Does Labor need capital to exist?

[Freeper]

efhmc (8,800 posts)

Does Labor need capital to exist?


 
We know that capital is of no use without labor but what about the other way round?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021261515

If you are willing to do labor for free then no, if you want a paycheck then capital is needed to pay you. Only a DUmmy wouldn't understand this.

Vincardog (16,516 posts)
1. Labor is the source of capital. Labor existed before it and can exist without it

Good luck getting people to work for you without paying them.

Vincardog (16,516 posts)
6. We are brain washed into believing we need a job to get $ to buy the crap we see on TV.

Funny I work because I like to have food to eat, water to drink and a roof over my head.

Vincardog (16,516 posts)
10. Financial transactions that create capital are financial masturbation. They do not create

wealth. They destroy productivity.
The situation you describe is where the financial segment of society is destroying the rest of society
much as any other cancer would.

 

efhmc (8,800 posts)
11. Bartering labor or self sustaining work don't need capital.

That would mean you had to work to get your stuff.

alcibiades_mystery (25,038 posts)
19. Labor is the process of transforming a world into the usable and the pleasurable

Capital is the theft and accumulation of the surplus generated by that process. Of course labor doesn't need capital to exist. Labor exists in itself and for itself. Capital is parasitic on labor in the first and last instance.

Now, capital presents the illusion of being necessary for the labor process, especially when it has developed to the point of full (real) subsumption, as in our current social configuration. One appears to be unable to transform the world without the influx of "capital" or "risk," which also masquerades as "organization" (where organization and leadership are only the form of the the theft of labor power in any given historical instance). But capital is nothing but the surplus that has already been stolen from the workers and accumulated in the hands of the capitalists. This little illusion is belied by every child who makes a makeshift tool for some purpose in a field, alley, or backyard. Labor needs capital only insofar as capital currently holds all of humanity in a stranglehold, as a hostage to its own drive for accumulation.

So making a profit is theft now. 

[notaDUmmie]

So making a profit is theft now.

I guess they don't realize that Skinner, Elad and EarlG make a profit from the DUmp.

DUmbasses, they don't even realize that they provide the capital for Skinner et al to make their profits...

[EagleKeeper]

This is so incredibly simple to answer I'm just a little surprised that there wasn't a DUmmie able to chime in with a coherent answer.

At it's simplest level the answer is yes.

Again at its simplest level, without capital are you able to provide labor? In other words, if you wanted to be warm (capital) would it be worth it to drag yourself outside to cut wood (labor)?

Could you set up a lemonade stand with out investment (capital), you know, the wood for the stand, the signs, lemons, water. Without capital labor means nothing.

This is just another example, among legion, why DUmmies fail in all things related to economics.

[RobJohnson]

ALL DUMMIES

What do we care. Labor is not needed to get free rent and food from Public Aid.

[USA4ME]

Their mistake is believing that capital equals money.  Money can be used to represent the value of capital, but capital is much more than just that.

Can labor exist without money? Sure.  But even bartering work for some other good or service in return is still engaging in the exchange of capital.

.

[LC EFA]

efhmc (8,800 posts)

Does Labor need capital to exist?


 
We know that capital is of no use without labor but what about the other way round?

Ask the Russians. They experimented with such a system.

[EagleKeeper]

alcibiades_mystery (25,038 posts)
19. Labor is the process of transforming a world into the usable and the pleasurable What comes before labor? My answer is desire, it's also called investment. Without desire from where comes the labor and after labor what do you call "usable and pleasurable" That translates into profit.

Capital is the theft and accumulation of the surplus generated by that process. Of course labor doesn't need capital to exist. Labor exists in itself and for itself. Capital is parasitic on labor in the first and last instance. What reason would I have to get off the couch unless there was some way to profit from the exercise. Warmth, food, water, survival...I'm pretty sure these things have value, that's called profit and requires an initial investment.

Now, capital presents the illusion of being necessary for the labor process, especially when it has developed to the point of full (real) subsumption, as in our current social configuration. One appears to be unable to transform the world without the influx of "capital" or "risk," which also masquerades as "organization" (where organization and leadership are only the form of the the theft of labor power in any given historical instance). But capital is nothing but the surplus that has already been stolen from the workers and accumulated in the hands of the capitalists. This little illusion is belied by every child who makes a makeshift tool for some purpose in a field, alley, or backyard. Labor needs capital only insofar as capital currently holds all of humanity in a stranglehold, as a hostage to its own drive for accumulation.Capital or risk in a basic way translates directly into inititive, without that you wait around for someone else to solve a problem.

[zeitgeist]

I guess they don't realize that Skinner, Elad and EarlG make a profit from the DUmp.

DUmbasses, they don't even realize that they provide the capital for Skinner et al to make their profits...

Apparently their new payment model was not doing as well as hoped.  They have gone to the pay what you can model.  I am still scratching my head at how the DUmmies wouldn't pay full retail for such a noble product.

Skins and friends have made a pretty tidy "profit" off the DUmmies over the years and no, they don't really get  that Skins is in it for the Dough ray me, me, me.  If the DUmp turned negative it would fold faster than Superman on laundry day.

[ChuckJ]

I had to H5 Freeper for this one. There's a whole lot of stupid in that thread. That much stupid should make them universally famous. Rush would probably enjoy that DU thread.

Freep must have a big boat to be able to bring that much stupid from the island.

[RobJohnson]

.

Freep must have a big boat to be able to bring that much stupid from the island.

Did he use capital to buy the boat or did he barter for it?

[BlueStateSaint]

Did he use capital to buy the boat or did he barter for it?

Yes--it was DUmb**** approved-capital.  Das Kapital.

[Chris_]

efhmc (8,800 posts)

We know that capital is of no use without labor but what about the other way round?

I've got two words for you... indentured servitude.

I'd rather trade my labor for capital that I can use.  Good luck with your little Commie dreams, pinhead.

[Chris_]

Did he use capital to buy the boat or did he barter for it?

You know what kind of boat you can get with zero capital?  A rusted-out shell from a 1957 Chevrolet pickup floating on water jugs.

[RobJohnson]

You know what kind of boat you can get with zero capital?  A rusted-out shell from a 1957 Chevrolet pickup floating on water jugs.

Nice jugs! 

[EagleKeeper]

You know what kind of boat you can get with zero capital?  A rusted-out shell from a 1957 Chevrolet pickup floating on water jugs.

That, dear DUmmies, is an epic example of capitalism. It dosen't get much finer then that.

Inspiration/investment: Let's get off of this communist paradise and make something of ourselves.

Labor: Build a boat out of a 1957 cheby and go to the capitalist deamon Amerikkka.

Profit: It's all up to them now.

[J P Sousa]

ALL DUMMIES

What do we care. Labor is not needed to get free rent and food from Public Aid.

That was my first thought but........most labor is being replaced with machines (computers).......unfortunately, those on Public Aid vote....


.

[thundley4]

Vincardog (16,516 posts)
10. Financial transactions that create capital are financial masturbation. They do not create

wealth. They destroy productivity.
The situation you describe is where the financial segment of society is destroying the rest of society
much as any other cancer would.

Making money by loaning money to create a business, (which hires people for their labor), to make money is financial masturbation?

[RobJohnson]

That was my first thought but........most labor is being replaced with machines (computers).......unfortunately, those on Public Aid vote....


.

True.

They also have plenty of time to vote as they have no jobs.

[sybilll]

Making money by loaning money to create a business, (which hires people for their labor), to make money is financial masturbation?

No, it's edgy, like something that would be said on Newsroom.    And man they sure love that show. They act as though it is real news. Dopes. 

[jukin]

I just saw this thread and maybe someone else posted but it is not capital it is the ability to accumulate capital For those lurking DUchebags that means winning. When people like me quit then that is when the other team wins. Today that means a team from another nation. A team that has probably been subsidized to the detriment of their country.

Imagine that Peyton Manning gets a notice from the government that says for every TD you throw for we want 80% of what you make.  How long does this guy start playing hard. Putting in 120 hours working out?

Answer not long. Then everyone gets a lower standard of living.

A lower standard of living, or misery, is what socialism always ALWAYS brings.  A-L-W-A-Y-Y-S!!!!!

[Mr Mannn]

So if I understand this correctly...
All the 23 million unemployed people need to do is get together vote up twinkles on a product and start working. They don't need capital, investment or even land, all of that will magically appear.

I say its time to lead by example. The labor unions should break away from their parent companies and show the rest of us that labor alone creates jobs. That would surely sink capitalism once and for all.

[Freeper]

I had to H5 Freeper for this one. There's a whole lot of stupid in that thread. That much stupid should make them universally famous. Rush would probably enjoy that DU thread.

Freep must have a big boat to be able to bring that much stupid from the island.

I have a barge that I call the Joe Biden. 

[obumazombie]

Evidently the libs have never heard of lights out manufacturing.

[RobJohnson]

I have a barge that I call the Joe Biden. 

 

[JohnnyReb]

Without capital there would be no large boxes for the homeless to live in.