they wanted out of representing us.  We fought the union and won.  

Since then we hired a person who also works at Universal Studios.  One day he mentioned that if we were interested in us being represented bu IATSE like they are at Universal Studios that he could put us in touch with their people.  He was promptly told never to bring up the subject of unions in our department again.

[Ballygrl]

Wow, I keep thinking that thread has to be fake with all the anti-union responses because I never expected to read those posts at DU.

[Chris_]

If I had to wait for an electrician every time I needed to plug something in, I'd never get any work done.

What a stupid-assed way to run a business.

[Ogre]

proud2BlibKansan (94,529 posts)
67. I know teachers who hate unions.

And they aren't poorly educated.

Some are right wing fundies who disagree with our union's stance on social issues. Some want merit pay and hate the union for opposing it. Some resent the union protecting teachers they consider ineffective.

I wonder how long Anne and Plagiarizing Pam would last at their jobs without their union.  My guess is less than a school year before these two "teachers" were let go for inability to execute a basic course of instruction.

[GOBUCKS]

I wonder how long Anne and Plagiarizing Pam would last at their jobs without their union.  My guess is less than a school year before these two "teachers" were let go for inability to execute a basic course of instruction.

At least in Wichita they were able to shuffle Pam off to their juvenile delinquent warehousing operation.

[Ogre]

At least in Wichita they were able to shuffle Pam off to their juvenile delinquent warehousing operation.

Plagiarizing Pam at least was moved to a position that can't possibly harm anyone more than they already are.  I suspect that Anne would be sent to juvie as well if her administrator could.  I can't believe that she is actually trusted with educating anything given the stupidity of her posts at the DUmp.

[Vagabond]

I'm ambivalent towards  unions.  Typially unionization comes about as a cause of poor management, making them an effect more than a cause.  

I actually recommended, very quietly, that my fellow employees unionize after the company  put all of their pay at SAE rate for government workers.  I told them that it was the last raise most of them were going to see without leaving the company, and the company would use it's action to justify eroding other benefits that were more valuable.  A few years later, and well, I hate being right.

[Wineslob]

I tried to Google it, but Google Fu failed. I seem to remember a power plant being built in the late 70's early 80's that went 5-6 X's over cost because of Union members padding their pockets. One example was a particular valve that kept getting broken. Said valve could only be replaced by a Union valve fitter (?) at an unbelievable (labor) price.

If I remember right this valve was found broken at least once a day, for years.

[Undies]

The DUmmies' dreamy vision of unions is an overview (it always is).  It is about a collected crowd of workers sticking it in the eye of the producers.  Their idea of a union is Norma Rea -- but it's not about Norma herself (it never is).  It is not about the betterment of any individual.  It is about the tingling leg of socialism, collectivism, and the control of a faceless group.

[zeitgeist]

Glad to see this made it over.  Who's mole is Ban?

BanTheGOP (954 posts)
115. The Unions are the key to President Obama's progressive transformation of our country

This is one key fact that we forget: the unions today do not just guarantee jobs and benefits. What is SIGNIFICANT is that we can help President Obama and our progressive Democrats transform this country from a horrific, GOP-sponsored capitalist, isolationist, repressive country to that of an environmentally-friendly, peaceful, progressively global society. What unions main goals are to ensure that pensions and existing jobs stay in place, so our union dues are used to help make this political and societal transformation possible.

With "right to work" policies coming into play, this THREATENS this peaceful, very-necessary transformation and allows the GOP to fester in its death throes. It's time to get medieval on these cretins' asses NOW and take them out, politically. Otherwise it will be more than tents we destroy. It's that simple.

 

 

coalition_unwilling (13,555 posts)
141. They aren't thinking (in answer to your question). One cruel legacy of McCarthyism and

50 years of red baiting is that critical thinking is gone, dead now for some 30 years.

As the late George Carlin so eloquently put it, "They want you just smart enough to run the machines but not smart enough to realize how badly you're being ****ed over."

Does your friend understand that 1% of the country controls 40% of its wealth? Does he blame unions for that sorry state of affairs?

1%, 1%, citizens arrest Andy, citizens arrest, Andy

[thundley4]

I tried to Google it, but Google Fu failed. I seem to remember a power plant being built in the late 70's early 80's that went 5-6 X's over cost because of Union members padding their pockets. One example was a particular valve that kept getting broken. Said valve could only be replaced by a Union valve fitter (?) at an unbelievable (labor) price.

If I remember right this valve was found broken at least once a day, for years.

For some strange reason we get a lot of motors sent in on Thursdays and Fridays that have to be fixed ASAP because a line is down.  This happens at several of our customers.

[GOP Congress]

Frankly, one only needs to go back to Sandy and the response of the union workers preventing the electrical workers from out of state to help with the repair efforts. Pure societal business masochism at its finest.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/11/02/union-red-tape-in-nj-causes-alabama-recovery-crew-to-head-home/

Glad to see this made it over.  Who's mole is Ban?


BanTheGOP (954 posts)
115. The Unions are the key to President Obama's progressive transformation of our country

This is one key fact that we forget: the unions today do not just guarantee jobs and benefits. What is SIGNIFICANT is that we can help President Obama and our progressive Democrats transform this country from a horrific, GOP-sponsored capitalist, isolationist, repressive country to that of an environmentally-friendly, peaceful, progressively global society. What unions main goals are to ensure that pensions and existing jobs stay in place, so our union dues are used to help make this political and societal transformation possible.

With "right to work" policies coming into play, this THREATENS this peaceful, very-necessary transformation and allows the GOP to fester in its death throes. It's time to get medieval on these cretins' asses NOW and take them out, politically. Otherwise it will be more than tents we destroy. It's that simple.

Ha ha...good find!! Maybe Rush Limbaugh is doing it. This is his interpretation of unions, minus the ranting.

[Chris_]

coalition_unwilling (13,555 posts)
141. They aren't thinking (in answer to your question). One cruel legacy of McCarthyism and

50 years of red baiting is that critical thinking is gone, dead now for some 30 years.

After 50 years of liberals corrupting the public school system, critical thinking is dead and nobody knows who Joe McCarthy is.

Pat yourself on the back.