A political question for our Catholic members

[debk]

While I agree with the other Catholics who have already responded....

I think there's also a lot of "don't ask, don't tell" in the Catholic Church, just as there is in any other denomination.

If the priest doesn't know you had an abortion....how can he deny giving you Communion?

If the priest doesn't know you cheat on your spouse...which is a sin....how can he deny giving you Communion?

He can't.

However, if you walk in to the confessional....and say, "Father, I have sinned..." and YOU proceed to TELL the priest of your sin...then he has knowledge of your sin and must act appropriately within the bounds of the confessional, and mete out appropriate "punishment". What one tells the priest in confession - is PRIVATE. He cannot go telling others what you have told him, nor can he tell others how or why you are being "punished".

It takes a big thing, to prevent the priest from giving one Communion, and even more to become excommunicated.

I grew up in the Episcopal Church and back in the day when the Church was so very similar to Catholic...divorce was "allowed", however remarriage was not. Though my father was a widower, my step-mother(she was Lutheran) was divorced 14 yrs before they were married. Because his remarriage was not "hidden" from the Church and it was against the laws of the Episcopal Church, my dad was excommunicated in 1966 when they got married. He could enter the Church and even attend Mass, but he could not take Communion, nor could he become a "legal" member of the Church.

I think it was sometime in the late 70's, after the Episcopal Church ceased excommunication for remarriage after divorce, that my dad and stepmom had a "ceremony" in the church. They stopped at the church my dad was excommunicated in Iowa on a trip from Illinois to Nebraska, and the priest "married" them in "the Eyes of The Church".

Like anything else, churches evolve to "keep up with the times" and even more importantly to maintain or increase membership, because those members - and their money - is what keeps the particular church in existence.

I attended a Catholic Church all through college and after until I married another Episcopalian and my kids were raised Episcopal. My youngest still is, though my daughter and her family belong to a mega-church called Faith Promise. It's one of those non-denominational churches, that has a service lasting an hour or so. First half is like a gospel rock concert and the second half is the preacher in jeans and a t-shirt holding a bible in one hand and sprinting back and forth across the stage in a frenzy of emotion. Her husband was raised Southern Baptist and they opted for FP because it was "neutral". A lot of their friends go there, for the same reason. It has evolved from Baptist "roots" into something more enticing to those who want religion, but without the "rules" of more traditional established religions. (we attended one time with SIL's parents and his mom was appalled at the circus-like atmosphere...)

When the other half and I got together, almost 19 yrs ago, he a lifelong Catholic, tried to adjust to attending Episcopal, but I opted to switch to Catholic. Even so, I would have left the Episcopal Church when an openly gay priest became a bishop. I'm pretty tolerant of many of the "evolving" changes the Church has made, but not that one!

[Ausonius]

While I agree with the other Catholics who have already responded....

I think there's also a lot of "don't ask, don't tell" in the Catholic Church, just as there is in any other denomination.

If the priest doesn't know you had an abortion....how can he deny giving you Communion?

If the priest doesn't know you cheat on your spouse...which is a sin....how can he deny giving you Communion?

He can't. ...

When the other half and I got together, almost 19 yrs ago, he a lifelong Catholic, tried to adjust to attending Episcopal, but I opted to switch to Catholic. Even so, I would have left the Episcopal Church when an openly gay priest became a bishop. I'm pretty tolerant of many of the "evolving" changes the Church has made, but not that one!

Many thanks for your story!

Rock-n-roll churches have grown immensely at the expense of the traditional ones: I suppose the best thing one can say is that the people are still spending some time with religious thoughts, although how one can pray and meditate with the "circus atmosphere" I have no idea.

Quite true about priests not being able to deny Holy Communion in most cases: my problem is that politicians openly voting for things inimical to basic morality (Biden, Pelosi, the Kennedys)are still allowed to act like they are Catholic.  The bishops in most cases look the other way.

[Celtic Rose]

Many thanks for your story!

Rock-n-roll churches have grown immensely at the expense of the traditional ones: I suppose the best thing one can say is that the people are still spending some time with religious thoughts, although how one can pray and meditate with the "circus atmosphere" I have no idea.

Quite true about priests not being able to deny Holy Communion in most cases: my problem is that politicians openly voting for things inimical to basic morality (Biden, Pelosi, the Kennedys)are still allowed to act like they are Catholic.  The bishops in most cases look the other way.

That was one of the reasons that I sought out a more traditional church, drums and electric guitars don't generally inspire a worshipful mindset for me.  Everybody is different, but for me the Orthodox Church, with incense and traditional music works well to inspire me to be more worshipful. 

On the question of communion, I'm not Catholic, but I believe that the Orthodox church and the Catholic church has very similar views on most of the sacraments.  I was taught that we risk harming our own soul if we take communion unprepared, including having unconfessed and unreported sins on our souls.  I know that my priest will frequently say before communion that the sacrament is only for those who have prepared appropriately, and then he trusts us to examine our conscience.

[Eupher]

That was one of the reasons that I sought out a more traditional church, drums and electric guitars don't generally inspire a worshipful mindset for me.  Everybody is different, but for me the Orthodox Church, with incense and traditional music works well to inspire me to be more worshipful. 

On the question of communion, I'm not Catholic, but I believe that the Orthodox church and the Catholic church has very similar views on most of the sacraments.  I was taught that we risk harming our own soul if we take communion unprepared, including having unconfessed and unreported sins on our souls.  I know that my priest will frequently say before communion that the sacrament is only for those who have prepared appropriately, and then he trusts us to examine our conscience.

That was a big reason that Mrs E and I recently left our church of 5 years -- the pastor insists on bringing that kind of music into worship, this despite the fact he is ill-prepared to handle that task and nobody else is either. 

People can worship however they choose, but to try to make one size fit all generally doesn't work - at least for me.

Leave the damned drum sets, guitars, amplifiers and microphones for the concert hall if that's what you intend to have.

[Ausonius]

Composer Igor Stravinsky was asked why he bothered to create music for a Latin Mass, right when the Catholic Church was allowing the vernacular.

His response was that when one addresses God, one should use a special language untouched by the commonalities of daily life. 

The same rule can - should - apply to the musical style as well.

[Eupher]

What I've found is that decisions concerning music and styles of music really have no basis in the liturgy -- it's all about popularity and bringing the stuff that people want to hear.

Some people just aren't comfortable unless they're hearing pipe organs and instrumentals that are NOT sound reinforced (I'm one of those) vice all the gear and crap they can schlep into the "sanctuary."

Yeah. "Sanctuary."

Right.

[debk]

I want the solemnity and the reverence of a more traditional Mass. My early years through junior high was in a High Espiscopal Church which is so similar to the Catholic Mass today. I guess it's my comfort level for how I want Church to be. The prayers are the same ones I had to memorize as a kid, and though many of the hymns have become more "modern" so to speak, I can deal with it as for the most part, the respectfulness of what I want during Mass, is still there.

We went to my daughter's church because she was being baptized. I had an issue with it, as she was christened in the Episcopal Church as an infant, but bit my tongue (almost all the way through!!) and attended.

She told us where we needed to sit (we were with her husband's parents), and about halfway through the rock concert part (the main part of the church is like a big wedge shaped auditorium with a stage across the front, tiered up type seating with a balcony around 2/3's)..... this wall of drapery beside us opens up and behind glass in this small room, my daughter comes out in a white robe ( she had a swim suit top and shorts on underneath), her husband and another guy are with her, she gets in what looks like a water trough and the two guys dunk her under the water. Gets out and is now in a very wet see through white robe, go out the door in the back of the room as another person comes into the room to get baptized.

She and hubs were back sitting with us about halfway through the minister's preaching. However, during the baptizing, which is being flashed on these big screens up on the front walls, with rock gospel blaring out from the electric guitars, keyboards and drums, everyone singing and be-bopping around both on the stage and in the audience - uh, congregation - with strobe lighting and other colored spotlights whipping around. M and I were just kind of stunned and SIL's mother leaned over to me and said ...."this is NOT the Baptist Church I know!" and she's 3-4 years younger than I am!

The music was fun - I guess that's the best way to describe it - but when I left I didn't feel like I'd been to church, for all the sense that makes.

M and I kind of looked at it as at least they are getting some form of religion and so are the grandchildren. I have since had a couple of people tell me they think the place is a "cult", which I have to admit, creeps me out as the minister kind of reminds me of that guy Jones who got all his members to drink the kool-aid. I do know that in the 2-3 years since they became members, she has changed a great deal. (My Runnin' Buddy who has known her since she was in her teens, refers to her as The Stepford Wife, which is considerably kinder than how my son refers to his sister!)

The "campus" we went to was quite large when we were there a bit over a year ago, and since they have been building a new section half again bigger than the existing church. It's supposedly the fastest growing church in the area, and has 4 locations and an "internet campus" too. Thousands of members and even more weekly attendees. They even have a wiki page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Promise_Church

To me, it just isn't church, but maybe I'm just turning into a fussy old lady. 

[J P Sousa]

I did not read through the entire thread so forgive me if this has been brought up; Catholic teachers (nuns and some priests) and other leaders ignore the subject of abortion and in a few instances had abortion promoters as guest speakers.

As a Catholic, this makes me very angry.

A politician claims to be Catholic but ignores it's teachings. That is just a politician lying and is bad enough, but Catholic leaders ????   Unacceptable.

To prove my point;
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/575826614.html

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/05/07/catholic_georgetown_university_invites_proabortion_kathleen_sebelius_to_speak
.